Newbie00

Hi all

after reading this forum extensively and much advice, our first trip to Europe last year was a huge success ... and we have decided we are going back.

We is Husband, myself and daughter (who will be 8)

last time we went to Paris, Loire Valley, Provence, Venice, Lake Como, Sondrio, Amalfi Coast, a cruise and Rome ... so we got a bit of an overview.

this time around we want
- to spend longer with the family we have in Sondrio
- to go back to Rome, as last time Rome was at the end and we were completely shattered so there was a lot we missed
- to go to Florence
- to go to Switzerland. We both LOVED the mountains ...

so tentative plan - to go September next year

Fly to Zurich
3 nights Montreux
4 nights Wengen
3 nights Lucerne
3 nights Bellagio
7 nights Sondrio (with family)
4 nights Florence
3 nights Assisi
4 nights Rome

Montreux just to get over the flight and relax. Last time it took a good few days to get over the jet lag so wanted somewhere that we could just chill

Wengen - I understand its a bit quiet at night, but that is fine with us ... having a child means not too much night life anyway Is it convenient to get to? Or is Lauterbrunnen a better place to base from (planning to tour around and see the gorgeous scenery, maybe some basic/easy hikes etc

Lucerne - can anyone suggest good quality hotels that are reasonably priced for 3? around CHF250 per night

Bellagio - been before so all is good.
Sondrio - staying with family who will also arrange touring around

Florence - looked at SleepinItaly apartment. They seem to have good reviews - any advice?

Assisi - we will not have a car - but will arrive in the afternoon, and leave in the morning ... so is only 2 days here. 1 day for Assisi itself and 1 day to see Spello and Perugia or something similar. A 'down' day if we dont feel like doing much

Rome - again SleepinItaly - near Piazza Navona

Any comments, advice, tips or ideas would be great

neckervd

Do you really want to spend 3 nights at Bellagio? It's only little more than 1 hr from Sondrio!
Wengen is sunnier than Lauterbrunnen and has much better views to the mountains; furthermore, it's carfree.
I would stay in the old city of Perugia: has much more character than Assisi IMHO

jamikins

As you missed a lot of Rome last time because it was at the end I would put it first so you don't feel the same way.

steve_Australia

Sounds fantastic - reminds me of our trip in 2012 where we stayed in many of the same places.

I agree with Neckervd regarding Wengen.

As far as Florence, we stayed at an apartment complex - Residenza Il Carmine - which is still one of our favourite locations in 14 weeks of travelling through Europe of the past 2 years.

It was roomy, overlooked a garden setting, was very secure and the landlords were lovely, helpful and generous. Also, for the size of the apartment we rented, it was very inexpensive. We stayed at the INCENSO APARTMENT for 5 nights and it was only 90 EUR per night. The website to visit is:

http://www.residenzailcarmine.com/e_1.htm

Have fun!

Dukey1

You might want to go to Luzern from Zurich FIRST and THEN go to Wengen and THEN go into Italy to the lake via Milan...or you could get really adventurous and go to Lugano and take a bus over to Menaggio and a short ferry ride from there over to Bellagio.

That would avoid going to Milan and then to Varenna for Bellagio

Newbie00

neckervd - we did go to Bellagio last time, and thought it was the most beautiful place we have ever seen. so thought we would go back as it seems to fit so beautifully with our itinerary. The train from Lucerne to Como is 2 hrs, then a ferry ride to Bellago. Sondrio is on the train from Varenna so we avoid Milan ...

It is not the most important part.

jamikins - we did think about Rome first - but the weather in Switzerland is much better in Sept than Oct ... so Swiss first. Still, this time is only 4 weeks and last time was 6 so we are hoping that it will be ok.

Steve - thanks. will have a look

Dukey - Wengen to Bellagio is a bit of a long transfer though. Lucerne - Bellagio is fairly shortish (2 hrs to Como and a ferry or even a taxi to Bellagio makes it doable. with an 8 yr old shorter transfers are better)

Actually if we were to do it that way though, we could cut Montreux, and would cut Bellagio - giving us 6 days to do something else ... though I dont really know what

Newbie00

oh - I forgot ... can anyone else tell me about whether its better to be in Perugia or Assisi?

Hubby is Catholic and I LOVED the churches and things last time, so want to go to Assisi - but is a day trip and staying somewhere else better?

neckervd

Lucerne - Bellagio via Como (some examples):
Lucerne dp 08.47 - Como SG 12.15/12.42 - Bellagio Cementeria ar 13.44
Lucerne dp 12.18 - Como SG 15.46/16.07 - Bellagio Lungolago ar 17.17

Lucerne - Bellagio via Porlezza (some examples):
Lucerne dp 8.47 - Lugano ar 11.24 - taxi to Cassarate bus terminal - Cassarate dp 11.47 - Menaggio 12.42/13.10 - Bellagio ar 13.23
Lucerne dp 14.18 - Lugano ar 16.47 - bus or taxi to Cassarate bus terminal - Cassarate dp 17.22 - Menaggio 18.21/19.10 - Bellagio ar 19.35

Wengen - Bellagio via Spiez - Milano - Como (some examples):
Wengen dp 06.42 - Milano C 10.35/11.10 - Como SG 11.43/12.17 - Bellagio Lungolago ar 13.27
Wengen dp 12.03 - Milano C 16.35/17.10 - Como SG 17.43/12.10 - Bellagio Lungolago ar 19.20
Swiss timetables valid for next September; Italian timetables will chnage twice until then

kja

I spent one night in Wengen and 3 nights in Lauterbrunnen. I actually preferred Lauterbrunnen, in part because I love waterfalls and was glad to be so near to the Staubbach falls. It was also more convenient for exploring the area. I suspect that reactions to Lauterbrunnen depend on where one stays -- I was NOT in one of the places that was dark and faced a canyon wall. Instead, I stayed at the Hotel Staubbach, which I loved.

Newbie00

Necker - so in short

Wengen - Como the shortest one is 5hrs and leaves at 6.42am (not going to happen ) otherwise leaving at a decent time is 6.15-6.30.

Lucerne - Como is 3 hrs

Como - Bellagio I am not too averse to taking a taxi or arranging a transfer as it is around EUR80 or so which would be worth it for me.

a 5 hr transfer is very different to a 7 or 8 hr transfer when you have an 8 yr old.

thanks for the info though. It made me recheck those transfers and they are longer than I had thought.

My original plan was to skip Bellagio, go from Lucerne to Chur and then do the Bernina Express to Tirano and straight to Sondrio ... but its a LONG time on the train - gorgeous though it might be - and lots of train changes. Dunno about that.


The other thing is, Hubby isnt super keen on being at the very top of high mountains. He has agreed to one trip as junior wants to see and play in the snow ... but I am not sure I would convince him to go twice. If we do Wengen first, if we get a nice day we can do Jungfraujoch and all will be good. If its cloudy then when we get to Lucerne we can do Titlis.

If we go to Lucerne first I have to decide whether to do Titlis or not ... knowing if we do it, hubby wont do Jungfraujoch, but if we dont do it and then its cloudy or raining in Wengen we wont get any ...

All in all, I think Wengen first and Lucerne second is a better option.

Hope that makes sense.

neckervd

If you only want to go into snow and ice, you can it have closer to Sondrio too:
http://www.diavolezza.ch/en/
3 1/4 hr by public transport, less than 2 hrs if you have a car.
The Glacier at Stelvio Pass can also be reached in less than 2 hrs by car from Sondrio.

Lucerne - Como is 3 1/2 to 4 hrs.
May be you order a Italian taxi to Chiasso railway station (Italo-Swiss border). There are more trains from Lucerne to Chiasso: Lucerne dp 8.47 (direct), 9.40, 11.40, 13.40, 15.40, 17.40, 19.40, plus every hr from 6.18 until 22.18 (3 to 3 1/4 hrs journey), change at Arth Goldau or/and Lugano).

Most comfortable way: taxi from Lugano (2 1/2 hrs from Lucerne) to Bellagio (via Cadenabbia - Bellagio ferry).

PalenQ

Any comments, advice, tips or ideas would be great>

Assume you are going by train? Well to get to Wengen you must go by train in that quiet car-less town - a place many folks rave about - it's a 20-minute train ride beyond Lauterbrunnen so it is easy to get to with frequent trains - and the views are great - Lauterbrunnen is in a deep gorge - gorgeous views too but not the whole panorama of views like from Wengen or Grindelwald, my favorite in the hills base.

If going by train in Switzerland check out these superb IMO sites - www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com for lots of ideas - you are traveling enough to look at the Swiss Pass - probably a 3-day flexipass (saver) would be your best bet but also look at the Half-Fare Card though for that you need to know exactly what you are doing and will do no more - with a pass I always do more than I thought.

Newbie00

thanks Necker. I didnt think about going just to Chiasso. Thought about Lugano and taxi to Menaggio then ferry.

We have actually been up the Passo di Stelvio - though there wasnt very much snow (little drifts on the side of the road). Was fun though

Ok - new plan though
3 nights Montreux
4 nights Wengen
3 nights Lucerne
2 nights Bellagio
6 nights Sondrio
1 night Milan
5 nights Florence
3 nights Perugia
4 nights Rome

I really want to see the Duomo and Last Supper in Milan. I dont usually like 1 nighters ... but there isnt that much more in Milan that I want to see - had thought about just a day trip from Sondrio ... but thought it would be easier just to do it on the way to Florence.

I decided you (whoever suggested it) was right about Perugia v Assisi, and found a nice hotel I am happy with

Added extra night to Florence - can leave for Perugia in the morning and have some extra time there too


Ok - any suggestions for hotels in Lucerne? Not looking for 5* but something nice, clean, and near the bridge.

PalenQ

had thought about just a day trip from Sondrio ... but thought it would be easier just to do it on the way to Florence.>

I would re-consider and do it as a day trip from Sondrio - with family perhaps who know the ropes - otherwise you have to haul your luggage around - stash it in a train station luggage office (often long lines IME to get served) - then go downtown and back - not sure you know how long it will take - trains have to be pinned down in Italy in advance - can't just hop on, etc.

PalenQ

Ok - new plan though
3 nights Montreux
4 nights Wengen
3 nights Lucerne

For the Swiss portion look at the 3-day Swiss Flexipass as your best bet - you get 3 100% covered travel days for your longer trips and then 50% off practically everything that moves in Switzerland on the days in between your first and last unlimited travel day. A 3-day Flexipass is almost always a better deal than a 4-day or longer one.

PalenQ

(2 hrs to Como and a ferry or even a taxi to Bellagio makes it doable. with an 8 yr old shorter transfers are better)>

Como's mainline train station with trains from Lucerne/Arth Goldau via the Gotthard Tunnel route is quite a long way from the ferry docks so if you have to take a taxi from that station to the docks you may as well keep going the extra few miles to Bellagio.

Como's secondary train station - Como Nord is right at the ferry docks so it gives you seemless transfers for trains to Milan or Malpensa Airport from it.

Newbie00

Thanks PalenQ

Right, so definitely taxi from Como to Bellagio then. Sorted.

For Milan - the luggage was why I thought maybe an overnight. That way we would just arrive in the evening, stay that night and have a hotel to leave our bags the next day for doing our thing, then train to Florence in the afternoon. ???

but staying the extra night in Sondrio and doing it as a day trip would be cheaper as free accom

neckervd

"so definitely taxi from Como to Bellagio then"
It's up to you to waste time and money. Have a nice trip!

PalenQ

"so definitely taxi from Como to Bellagio then"
It's up to you to waste time and money. Have a nice trip!>

How is this a waste of time - seems the most time efficient from Lugano.>

Please give a better way that is quicker and cheaper? I note your recommendation above but can't quite figure it out!

Thanks

neckervd

Read my posts above: I cannot repeat the same again and again.

Some facts nevertheless:

newbie is NOT looking for a cheap solution, he told somewhere above that he wanted to take a taxi from Lugano railway station up to Menaggio/Cadenabbia ferry. He found that it was worth to pay more for a taxi if he could reduce the railway journey time to 2 hrs or so. In the meantime, he obviously changed his mind.
Furthermore, he wants to stay 3 nights at Bellagio with his whole family, only about 1hr away from Sondrio, where they could stay for free.

I gave him the whole timetables from Lucerne up to Bellagio, bus (which leaves from Como San Giovanni railway station, BTW) included (Oct 13th)

He saw that he would have to wait some 20 min to the bus (at Como SG) and replied, that in this case he would prefer to pay 110 USD for a taxi.
I then suggested to take the taxi at Chiasso/Ponte Chiasso instead of Como in order to save 1/2 hr (the Lucerne - Milan train has a long layover at Chiasso).
A standard ticket Lucerne - Como SG costs 66 CHF (15 CHF with SwissPass)
A standard ticket Lucerne - Chiasso costs 62 CHF (nothing with SwissPass)
He replied then that he prefers to take the taxi at Lugano.

Timetable links:
http://www.fahrplanentwurf.ch/filead...f/2014/631.pdf
http://www.sptlinea.it/Portals/5/Doc...linea%2030.pdf