Airb2b in Paris
Mar 8th, 2015, 08:10 AM
#81
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-All of the Gîte de France listings are inspected, rated, and are given evaluations by the agency so you will know exactly what to expect.-
And the listings for Paris are legal? Sojurntraveller posted about this site upthread - there are quite a few listings in Paris, if they are indeed legal this is a good resource for people wanting to rent apartments in Paris.
And the listings for Paris are legal? Sojurntraveller posted about this site upthread - there are quite a few listings in Paris, if they are indeed legal this is a good resource for people wanting to rent apartments in Paris.
Mar 8th, 2015, 08:24 AM
#82
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<i>And the listings for Paris are legal?</i>
If the listings in Paris are in someone´s home which they rent for no more than 4 months a year then the accommodations are indeed legal. General listings themselves are neither legal nor illegal, they are just listings. The law ALUR applies primarily to the owner/renter relationship.
The bulk of Chambres d´hôtes or gîtes are not found in Paris, they are mostly in the countryside and my mentioning them again was in specific response to someone´s, texasdebb, suggesting to use Airbnb which offers no such vetting of accommodation possibilities.
If the listings in Paris are in someone´s home which they rent for no more than 4 months a year then the accommodations are indeed legal. General listings themselves are neither legal nor illegal, they are just listings. The law ALUR applies primarily to the owner/renter relationship.
The bulk of Chambres d´hôtes or gîtes are not found in Paris, they are mostly in the countryside and my mentioning them again was in specific response to someone´s, texasdebb, suggesting to use Airbnb which offers no such vetting of accommodation possibilities.
Mar 8th, 2015, 10:52 AM
#84
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I just checked the gîtes-de-france listings for Paris. There were about 40 of them and about 1/3 of these were B&B's. I then perused about a half dozen of the gîte listings and all of them showed year round availability, which would seem to indicate that they are not in compliance with the short term rental laws. Of course that doesn't prove for certain that they are illegal and maybe that's a function of the website design that they can't block out 8 months of the year (showing unavailability). The only way to know for certain is to ask for proof that the owner doesn't rent for more than 4 months out of the year and that it is the owner's main residence.
Just to reiterate what Sarastro and nukesafe said, the short term rental laws apply only to cities with a population of over 200,000 but also to those départements that are adjacent to Paris. Short term rentals are legal elsewhere in France.
Just to reiterate what Sarastro and nukesafe said, the short term rental laws apply only to cities with a population of over 200,000 but also to those départements that are adjacent to Paris. Short term rentals are legal elsewhere in France.
Mar 8th, 2015, 11:47 AM
#85
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This thread is about rentals in Paris.
Texasdebb has responded to this thread. Therefore either she is ignoring it is about Paris or saying she doesn't care if it is about Paris, she is a fan of Airbnb.
Let's suppose she didn't even realize the implications of what she is saying in terms of how it relates to Paris. Let's suppose all her rentals were legal and she is just saying she is a fan of Airbnb.
Having read at least some of the comments on this thread, I would expect her to have come to understand that Airbnb KNOWINGLY lists illegal rentals that impact on other people. To me that means that Airbnb are in fact saying, 'we don't care, not our problem, morality is irrelevant to our business.'
If someone says they are happy with such a company, that to me puts them in the same position as that company. 'I don't care about anyone else.'
Re Gites de France, as far as I know (99% sure) all their listing are legal including the ones in Paris. They are vetted as Sarastro suggests.
Don't get hung up on the 4 month rule. You can advertise availability for the entire year you just cannot take bookings beyond a total of 4 months. See the difference?
If they reach 4 months of total bookings, it is easy to then go online and show all other dates as unavailable. But they aren't going to try and do that beforehand as someone might want a week in February or November or whatever. How would you possibly try to determine which time periods to show as unavailable ahead of time?
Texasdebb has responded to this thread. Therefore either she is ignoring it is about Paris or saying she doesn't care if it is about Paris, she is a fan of Airbnb.
Let's suppose she didn't even realize the implications of what she is saying in terms of how it relates to Paris. Let's suppose all her rentals were legal and she is just saying she is a fan of Airbnb.
Having read at least some of the comments on this thread, I would expect her to have come to understand that Airbnb KNOWINGLY lists illegal rentals that impact on other people. To me that means that Airbnb are in fact saying, 'we don't care, not our problem, morality is irrelevant to our business.'
If someone says they are happy with such a company, that to me puts them in the same position as that company. 'I don't care about anyone else.'
Re Gites de France, as far as I know (99% sure) all their listing are legal including the ones in Paris. They are vetted as Sarastro suggests.
Don't get hung up on the 4 month rule. You can advertise availability for the entire year you just cannot take bookings beyond a total of 4 months. See the difference?
If they reach 4 months of total bookings, it is easy to then go online and show all other dates as unavailable. But they aren't going to try and do that beforehand as someone might want a week in February or November or whatever. How would you possibly try to determine which time periods to show as unavailable ahead of time?
Mar 8th, 2015, 02:28 PM
#86
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<<In most places it is NOT "illegal", immoral, or fattening.>>
I was interested to read that in France, this is only in Paris, but it doesn't surprise me given the problems it creates is mainly in large cities. But if someone is subletting their rental apt to vacationers, that is often illegal, at least in any place I've ever rented. Landlords generally have clauses in their leases that the tenant is not allowed to sublet without their permission, nor run a business in the rental. I thought that was pretty common in leases, but maybe in Europe, that idea is unusual, to forbid tenants to run businesses or sublease on their own.
Of course, a lot of these units are owned, I guess. I know several years ago I rented an apt from an online agency in Paris, and the owner even told me it was illegal, of course I was there at that point. I had no idea beforehand. The reason she told me was that she didn't want me to tell anyone I ran into in the hallway, etc., that I was a vacation renter, in case someone asked. So this must have been illegal in Paris for some time, I imagine, not just recently. She didn't live in the place, either, it was an investment (something about saving it for her child some day when he'd want to live there, I forget). I guess it was like a parent investing in real estate when they found a good deal with the idea that when their child grew up, it would be out of their range or something. That's true in a lot of cities with escalating real estate prices.
I was interested to read that in France, this is only in Paris, but it doesn't surprise me given the problems it creates is mainly in large cities. But if someone is subletting their rental apt to vacationers, that is often illegal, at least in any place I've ever rented. Landlords generally have clauses in their leases that the tenant is not allowed to sublet without their permission, nor run a business in the rental. I thought that was pretty common in leases, but maybe in Europe, that idea is unusual, to forbid tenants to run businesses or sublease on their own.
Of course, a lot of these units are owned, I guess. I know several years ago I rented an apt from an online agency in Paris, and the owner even told me it was illegal, of course I was there at that point. I had no idea beforehand. The reason she told me was that she didn't want me to tell anyone I ran into in the hallway, etc., that I was a vacation renter, in case someone asked. So this must have been illegal in Paris for some time, I imagine, not just recently. She didn't live in the place, either, it was an investment (something about saving it for her child some day when he'd want to live there, I forget). I guess it was like a parent investing in real estate when they found a good deal with the idea that when their child grew up, it would be out of their range or something. That's true in a lot of cities with escalating real estate prices.
Mar 8th, 2015, 03:41 PM
#87
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If this ALUR is so recent, and there are supposedly constitutional challenges to it, what is the likelihood that the city is aggressively enforcing it?
If they ask an owner if it's his primary residence and he's not renting it more than 4 months out of the year, how would the city determine if he's telling the truth?
They'd have to get testimony from neighbors and some other kind of proof that he was renting more than 4 months or that it wasn't his primary residence?
Did the city hire an army of inspectors to go around to each of these apts. and ask these pointed questions?
What is the fine for illegal rentals? How many prosecutions have there been, how many accounts of people on holiday being denied the rental they reserved or being thrown out in the middle of a rental?
Seems like such accounts would spread pretty quickly and AirBnB and others would have to have disclaimers that any rental in Paris that you booked through the site could potentially be invalidated and AirBnB users could find themselves without a place to stay on arriving in paris.
Not to mention signs of vigorous enforcement getting more coverage in the media.
If they ask an owner if it's his primary residence and he's not renting it more than 4 months out of the year, how would the city determine if he's telling the truth?
They'd have to get testimony from neighbors and some other kind of proof that he was renting more than 4 months or that it wasn't his primary residence?
Did the city hire an army of inspectors to go around to each of these apts. and ask these pointed questions?
What is the fine for illegal rentals? How many prosecutions have there been, how many accounts of people on holiday being denied the rental they reserved or being thrown out in the middle of a rental?
Seems like such accounts would spread pretty quickly and AirBnB and others would have to have disclaimers that any rental in Paris that you booked through the site could potentially be invalidated and AirBnB users could find themselves without a place to stay on arriving in paris.
Not to mention signs of vigorous enforcement getting more coverage in the media.
Mar 9th, 2015, 12:46 AM
#88
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scrv11 - apparently, you either live in a dark cave somewhere, or are very selective about accessing the media...
All of the things you mentioned have been in the news for a few years, and all of them have been addressed recently - and in depth - on this forum and every other travel forum on the internet.
Either stay in the dark, or put on your reading glasses and go to work.
All of the things you mentioned have been in the news for a few years, and all of them have been addressed recently - and in depth - on this forum and every other travel forum on the internet.
Either stay in the dark, or put on your reading glasses and go to work.
Mar 9th, 2015, 12:59 AM
#89
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ALUR is complex and involves much more than just vacation rentals but only that part of the law is pertinent to this forum. The Senate had objections last year, particularly to previsions affecting the renting of secondary homes, but Parliament overruled the objections and ALUR was passed with the provisions.
Interests who disagreed with this portion of the law have challenged its constitutionality. The final outcome is not yet known but this aspect is only part of the overall law.
The 4 month exemption is probably not going to be the initial thrust of enforcement. Ultimately, its enforcement will most likely result when neighbors make complaints. It would be relatively easy for the city to determine if any location is a primary or secondary residence based upon the address one uses for a driver´s license, tax returns, passport etc.
I believe that it was Adrian Leeds herself who stated that the city has 20 current inspectors enforcing ALUR.
The fines can be steep but most have been levied at 10,000€ per violation.
Airbnb is primarily a listing service and there is no law against advertising. If Airbnb is collecting rental money, they must collect and pay to the city the taxe de séjour. Airbnb has recently stated that they will do this but the evidence is lacking that they have ever done this in the past.
Interests who disagreed with this portion of the law have challenged its constitutionality. The final outcome is not yet known but this aspect is only part of the overall law.
The 4 month exemption is probably not going to be the initial thrust of enforcement. Ultimately, its enforcement will most likely result when neighbors make complaints. It would be relatively easy for the city to determine if any location is a primary or secondary residence based upon the address one uses for a driver´s license, tax returns, passport etc.
I believe that it was Adrian Leeds herself who stated that the city has 20 current inspectors enforcing ALUR.
The fines can be steep but most have been levied at 10,000€ per violation.
Airbnb is primarily a listing service and there is no law against advertising. If Airbnb is collecting rental money, they must collect and pay to the city the taxe de séjour. Airbnb has recently stated that they will do this but the evidence is lacking that they have ever done this in the past.
Mar 9th, 2015, 05:07 AM
#90
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The fines are indeed 10,000 euros per rental property, and the owner must agree to stop renting immediately upon being sanctioned. All advertising is supposed to be withdrawn, though some people are not doing this.
However, none of the people currently staying in the apartment will be fined, none will be thrown out into the street, and they may continue to stay until the end of their current rental contract.
If the property owner continues to rent after being sanctioned, he must pay 1,000 EU per square meter of space, per rental unit, per day that the property is rented. So, a rental unit measuring 35 sq meters would cost the owner 35,000 EU per day...
I saw a report recently that stated that only 25 property owners were fined in 2014, but already 150 have been sanctioned in 2015.
However, none of the people currently staying in the apartment will be fined, none will be thrown out into the street, and they may continue to stay until the end of their current rental contract.
If the property owner continues to rent after being sanctioned, he must pay 1,000 EU per square meter of space, per rental unit, per day that the property is rented. So, a rental unit measuring 35 sq meters would cost the owner 35,000 EU per day...
I saw a report recently that stated that only 25 property owners were fined in 2014, but already 150 have been sanctioned in 2015.
May 2nd, 2015, 11:27 AM
#91
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Just to update, completed a 5 day stay in an apt near St. Sulpice metro, to the west of it.
Listed on Flipkey and booked though My Apartment in Paris. They directed me to their site for the credit card payments, 50% to reserve and 50% a month before the stay.
All of the communications by email, though the last two weeks before the stay, I stopped getting replies. When we arrived, there was nobody to meet us.
I walked over to their office at rue du Fleurus, about 5:30 PM on Saturday. They would have closed by 6 PM. They said an agent would have been there by 5:30 PM.
So the agent let us in, took down my credit card number as security deposit. He showed all the features of the apt. He had someone bring over some detergent Monday for the washing machine.
Asked him about the Mayor cracking down on vacation rentals. He was skeptical they could shut down all rentals and thinks they want tax money.
During the time we were there we saw residents in the stairs and elevators. They didn't seem particularly bothered to see American tourists in the building.
Listed on Flipkey and booked though My Apartment in Paris. They directed me to their site for the credit card payments, 50% to reserve and 50% a month before the stay.
All of the communications by email, though the last two weeks before the stay, I stopped getting replies. When we arrived, there was nobody to meet us.
I walked over to their office at rue du Fleurus, about 5:30 PM on Saturday. They would have closed by 6 PM. They said an agent would have been there by 5:30 PM.
So the agent let us in, took down my credit card number as security deposit. He showed all the features of the apt. He had someone bring over some detergent Monday for the washing machine.
Asked him about the Mayor cracking down on vacation rentals. He was skeptical they could shut down all rentals and thinks they want tax money.
During the time we were there we saw residents in the stairs and elevators. They didn't seem particularly bothered to see American tourists in the building.
May 3rd, 2015, 06:54 AM
#92
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So did you arrive before the appointed check in time, or did the apartment manager fail to show up on time?
You were lucky that the agent brought you detergent - most places will not do this. If there's some left around you can use it, if not, you have to go buy it yourself.
So the residents "didn't seem particularly bothered to see American tourists in the building" - That's because most residents are much too polite to let you see how they really feel, and are busy suing the person who owns the apartment you rented.
I know several buildings where the residents would have come after you with flaming torches and pitchforks.
But again, you were lucky.
You were lucky that the agent brought you detergent - most places will not do this. If there's some left around you can use it, if not, you have to go buy it yourself.
So the residents "didn't seem particularly bothered to see American tourists in the building" - That's because most residents are much too polite to let you see how they really feel, and are busy suing the person who owns the apartment you rented.
I know several buildings where the residents would have come after you with flaming torches and pitchforks.
But again, you were lucky.
May 3rd, 2015, 07:27 AM
#93
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<i>He was skeptical they could shut down all rentals and thinks they want tax money.</i>
I´ll agree that the illegal rental market will not change in a day. It will take time but as more and more investors begin losing the lucrative short term rental returns taken from illegal activity, more and more properties will be either sold to people who want to live in them or they will be leased for the normal, minimum one year duration.
<i>thinks they want tax money</i>
This is correct but not a comprehensive analysis at all. There is a chronic housing shortage for residents in Paris and returning properties to residential use is a major concern; there are angry hotel owners who see competitors operating without regulation and without insurance coverage and other costs that hotels must incur, there are angry residents who see their communities turned into transient neighborhoods void of businesses such as dry cleaners and others who make up what the French call <i>les petits métiers</i>, and there are building residents who really do not like the idea of a constant flow of strangers given access to a building´s interior.
<i>They didn't seem particularly bothered to see American tourists in the building.</i>
No, they will rarely complain to you personally. And unless you are fluent in French, maybe they have and you didn´t understand what they were saying. Still, the initial thrust of enforcement has been in response to complaints by neighbors of noise by those renting vacation apartments and the cavalier attitudes of many of these visitors.
No, I do not think that it will change quickly, but it will change.
I´ll agree that the illegal rental market will not change in a day. It will take time but as more and more investors begin losing the lucrative short term rental returns taken from illegal activity, more and more properties will be either sold to people who want to live in them or they will be leased for the normal, minimum one year duration.
<i>thinks they want tax money</i>
This is correct but not a comprehensive analysis at all. There is a chronic housing shortage for residents in Paris and returning properties to residential use is a major concern; there are angry hotel owners who see competitors operating without regulation and without insurance coverage and other costs that hotels must incur, there are angry residents who see their communities turned into transient neighborhoods void of businesses such as dry cleaners and others who make up what the French call <i>les petits métiers</i>, and there are building residents who really do not like the idea of a constant flow of strangers given access to a building´s interior.
<i>They didn't seem particularly bothered to see American tourists in the building.</i>
No, they will rarely complain to you personally. And unless you are fluent in French, maybe they have and you didn´t understand what they were saying. Still, the initial thrust of enforcement has been in response to complaints by neighbors of noise by those renting vacation apartments and the cavalier attitudes of many of these visitors.
No, I do not think that it will change quickly, but it will change.
Jun 26th, 2015, 11:16 AM
#94
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New article on airbnb, which has $24 billion valuation.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121473...58032330315292
Paris is its biggest market, a fact that Paris touts even as it tries to crack down on illegal tourist apt. Rentals.
Apparently airbnb lobbied and successfully won part time rentals from the French govt.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121473...58032330315292
Paris is its biggest market, a fact that Paris touts even as it tries to crack down on illegal tourist apt. Rentals.
Apparently airbnb lobbied and successfully won part time rentals from the French govt.
Jun 26th, 2015, 11:57 AM
#95
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There has been no "successfully won part time rentals from the French govt" on the part of AirBnB or anyone else. That's only wishful thinking.
Mr Chesky is using Paris to promote his business and make his fortune, but there has been no change in AirBnB's status in Paris.
The Mayor's crackdown is continuing through this Summer, including AirBnB rentals and especially anyone else who has a large internet presence.
Mr Chesky is using Paris to promote his business and make his fortune, but there has been no change in AirBnB's status in Paris.
The Mayor's crackdown is continuing through this Summer, including AirBnB rentals and especially anyone else who has a large internet presence.
Jun 26th, 2015, 03:51 PM
#97
>>regardless of being called immoral by some of these lovely people living in Paris.<<
So let the locals be damned?? You certainly must understand why some Parisians are not happy w/ airbnb (and by association, some of their clients).
Instead of posting something like 'Well, we have an airbnb booking next week, sure hope it works out OK. We'll reconsider next time we visit' You come across like "How dare Paris try to control <u>its own</u> housing market. They should be happy we are visiting."
So let the locals be damned?? You certainly must understand why some Parisians are not happy w/ airbnb (and by association, some of their clients).
Instead of posting something like 'Well, we have an airbnb booking next week, sure hope it works out OK. We'll reconsider next time we visit' You come across like "How dare Paris try to control <u>its own</u> housing market. They should be happy we are visiting."
Jun 26th, 2015, 11:08 PM
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<i>Is it really being done for the residents of Paris.</i>
Not wanting to oversimplify a rather comprehensive law dealing with many elements of the housing markets, the answer is yes.
The mayor´s office has stated that two more crackdown sweeps are planned in the near future: one in the Latin Quarter and a second in Montmartre. Anyone renting apartments in those areas in the upcoming months should keep close contact with their landlords.
Not wanting to oversimplify a rather comprehensive law dealing with many elements of the housing markets, the answer is yes.
The mayor´s office has stated that two more crackdown sweeps are planned in the near future: one in the Latin Quarter and a second in Montmartre. Anyone renting apartments in those areas in the upcoming months should keep close contact with their landlords.
