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-   -   Amsterdam (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/amsterdam-1678785/)

Tulips Mar 19th, 2020 05:58 AM

Amsterdam
 
https://www.parool.nl/video/dick-maa...crisis~p135232


Amsterdam as you have never seen it.

hetismij2 Mar 19th, 2020 07:37 AM

Thanks Tulips!

schnauzer Mar 19th, 2020 07:40 PM

My son lives in Amsterdam and he said they were in lockdown but not like the Chinese! Whatever that meant.. at least they are taking things seriously unlike other countries. A friend in Florida said spring break kids were partying just like normal.. huge crowds gathering together. And footage of the Savanna market only a few days ago.. crazy .. what arenít some people getting here? No wonder the USA (and other places) are in such strife... apparently there are as many cases in New York as there are in the whole of the UK. Canít remember my source but saw it only a couple of hours ago. Gawd help the world...

Tulips Mar 19th, 2020 10:06 PM

My kids live in Amsterdam too. In the Netherlands, and also the UK, there is a different approach.
If everyone is in quarantaine, the virus cannot spread anymore. But as soon as you lift the quarantaine, it will start to spread again. So keeping limited numbers of people out and about will cause people to be infected, and this will lead to herd immunity. In theory at least.

Here in Belgium I heard the leading virologist yesterday, saying that schools should have been kept open. Better for children to get the infection now, otherwise they will just get infected again after restrictions are lifted and it will get even worse then.

I really don't know. I fear that health services are going to be overwhelmed in the Netherlands and the UK.

hetismij2 Mar 20th, 2020 12:28 AM

The schools in NL were closed because of the teachers. We already have a teacher shortage, and with more and more becoming ill it wasn't possible/sensible to keep schools open.
My Grandson's school closed before they were officially told to, so they have had an extra week at home. He and his basisschool borther are both doing digital schooling, and the younger one says he prefers t to real school!
All the pubs restaurants etc closed, though the coffeeshops are reopened for takeaway, as a re some restaurants.
I have no idea if this system will work or not, but imho they are not doing anything like enough testing. My son's friend has been ill, and alone, for nearly three weeks now after getting back from Tenerife, but they won't test him. A friend drops off groceries by hhis back door for him.
Even sons GF, a nurse, had to wait nearly a week before getting her test (negative thank goodness!).

At least up here, I don't know about elsewhere, there isnn't the panic buying you see in other countries.


Tulips Mar 20th, 2020 01:49 AM

Heti, the lack of tests may explain the difference in mortality rates;
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

It seems like there is a mortality of 3% in the Netherlands, and 1% in Belgium, but that may be because the number of cases in the Netherlands is vastly underreported. A relative in Brabant said her local hospital has only Corona patients now, and are starting a triage in tents outside.

hetismij2 Mar 20th, 2020 03:00 AM

Noord Brabant is particularly badly hit by it - a combination of skiing trips to Italy and Carnaval I think.
The village of Erpe, population 5000 has had 7 deaths so far.
They are beginning to move patients from Noord Brabant to other provinces now.

Most hospitals now have triage tents and a total shut down on non emergency/cancer treatments. I am waiting for an appointment with a specialist but who knows when that will happen?
Nursing homes no longer allow visitors, and most hospital have also stopped visitors, except for the dying (unless those are Corona patients).

As for the lack of testing, I just don't get it.

Tulips Mar 20th, 2020 04:47 AM

I know Heti, I have family in that area. Some are ill; but have not been tested as long as they are not sick enough to be admitted to hospital.

People know the symptoms, I think they know when they have it. But they are not counted in the total, as they have not been tested positive.

Dukey1 Mar 20th, 2020 09:55 AM

Ask yourself this question: If everyone is in quarantine, as was suggested above, "the virus cannot spread" but when they aren't it can spread to more people.

WHAT happens to the virus when everyone is in quarantine? Does it die? Does it go somewhere and wait? Seriously. The first question about ANY infectious agent that must be answered is always the same; "How does it move?" In this case we are told it can contaminate surfaces and other people by droplet spread. It supposedly can live up to three days on a surface (show me the evidence/citation if that isn't true). When it inhabits a person's body it what? Grows? Does it eventually die?

Tulips Mar 21st, 2020 07:10 AM

Dukey, I don't know, but at the moment the authorities are trying to keep it manageble, so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed. If 60% of the country is going to get infected, as the Dutch prime minister said, then it would be better if this happened over a period of a year, instead of weeks.

menachem Mar 26th, 2020 10:51 PM


Originally Posted by schnauzer (Post 17081399)
My son lives in Amsterdam and he said they were in lockdown but not like the Chinese! Whatever that meant.. at least they are taking things seriously unlike other countries. A friend in Florida said spring break kids were partying just like normal.. huge crowds gathering together. And footage of the Savanna market only a few days ago.. crazy .. what arenít some people getting here? No wonder the USA (and other places) are in such strife... apparently there are as many cases in New York as there are in the whole of the UK. Canít remember my source but saw it only a couple of hours ago. Gawd help the world...

The parks in Amsterdam were full, last weekend, but the streets were empty, because the city center is not an attractive destination right now

Netherlands is going for the "herd immunity" strategy, but we're not calling it that.

menachem Mar 26th, 2020 10:55 PM


Originally Posted by Tulips (Post 17081421)
My kids live in Amsterdam too. In the Netherlands, and also the UK, there is a different approach.
If everyone is in quarantaine, the virus cannot spread anymore. But as soon as you lift the quarantaine, it will start to spread again. So keeping limited numbers of people out and about will cause people to be infected, and this will lead to herd immunity. In theory at least.

Here in Belgium I heard the leading virologist yesterday, saying that schools should have been kept open. Better for children to get the infection now, otherwise they will just get infected again after restrictions are lifted and it will get even worse then.

I really don't know. I fear that health services are going to be overwhelmed in the Netherlands and the UK.

Our government is ready to sacrifice many lives to keep the economic status quo intact. Meanwhile NL is blocking the Coronabonds initiative at the European level. All our customary political reflexes are still intact. Also worth noting is the fact that we went from more than 10 IC beds/100000 to just over 6, because of deep cuts in health care, the last 10 years.

Personally I think there's a eugenic undertone to the Dutch strategy: I read the triage directive for IC patients yesterday: many people ending up on the wrong side of triage, myself included.

menachem Mar 26th, 2020 10:57 PM


Originally Posted by Tulips (Post 17082209)
Dukey, I don't know, but at the moment the authorities are trying to keep it manageble, so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed. If 60% of the country is going to get infected, as the Dutch prime minister said, then it would be better if this happened over a period of a year, instead of weeks.

Our testing strategy is flawed, so we don't actually know if the virus is "spreading", like our CDC (RIVM) assumes it does. We don't even know whether there is a viable immune respons after infection, nor do we know how long such immunity would last. Many other coronavirus strains (common cold) cause a response that lasts weeks, not even months. But our government declared on monday that it would be "just like getting measles".

Tulips Mar 27th, 2020 05:21 AM

Menachem, I have relatives in Brabant who are ill. Some are elderly, and are at home as long as their condition allows. It's clear they have the virus, but they have not been tested. I wonder if they count these patients in the total number of infected people.
The number of cases is almost certainly dramatically higher than stated.

These are very strange times;
The border between Belgium and the Netherlands is closed except for those who have a very good reason to cross.
With all the disfunction of Belgian politics, there is widespread approval of the current policy here

stayhome Mar 27th, 2020 05:40 AM

Thank you for the video and a friend of mine told me too that in France they were not taking it seriously. It it sad !


StCirq Mar 27th, 2020 06:22 AM

That may have been true about France a week ago, when people were cavorting around in the parks of Paris, but I don't know anyone in France right now who isn't taking it very seriously. There are hardly any cases at all....yet...where I live, but we are all sequestered at home and have to carry attestations with us if we leave the house to go to the few places that are allowed - grocery stores (one person in, one person out at a time, cashiers barricaded and wearing masks and gloves), pharmacies (one person at a time), agricultural coops (don't know what the rules are there), doctors' offices, etc. (and the etc. is a very short list if you're not considered an essential worker). Trains not running, very few buses. No restaurants, cafťs, bars, small businesses. Can't go for a walk, for yourself or to walk a dog, unless it's within 1 km from where you live, and you have to be alone. The French people's approval of the government actions is widespread, and those actions are expected to get more severe shortly. Yesterday was a record day for deaths from COVID in France, and it will only get worse.

MyriamC Mar 27th, 2020 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by Tulips (Post 17085287)
Menachem, I have relatives in Brabant who are ill. Some are elderly, and are at home as long as their condition allows. It's clear they have the virus, but they have not been tested. I wonder if they count these patients in the total number of infected people.

In Belgium only the tested people are counted in the total number of infected people. So, the total number of corona patients is supposed to be much, much higher than the 'official' numbers.
I presume same goes for the Netherlands.

StCirq Mar 27th, 2020 11:05 AM

Same here, and they are not counting deaths at home, presumably because they can't verify a cause of death. Horrible, and yes the numbers are undoubtedly exponentially more than what can be/is being reported.

menachem Mar 27th, 2020 10:58 PM


Originally Posted by Tulips (Post 17085287)
Menachem, I have relatives in Brabant who are ill. Some are elderly, and are at home as long as their condition allows. It's clear they have the virus, but they have not been tested. I wonder if they count these patients in the total number of infected people.
The number of cases is almost certainly dramatically higher than stated.

These are very strange times;
The border between Belgium and the Netherlands is closed except for those who have a very good reason to cross.
With all the disfunction of Belgian politics, there is widespread approval of the current policy here

I think Belgium is doing the sensible thing. Our entire strategy is flawed, we refuse Eurobond support to the hardest hit EU countries now, meanwhile we're asking Germany and Belgium for IC beds. Belgium has refused. Also very sensible.

GPs in Noord Brabant yesterday said that deaths from an obvious corona infection in their practices are not being recorded if deceased patients didn't test positive for it. The entirety of tests yesterday: 1678, according to RIVM figures.

menachem Mar 27th, 2020 10:59 PM


Originally Posted by MyriamC (Post 17085385)
In Belgium only the tested people are counted in the total number of infected people. So, the total number of corona patients is supposed to be much, much higher than the 'official' numbers.
I presume same goes for the Netherlands.

The Dutch strategy is to test very little. This was ascribed to a shortage of testing kits and test material, but that turned to be the result of Dutch procurement practices, that locked us in with Roche.


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