Am I getting old? I liked it better before...
Aug 7th, 2009, 10:11 AM
#41
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Who'd want to live with no electricity or running water....?
Yea, mikelg, in your original post it seems you are writing of another country!
I understand what you mean, things are much better now, but some things should have been preserved (but not the picturesque young woman at the fountain with the pitcher!).
Yea, mikelg, in your original post it seems you are writing of another country!
I understand what you mean, things are much better now, but some things should have been preserved (but not the picturesque young woman at the fountain with the pitcher!).
Aug 7th, 2009, 11:01 AM
#42
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TG.. again, I think you think in far too big dimensions. I have no problems with having five Zara stores in my town, or 20 McDonalds restaurants.
Few people will (hopefully) argue that from an overall perspective, the last 20 years have been a success story in forging a European Union. And I have nothing at all against abolishing trade and customs barriers, freedom of movement, standardization of job qualifications, cross-border businesses, cultural exchange, cracking down corruption etc. The more the better.
It's the little, rather "unimportant" things where the Eurocrats intervene too much into our lifestyles, e.g. when a certain liquor cannot be sold anymore because it does not fit into some EU health regulations, or when we should print the amount of calories on a candy bar so that even the most stupid know that they should not eat 10 per day, or that more permissive Member States should raise their taxes on "sinful" products like alcohol or tabacco... and this nanny attitude is more a "Northern" than a "Southern" thing in the EU, IMO... and not one that is totally foreign to the Brits.
Few people will (hopefully) argue that from an overall perspective, the last 20 years have been a success story in forging a European Union. And I have nothing at all against abolishing trade and customs barriers, freedom of movement, standardization of job qualifications, cross-border businesses, cultural exchange, cracking down corruption etc. The more the better.
It's the little, rather "unimportant" things where the Eurocrats intervene too much into our lifestyles, e.g. when a certain liquor cannot be sold anymore because it does not fit into some EU health regulations, or when we should print the amount of calories on a candy bar so that even the most stupid know that they should not eat 10 per day, or that more permissive Member States should raise their taxes on "sinful" products like alcohol or tabacco... and this nanny attitude is more a "Northern" than a "Southern" thing in the EU, IMO... and not one that is totally foreign to the Brits.
Aug 7th, 2009, 11:36 AM
#43
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Cowboy - You miss the point. The Eurocrats are simply not new. European governments have been sticking their noses where they don't belong for ages. The only difference is that the Eurocrats have their sites set on more mundane things like alcohol or tobacco taxes, rather than religion or political opinions.
A place like Spain had, what, 10 years of democratic government prior to joining the EU? Germany had maybe 25 years of democratic government. This is throughout their history! And even as democratic states, virtually all the Western European governments saw massive state involvement in setting industrial policy in the post-war era - Airbus, anyone? Am I the only one that remembers Bull Computers? Throw in a long history of state-sponsored religions and absurd jingoistic rules like France's requirements for French language radio, and it is hard to see exactly what room was left for the EU to control.
Heck, you want to talk about Nanny states, East Germany had children informing on parents, parents informing on children, and a level of surveillance that would make Stalin green with envy. The Germans, especially, seem to love the state telling them what to do. They may deny it, but the revealed preferences suggest they are kidding themselves. If the EU didn't impose these controls, the citizens of the EU would invent the EU so that it could be done.
The reality is that invasive nanny states are hardly new to Europe. Certainly they aren't unique to the EU. No, the Eurocrats control like they do because they are inheritors of the state systems the French and Germans developed before them. It is fun to blame the Eurocrats, but the reality is that it is doubtful things would be any different, at least in Germany and France, had they never joined the EU.
Yes, some of the other states might look different, but probably not better. Ireland, Spain, Portugal, and Greece would have remained poor relatives, with the latter three constantly shifting from one unstable government to another, without the largesse of the EU. Italy would remain the basket case that it always was and still is. The UK would continue to bask in the glow of an empire long gone.
A place like Spain had, what, 10 years of democratic government prior to joining the EU? Germany had maybe 25 years of democratic government. This is throughout their history! And even as democratic states, virtually all the Western European governments saw massive state involvement in setting industrial policy in the post-war era - Airbus, anyone? Am I the only one that remembers Bull Computers? Throw in a long history of state-sponsored religions and absurd jingoistic rules like France's requirements for French language radio, and it is hard to see exactly what room was left for the EU to control.
Heck, you want to talk about Nanny states, East Germany had children informing on parents, parents informing on children, and a level of surveillance that would make Stalin green with envy. The Germans, especially, seem to love the state telling them what to do. They may deny it, but the revealed preferences suggest they are kidding themselves. If the EU didn't impose these controls, the citizens of the EU would invent the EU so that it could be done.
The reality is that invasive nanny states are hardly new to Europe. Certainly they aren't unique to the EU. No, the Eurocrats control like they do because they are inheritors of the state systems the French and Germans developed before them. It is fun to blame the Eurocrats, but the reality is that it is doubtful things would be any different, at least in Germany and France, had they never joined the EU.
Yes, some of the other states might look different, but probably not better. Ireland, Spain, Portugal, and Greece would have remained poor relatives, with the latter three constantly shifting from one unstable government to another, without the largesse of the EU. Italy would remain the basket case that it always was and still is. The UK would continue to bask in the glow of an empire long gone.
Aug 7th, 2009, 01:53 PM
#44
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Very interesting comments. Our one visit to Spain was summer of 1990, a study of St. Teresa and mysticism at Salamanca.
This was and hopefully is still a picturesque old university town. Largest plaza mayor in country. We had side trips to Avila, Segovia, La Alberca, Ciudad Rodrigo and a train back to Madrid for a few days (especially Prado Museum).
During the lectures some Dominican priests expressed yearning for the good old days...which meant Franco! They mourned loss of church control over education and bemoaned freedoms (like girlie magazines on stands). This sent us to a bookstore and purchase of a book now revised as "The New Spaniards" by Hooper. Very helpful.
I'm sure Spain has change alot since 1990. We have investments in The Spain Fund (mostly banks and utilities) and am aware of the boom and bust economically...as in Ireland, as in the U.S. But mikelg, I'm approaching twice your age and have the same complaint about losing much distinctiveness.
We live in a city in the Ozarks with lakes and streams and to the south is Branson where hills have been leveled to make way for many large entertainment theaters. It has ruined the lovely countryside for the sake of tourism. All over America we have those shopping malls and interstate highways and housing developments that have changed the face of things
...often taking up rich farmland. But now we see vacancies all over. Change happens but change isn't always good.
Still I'm glad Spain has moved into a democratic albeit commercial future. Here in the U.S. I have concerns of my own about losing our unique places of beauty and history. BTW, tapas are the big thing nowadays!
Ozarksbill [email protected]
(would love to discuss such issues on Facebook)
This was and hopefully is still a picturesque old university town. Largest plaza mayor in country. We had side trips to Avila, Segovia, La Alberca, Ciudad Rodrigo and a train back to Madrid for a few days (especially Prado Museum).
During the lectures some Dominican priests expressed yearning for the good old days...which meant Franco! They mourned loss of church control over education and bemoaned freedoms (like girlie magazines on stands). This sent us to a bookstore and purchase of a book now revised as "The New Spaniards" by Hooper. Very helpful.
I'm sure Spain has change alot since 1990. We have investments in The Spain Fund (mostly banks and utilities) and am aware of the boom and bust economically...as in Ireland, as in the U.S. But mikelg, I'm approaching twice your age and have the same complaint about losing much distinctiveness.
We live in a city in the Ozarks with lakes and streams and to the south is Branson where hills have been leveled to make way for many large entertainment theaters. It has ruined the lovely countryside for the sake of tourism. All over America we have those shopping malls and interstate highways and housing developments that have changed the face of things
...often taking up rich farmland. But now we see vacancies all over. Change happens but change isn't always good.
Still I'm glad Spain has moved into a democratic albeit commercial future. Here in the U.S. I have concerns of my own about losing our unique places of beauty and history. BTW, tapas are the big thing nowadays!
Ozarksbill [email protected]
(would love to discuss such issues on Facebook)
Aug 7th, 2009, 03:34 PM
#45
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I can´t but agree with most of your comments...this nostalgia feeling must have something to do with the 40´s barrier age...in any case, I love living the way I do and it´s just a pity that there are so many protective regulations that are standarizing us (Europeans) in such a way that we may end losing our distinctive ways (and being a Basque, identity becomes an issue...)
Aug 7th, 2009, 11:39 PM
#47
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Actually, this has nothing to do with nostalgia.
It's the always ongoing "battle" for dividing competences and power between the EU, Member States, and the regions. Or favoring a system of subsidiary to more centralized government structures.
TG is, of course, right in saying that few countries in Europe had been liberal paradises 20 or 30 years ago, or before they joined the EU, respectively. And Eastern Germany is a perfect example where the State controlled many aspects of everyday life.
But that is not the point. It's also not the point if there are more or less regulations - but where those decisions are made. In some member states also regional or State parliaments exist which have legislative and executive powers - a concept that is totally foreign for someone, for example, from France or Denmark.
But, for someone from the Basque Country or Saxony it is sometimes harder to swallow that some EU Commission in far-away Brussels is deciding on regulations that they would not not even tolerate to get "dictated" from Madrid or Berlin.
Especially since both regions had been governed by an undemocratic central government, then gained democratic privileges, used those freedoms to take away power from the (democratic) central government, empower autonomous regional parliaments, and now have to accept that, again, power gets shifted to a centralized body, i.e. the EU commission.
So, it's not the same old complaining that Brussels does regulate our lives - but rather that they accumulate too much power that should rather be allocated on regional levels.
Eventually you will probably have neither more nor less regulations, but some people are more happy when the scope of a regulation gets decided on their regional or member state level.
It's the always ongoing "battle" for dividing competences and power between the EU, Member States, and the regions. Or favoring a system of subsidiary to more centralized government structures.
TG is, of course, right in saying that few countries in Europe had been liberal paradises 20 or 30 years ago, or before they joined the EU, respectively. And Eastern Germany is a perfect example where the State controlled many aspects of everyday life.
But that is not the point. It's also not the point if there are more or less regulations - but where those decisions are made. In some member states also regional or State parliaments exist which have legislative and executive powers - a concept that is totally foreign for someone, for example, from France or Denmark.
But, for someone from the Basque Country or Saxony it is sometimes harder to swallow that some EU Commission in far-away Brussels is deciding on regulations that they would not not even tolerate to get "dictated" from Madrid or Berlin.
Especially since both regions had been governed by an undemocratic central government, then gained democratic privileges, used those freedoms to take away power from the (democratic) central government, empower autonomous regional parliaments, and now have to accept that, again, power gets shifted to a centralized body, i.e. the EU commission.
So, it's not the same old complaining that Brussels does regulate our lives - but rather that they accumulate too much power that should rather be allocated on regional levels.
Eventually you will probably have neither more nor less regulations, but some people are more happy when the scope of a regulation gets decided on their regional or member state level.
