Air France Terrorist Alert Incident at Heathrow
Dec 14th, 2006, 12:52 AM
#21
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I don't understand this post.
Air France are saying they won't provide <b> compensation </b>. They're legally 100% in the right about this, and I suspect asking for help from a journalist on an obscure foreign magazine hardly any Air France passenger or shareholder reads is going to be a total waste of energy. The issue isn't 261/2004: the reason he's not going to get compensation is that the force majeure principle is embedded in the Montral Convention.
But Steve Young's post reads as if he's asking for a <b> refund </b> on a flight Air france cancelled. And, as I read 261/2004 (http://tinyurl.com/ygdwpy), the force majeure limitations on compensation (artcle 7) don't apply to the absolute requirement for refund (article 8)
I'm no lawyer, amd the poster doubtless can read as well as I can.
Is Air France muddying the waters, has the poster started the muddying by asking for compensation or is there something else we've not been told here?
Because if my reading's correct, the poster should stop asking our advice and just file a civil suit in his local court.
Air France are saying they won't provide <b> compensation </b>. They're legally 100% in the right about this, and I suspect asking for help from a journalist on an obscure foreign magazine hardly any Air France passenger or shareholder reads is going to be a total waste of energy. The issue isn't 261/2004: the reason he's not going to get compensation is that the force majeure principle is embedded in the Montral Convention.
But Steve Young's post reads as if he's asking for a <b> refund </b> on a flight Air france cancelled. And, as I read 261/2004 (http://tinyurl.com/ygdwpy), the force majeure limitations on compensation (artcle 7) don't apply to the absolute requirement for refund (article 8)
I'm no lawyer, amd the poster doubtless can read as well as I can.
Is Air France muddying the waters, has the poster started the muddying by asking for compensation or is there something else we've not been told here?
Because if my reading's correct, the poster should stop asking our advice and just file a civil suit in his local court.
Dec 14th, 2006, 01:47 AM
#24
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Of course I don't read Conde Nast Traveler (sic). Nor would I if it could spell properly.
More importantly, hardly anyone else does. With a circulation of 780,000 it might think it's important: many small magazines suffer from similar delusions.
But it's just 1% of the 70 million passengers Air France/KLM carried last year.
More importantly, hardly anyone else does. With a circulation of 780,000 it might think it's important: many small magazines suffer from similar delusions.
But it's just 1% of the 70 million passengers Air France/KLM carried last year.
Dec 14th, 2006, 02:10 AM
#25
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I dont need to see the letter or docs Steve. I believe you. I can see them telling you that they had no idea when they could get you out considering the fear of a major terrorist plot. I dont think it unusual that they chose to cancel all flights. I am glad you and your family were able to get on the train and continue your vacation with minimum interruption.
I think they should give you at least credit for another flight equal to the face value of the unused leg. Did you only ask for a refund in your letter? If so you might want to try again and request credit towards a future flight.
I think they should give you at least credit for another flight equal to the face value of the unused leg. Did you only ask for a refund in your letter? If so you might want to try again and request credit towards a future flight.
Dec 14th, 2006, 05:23 AM
#26
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"War, invasion, hostilities, rebellion, insurrection.
which one of those includes an event that never occurred?"
Isn't it clear? The hostilities of Air France, of course. In other words since Air France is clearly a hostile airling, the travel insurance will never work with them. . .
Seriously, I have to ask -- would they have given you an alternative flight -- one later? Did you notify them BEFORE you took the train instead.
I've been on many delayed flights for all kinds of reasons, and I do know that if as soon as the flight was delayed or even cancelled, if I just walked out of the airport, I sure couldn't expect to get my money back from that flight later on. I'm with kerouac on this one -- I think you should have been allowing Air France to find you alternate transportation. Simply deciding you didn't want to wait to find out what that might be was the same as throwing your ticket away, in my book.
which one of those includes an event that never occurred?"
Isn't it clear? The hostilities of Air France, of course. In other words since Air France is clearly a hostile airling, the travel insurance will never work with them. . .
Seriously, I have to ask -- would they have given you an alternative flight -- one later? Did you notify them BEFORE you took the train instead.
I've been on many delayed flights for all kinds of reasons, and I do know that if as soon as the flight was delayed or even cancelled, if I just walked out of the airport, I sure couldn't expect to get my money back from that flight later on. I'm with kerouac on this one -- I think you should have been allowing Air France to find you alternate transportation. Simply deciding you didn't want to wait to find out what that might be was the same as throwing your ticket away, in my book.
Dec 14th, 2006, 05:42 AM
#27
I imagine it happened like this:
Air France said: All of our flights are cancelled today. We do not know when they will resume. We cannot get you on a flight today. Take one of these cards with our phone number and we will tell you what we can do as soon as we have more information. If you can't wait, you will have to find your own transportation to Paris, for example, the Eurostar.
I do not think that they said:
All of our flights are cancelled today. Your ticket has lost all validity as per European rules. You can go ahead and swim to France for all we care. (Well, they might have said that last line to some of the most irate passengers.) Take this card with our phone number as a souvenir.
Air France said: All of our flights are cancelled today. We do not know when they will resume. We cannot get you on a flight today. Take one of these cards with our phone number and we will tell you what we can do as soon as we have more information. If you can't wait, you will have to find your own transportation to Paris, for example, the Eurostar.
I do not think that they said:
All of our flights are cancelled today. Your ticket has lost all validity as per European rules. You can go ahead and swim to France for all we care. (Well, they might have said that last line to some of the most irate passengers.) Take this card with our phone number as a souvenir.
Dec 14th, 2006, 12:40 PM
#29
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<<Of course I don't read Conde Nast Traveler (sic). Nor would I if it could spell properly.>>
That is the way it is spelled because it's a publication in the USA. British vs. American spelling conventions on doubling consonants before endings such as -er or -ing varies in some cases (e.g., travelling vs. traveling). I think it mainly varies when the word ends in a single "l".
That ombudsman in the magazine does a lot of phone calls to try to straighten things out and is pretty good. Partly because companies know they may be described in print, I suppose, and are more responsive to the magazine than an individual. Often the problem can be because the complaintant conveniently omits part of the story or didn't follow correct procedures. YOu never know, they might find this case of interest, but they probably get thousands of requests and only print one a month. Some of the ones they print are pretty lame IMO, so this could be better than many.
It isn't clear to me what happened either, as the quote from AF is in reference to "compensation" and that language is used in the directive to mean punitive damages above and beyond the cost of the flight/ticket. It sounds like the OP just made other arrangements and expected to get a refund, while AF would not expect to give refunds of the ticket, but to accommodate people on other flights or something, but the OP never came back and never asked. That was a long time ago, also, and it could be a request for refund due to that extraordinary situation has past. I believe AF was extending the validity of those air tickets for one month when that happened, so maybe that was an issue in this case.
I suspect there is more to this story than we are hearing, in terms of what Air France said originally or in reply, and what the requirements were to get a refund or take another flight because of that cancellation. In any case, it was just a flight from London to Paris, so the cost can't be that great. The OP said they were in the middle of a very long vacation, and then didn't even call AF until a while after they got back from it, so perhaps that is the issue.
That is the way it is spelled because it's a publication in the USA. British vs. American spelling conventions on doubling consonants before endings such as -er or -ing varies in some cases (e.g., travelling vs. traveling). I think it mainly varies when the word ends in a single "l".
That ombudsman in the magazine does a lot of phone calls to try to straighten things out and is pretty good. Partly because companies know they may be described in print, I suppose, and are more responsive to the magazine than an individual. Often the problem can be because the complaintant conveniently omits part of the story or didn't follow correct procedures. YOu never know, they might find this case of interest, but they probably get thousands of requests and only print one a month. Some of the ones they print are pretty lame IMO, so this could be better than many.
It isn't clear to me what happened either, as the quote from AF is in reference to "compensation" and that language is used in the directive to mean punitive damages above and beyond the cost of the flight/ticket. It sounds like the OP just made other arrangements and expected to get a refund, while AF would not expect to give refunds of the ticket, but to accommodate people on other flights or something, but the OP never came back and never asked. That was a long time ago, also, and it could be a request for refund due to that extraordinary situation has past. I believe AF was extending the validity of those air tickets for one month when that happened, so maybe that was an issue in this case.
I suspect there is more to this story than we are hearing, in terms of what Air France said originally or in reply, and what the requirements were to get a refund or take another flight because of that cancellation. In any case, it was just a flight from London to Paris, so the cost can't be that great. The OP said they were in the middle of a very long vacation, and then didn't even call AF until a while after they got back from it, so perhaps that is the issue.
Dec 14th, 2006, 01:01 PM
#30
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To get a refund from Air France, it’s good to have a travel agent who simply won’t give up.
My wife and I were scheduled to go to Paris for a week in October 2001. Then 9/11 happened, and we canceled the trip. Anne, our travel agent and a friend of the family, advised us on how we might get a voucher from Air France for a round-trip flight sometime in the future when we might want to travel to Paris again, and even how we might get a refund in the form of a credit card credit. Dazed and distraught over 9/11 (I was in NYC that day), I went through the motions of following her advice, but I gave up rather quickly, resigned to taking the financial hit.
I’ll never quite know what she did but Anne took up the battle for us and somehow managed to get us that refund credit (it came to around $1,200). I know it was her persistence that carried the day — and who knows? Maybe the French were feeling a little sympathy for American travelers at the time.
My wife and I were scheduled to go to Paris for a week in October 2001. Then 9/11 happened, and we canceled the trip. Anne, our travel agent and a friend of the family, advised us on how we might get a voucher from Air France for a round-trip flight sometime in the future when we might want to travel to Paris again, and even how we might get a refund in the form of a credit card credit. Dazed and distraught over 9/11 (I was in NYC that day), I went through the motions of following her advice, but I gave up rather quickly, resigned to taking the financial hit.
I’ll never quite know what she did but Anne took up the battle for us and somehow managed to get us that refund credit (it came to around $1,200). I know it was her persistence that carried the day — and who knows? Maybe the French were feeling a little sympathy for American travelers at the time.
