neckervd

AOSTA VALLEY
Although I really like/love Aosta and Cogne, I wouldn't recommend these places for a longer stay.
Aosta is well a transport hub for the Central leg of the Valley, but the bus timetables don't make it easy to organize long day trips from there.
In the morning, there is only one bus from Aosta to each Valgrisenche (dp 7.45), Val de Rhemes dp 5.15) and Valsavaranche (dp 6.45).
For the way back, the last bus leaves Valgrisenche at 16.15, Valsavaranche at 18.15 and Rhemes at 17.55
Only the bus timetables from Aosta to Cogne and to Bionaz are suitable for day trips..
IMO Cogne doesn't offer many easy circular walks. In many cases, you have to turn back more or less along the same trail because of the high and rocky mountains around.
I see 3 exceptions:
Hike over the Fenetrel de Champorcher to Champorcher and back by bus Champorcher dp 17.10 (- Cogne ar 20.30),
Climb up 1800 metres to Col de Lauzon and down 1800 metres again to Degioz Valsavaranche in order to catch the 18.15 bus.(-Cogne ar 20.30, only a few minutes for bus change at Aosta),
Hike via Col de St-Marcel to Nus (1400m upwards, 2400m downwards).
Therefore I recommended Courmayeur (in front of Mont Blanc) and Gressoney (somewhat "behind Zermatt", 2 villages with several gondolas and local bus lines. Gressoney is much more scenic, but Courmayeur means Mont Blanc.

jimcooper2572

Thank you so much neckervd. That is amazing information. You have an encyclopedic knowledge and I really appreciate you sharing. As far as Aosta, is transportation to a different country a problem adding many complications? Also I understand English is fairly common in Switzerland, does that carry over into the Italian villages or will we have more of a communication barrier there? I'll look into Gressoney. After reading Melnq8's October trip the drier valleys you mentioned are sounding better I will definitely start my search with your recommendations.

neckervd

AOSTA VALLEY
Language:
The mother tongue of most Valdotains is a ancient French dialect that people from Paris doesn't understand a all. With foreigners they speak good French, of course!
A minority speaks a Piedmontain dialect. Everybody speaks italian, the official language.
People working in tourism as well as younger generations speak English very well.

Access from Switzerland:
Flixbus Geneva - Courmayeur, 1-3 times daily, 2 1/2 hrs journey, fares start at 10 EUR/pax
Arriva Bus Chamonix - courmayeur, 1-4 times daily, 45 min journey, fare 15 EUR/pax
TMR/Arriva Bus Orsieres (Switzerland) - Aosta, with 500 walk between the Swiss and the Italian bus stop at Gd St-Bernard Pass. July and August only, 2times daily, 3 1/2 hrs journey, with long layover at Gd St-Bernard Pass.
Train via Lake Orta - Novara - Chivasso, fare 31 EUR/pax, with Swiss Travel Pass 15 EUR/pax
Brig dp 12.44 - Pont St. Martin ar 17.36
Brig dp 14.44 - Pont St. Martin ar 19.36
Brig dp 16.44 - Pont St. Martin ar 21.36
Matterhorn Alpine Crossing https://www.matterhornparadise.ch/en...lpine-Crossing
Cableway Zermatt - Furi - Trockener Steg - Kleinmatterhorn (3820 metres above sea level) - Testa Grigia (3480 m, Swiss/Italian border) - Cime Bianche (hiking trail to Ferraro Hut - Bettefurgge, about 9 hrs; last departure of the gondola from Bettefurgge to Gressoney at 17.15) - Plan Maison - Cervinia/Breuil bus station, from 7.00 until 15.00, 1 1/2 hrs journey, Fares start at 90 EUR/pax

OlavE

Haven't been to Aosta yet, but the hiking network from Cogne seems more extensive than the network from Courmayeur. Also Cogne is at a higher altitude and there are none godolas there, or what? IMO that is a plus since it means less infrastructure and you can start to walk directly from the village. So it's a matter of taste if one prefers circular hikes or not.

Btw, Gressoney vs Champoluc for a village on the south side of Monte Rosa. Any persperctive there?

neckervd

COGNE
Gondolas: the well known gondola to Montzeuc runs since more than 60 years anad has been completely refurbished in 1990.
The 2 chairlifts run in winter only.
There are hiking trails, of course. And as they all belonged to tht Royal hunting ground until 1945 which was then converted into the Gran Paradiso National Park, they are often in excellent condition.
But that cannot change the fact, that you remain alway in the same valley which you cnnot leave in the South because of the rocks and glaciers of Gran Paradiso and Torre del Gran San Pietro and only at 1 point each in the West resp. in the East, namely at Fenetre de Champorcher and Col de Lauzon.
You can do very interestng hikes in the North of Cogne (outside the national Park area), but they are all rather strenous, like
11 Lakes Hike Cogne -Gimillian - Lakes Lussert (13 km from Cogne, 2900 m above sea level) - Eastern Lake (14 km, 2700 m) - Pointe Laval (3000 m, 19 km) - Petite Chaux (2500 m, 14 km) - Petit Ayer (2900 m, 18 km) - Grand'Alpe (25 km, 2100 m) - Col du Ponton (2900 m/29 km) - Lake Miserin Hut (33 km/2550 m) - Fenetre de Champorcher (35 km, 2820 m) - Cogne (51 km/1530 m).
It's clear that I annot propose such things.
Therefore the length of the trail network cannot be the only criteria.

neckervd

COURMAYEUR
Best hikes:
Col Checrouit/Maison Vielle gondola station - Lake Checrouit - Arp Vielle d'amont - Arp Vielle Dessous - (all in front of Western Mont Blanc) - Combal Hut - Lake Miage - Visaille bus station,
Col Checrouit/Maison Vielle gondola station - Col de la Youlaz - Crest trail (all in front ofWestern Mont Blanc) - Mont Fortin - Berrioz Blanc - La Thuile bus terminal,
Lavachey bus stop - Bonatti Hut - col entre deux Saus - Col Sapin - Tet34e de Bernarde - Mont de la Saxe - B Ertone Hut - Trappa - Courmayeur (all in front of Eastern Mont Blanc),
Les Suches gondola staation (above la Thuile) - Lake Bella Comba - Lake Ruitor - Deffeyes Hut/Ruitor Glacier - Comba Sorda - La Thuile bus terminal.

neckervd

The highlight of Courmayeur is of course th gondola ride over Mont Blanc:
https://www.montebianco.com/en
Entreves/La Palud - Pointe Hellbronner - Aiguille du Midi - Chamonix and back by bus.

yorkshire

Since you have the option of visiting in fall, I strongly suggest that. We visited Murren in late October, and it was fantastic, but we definitely noted at least twice, "I bet this place is slammed in summer." I agonized over the weather, but we lucked out (a mixed blessing--it was the warmest October on record).
Some places had closed for the season already, or would soon, but we still managed to eat in hotel restaurants twice (unlike in some countries, hotel restaurants were great quality). This one also rents apartments: https://www.edelweiss-muerren.ch/en/Apartments/
I also searched here, and there are countless other rental sites: https://www.interhome.com/switzerlan...rland/muerren/
I ended up going with VRBO, but I left it very late because I wanted to see what the weather was going to be before choosing a location. Another bonus for October--accommodation prices lower than high season.
Murren was perfect because it was so easy to reach trails, go down to Lauterbrunnen for easy waterfall hikes on off days, go up to mountaintops, etc.. There is also a via ferrata and hang gliding for the more adventurous. We also stayed in Lucerne, lovely town with many mountain day trips, easy to reach from Zurich.
Nice thing about Switzerland is the high value for the money (even if it is more expensive than places we usually go)--you can not go wrong, there are passes to save on transport costs, and you can get to literal mountain peaks all on public transport!

jimcooper2572

Thank you for your input Yorkshire. It is funny you mentioned those two places because I started looking around that area as well. Mainly because it looked like there was a lot of waterfall centric hiking in that area (which makes sense being one of the wetter areas, thanks Neckvrd). I do realize the area is much more traveled so I am a little concerned about the crowds but maybe with the shoulder season it won't be so bad. We also were looking at the Lake Lucerne area as well. My wife really enjoys kayaking but I don't know if that will be too chilly in late September/early October which I do believe is the time frame we were going to aim for. The basic outline I have been looking at now is something like:

Fly into Zurich
Somewhere in the Lake Lucerne area (maybe even Lucerne) - 3-4 days (1 day on the lake, couple days doing day hikes, day in the city)
Murren/Wengen/Kandersteg 4-5 days (maybe a day on the lake, 3-4 days day hikes, relaxing day in the town, would like to see Lake Oeschinen)
Vissoie/St-Luc/Grimentz or Sass-Fee/Sass Grund 4-5 days (3 days day hikes, maybe a day trip to Zermatt if we decide we can't live without seeing it or a trail in the area, day relaxing in town)
Throw a castle in one of those places for my wife (who fell in love with them in Ireland) as well
Fly out of Zurich/Geneva/Milan

I feel like that will give us a good overview of multiple different parts of the country from larger city to smaller quieter mountain alpine town. Transportation seems good between them all with travel time around 3 hours in between. Am I traveling down the right path or is something not passing the sniff test?

Thank you again for everyone's help. Neckvrd, your knowledge of the area and especially the transportation system is so valuable. Planning around bus stops and connections is something I would have never even thought of and you provide is so readily. Thank you.

Melnq8

We spent five nights in Vissoie/St-Luc/Grimentz the past two Octobers, and it was anything but busy. Vissoie is a transport hub, and it did get a tiny bit busy at the main bus stop when all the buses gather to collect passengers for their various routes, but it certainly wasn't crowded.

The day we took the hike from St Luc to the Hotel Weisshorn we ran into quite a few people doing the same, as it was a beautiful day:


Lunch break Hotel Weisshorn

But once we got away from the funicular station, we didn't see many people on the trail:


Trail to Hotel Weisshorn

Here's a photo of Grimentz this past October:


Grimentz

And the trail to Moiry Dam:


Trail to Moiry Dam

We were also in Lucerne in late October and it was CRAZY busy, to the point we were overwhelmed. Especially around the Bahnhof and the lake where people were getting off boats. But, it's a city afterall. We find that we often feel crowd overload when we visit a city after having spent weeks in the Swiss countryside.

Melnq8

Can't get rid of that Spoiler tag - not sure where that came from.

jimcooper2572

That was kind of the thought on starting in Zurich and making our way down. Each place should get progressively less crowded and peaceful. Did you ever get outside of Lucerne to any of the smaller towns around the lake? I thought maybe one of them would offer a little more peace. If the lake is that crowded I don't know if we would enjoy a paddle on it.

Additionally, judging by nothing more than looking at the topographic map, I thought the travel between Lucerne area and Lauterbrunnen area would be more scenic then Zurich through Bern. It would break up the travel a little as well.
Zurich to Lucerne area ~50 minutes spend a few days then a ~3 hour trip to Lauterbrunnen
vs
either right off the plane ~3 hour trip to Lauterbrunnen or stay a night in Zurich.

yorkshire

I flew in and out of Zurich and the train is so efficient--I left on arrival for Montreux, departed Lucerne last morning for my outbound flight at noon.
With the option to travel in shoulder season, I would not worry about Lucerne being too crowded since you'll have the contrast of a mountain stay. I hate crowds myself, but am more tolerant in urban areas. I found it bustling but never overwhelming in October (did need dinner reservations).
Maybe look at Brienz and Thun for kayaking?

ms_go

I'm not Melnq8, but we also visited there recently. We chose to stay in Weggis across the lake and just take a boat to visit Lucerne (which we also found overwhelmingly crowded, but we've been before so we only really went for a quick walk around). We found Weggis much more peaceful and relaxing, and a nice first stop after Zurich. It is walking distance to the cable car that goes up toward Mt. Rigi.

neckervd

Some remarks concerning post 29:
Forget Aosta Valley if you travel after mid September. Most lifts will no longer work in this period and at least 3/4 of the touristic infrastructure will be closed, despite the usually rather excellent weather.
There will be one exception however: the highest and most spectacular gondola line over the Alps from Zermatt to Cervinia/Breuil. Cf. post 23 (Matterhorn alpine crossing).

You will not be alone in the German speaking part of Switzerland between mid September and mid October as there will be automn school holidays in that area. Many Swiss families spend a week or two in mountain chalets or airbnbs during this period or make day trips from cities like Zurich, Basel or Berne if the weather is fine. Trains towards popular mountain destination may get crowded, especially in 2nd class and on weekends.

Lakes: In automn, it's not unusual to find fog in the morning along lakes and rivers. This fog will usually disappear after noon. In these situations, the higher you go, the more you will find sun and clear views whereas the lowlands will remain rather misty. The most sunny lakes are usually Lake Geneva (around Montreux), Lake Maggiore (around Locarno) and Lake Lugano, but even there, lidos/public bathing beaches close around Sept. 20th because it will just get too cold for water sports after that date.

AIRPORTS OF ZRH, GVA, MXP:
Milan (about 200.000 starts and landings/year) is by far the biggest airport among these 3, with 2 terminals (very distant from each other) and long ways between train station, bus station, check in and gates.
Zurich (about 275.000 starts and landings/year) is much smaller, with shorter ways and shorter queues.
Geneva (only 1 runway, about 170.000 starts and landings/year) is even smaller and very efficient too.

Access from the mountains by public transport::
ZRH: can be reached from almost everywhere in Switzerland every 30 or sometimes 60 min, but not all trains are direct.
Direct trains from Geneva, Lausanne, Berne, Lucerne, St. Gallen every 30 min
Direct trains from Basel, Neuchatel, Fribourg, Spiez, Thun, Biel/Bienne, Solothurn every 60 min
direct trains from Brig (Aletsch glacier), Visp (Zermatt, Saas Fee), Interlaken, every 120 min.

GVA: can be reached from almost everywhere in Switzerland every 30 or sometimes 60 min, but not all trains are direct.
Direct trains from Brig, Visp, Sierre, Sion, Martigny, Aigle, Montreux, Vevey, Zurich, Bern, Fribourg, every 30 min

MXP can be reached every hr from Lucerne, with train changes ar Arth-Goldau and Lugano
Best connections:from Western Switzerland:
Bern dp 11.34 - Spiez 12.05 - Visp 12.33 - Brig 12.44 - Gallarate ar 14.05, train change, Gallarate dp 14.16 - MXP T1 ar 14.41
Bern dp 18.34 - Spiez 19.05 - Visp 19.33 - Brig 19.44 - Gallarate ar 21.05, train change, Gallarate dp 21.16 - MXP T1 ar 21.41
Montreux dp 6.37 - Sion 7.13 - Brig 7.44 - Gallarate ar 9.05, train change, Gallarate dp 9.16 - MXP T1 ar 9.41

Melnq8

Did you ever get outside of Lucerne to any of the smaller towns around the lake? I thought maybe one of them would offer a little more peace. If the lake is that crowded I don't know if we would enjoy a paddle on it.

No, we just spent two nights in Lucerne at the end of the trip (October 21, 22). We'd been before and our primary reason for visiting this year was to visit a chocolate factory in Root and just wind down after a month of hiking. I rather like the suggestion of Weggis as an alternative.

jimcooper2572

Thank you Ms. Go. That is good to hear. I won't discount the Lake area yet.

I did some quick napkin math. With only the routing I talked about above, those trips priced for tomorrow (I know I could get cheaper saver passes on the actual trip) price out about $120pp (less than $10pp/day) cheaper than the two week unlimited pass. I assume I would easily surpass that just in local travel over 2 weeks? If it is even close it would probably be worth the peace of mind to just have unlimited travel and not have to worry about making saver trains. Am I correct that the travel pass does not cover the majority of gondolas?

Melnq8

Am I correct that the travel pass does not cover the majority of gondolas?

It provides a 50% reduction on most, but not all.

Details here:

https://www.swiss-pass.ch/swiss-pass/

The perk, for those traveling for 15 days or less, is convenience - you can just hop on and off covered transport at will (you'd still need to purchase tickets for any cable cars/funiculars/gondolas only covered at 50%).

During our most recent visit, we spent $1,317.73 on transport - of that, 240 chf was for our half fare cards, and about 160 chf was for full fare transport - our trip was 32 days, but our Half Fare Card was only good for 30. So, considering the bulk of our travel was at half fare, you can see how fast it adds up.

If you think you might want to do more than is included in your initial napkin math, it could well behoove you to go with a pass. It's nice to have that flexibility.

Keep in mind that the SBB app defaults to 1/2 fare, so make sure you're looking at full fare when making the comparison. This also applies to Saver day passes and Super Saver tickets.

And those Saver Passes may or may not be available when you want to buy them. You'll want to book them well in advance, which makes things less flexible. A Super Saver Pass is for a specific day, on a specific train or bus, so much less flexible.

neckervd

SOME SWISS TRAIN, BUS AND GONDOLA STANDARD FARES, 2ND CLASS, VALID IN AUTOMN 2023

Zurich airport - Lucerne: 30 CHF/OW
Zurich airport - Brunnen (Lake Lucerne): 15 CHF/OW
Full Lake Lucerne cruise: 83 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Rigi Kulm: 100 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Wengen: 48 CHF/OW
Wengen - Jungfraujoch: 188 CHF/RT
Wengen - Zermatt: 98 CHF/OW
Zermatt - Matterhorn Paradise: 110 CHF/RT
Wenvgen - Saas Grund: 76 CHF
Saas Fee - Mittelalallin revolving glacier restaurant: 75 CHF/RT
Saas Grund - Hohsaas glacier restaurant:48 CHF/RT
Wengen - St-Luc/Zinal/Grimentz: 85 CHF/OW

neckervd

SOME SWISS TRAIN, BUS AND GONDOLA STANDARD FARES, 2ND CLASS, VALID IN AUTOMN 2023

Zurich airport - Lucerne: 30 CHF/OW
Zurich airport - Brunnen (Lake Lucerne): 15 CHF/OW
Full Lake Lucerne cruise: 83 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Rigi Kulm: 100 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Wengen: 48 CHF/OW
Wengen - Jungfraujoch: 188 CHF/RT
Wengen - Zermatt: 98 CHF/OW
Zermatt - Matterhorn Paradise: 110 CHF/RT
Wenvgen - Saas Grund: 76 CHF
Saas Fee - Mittelalallin revolving glacier restaurant: 75 CHF/RT
Saas Grund - Hohsaas glacier restaurant:48 CHF/RT
Wengen - Zinal/Grimentz/St-Luc/Chandolin: 85 CHF/OW