Geez. I made the simple observation that in FRANCE on a FRENCH national holiday the colors of the fireworks were those of ITALY, not France. I did not suggest that Corsicans are Italians.

By the way the colors of the Corsican National flag are black and white. But in any event I was describing a French national holiday, not a Corsican one.

I'm really sorry that the irony of the color of the firworks for Bastille Day is too complex a concept for you. It was a minor observation that some might find interesting -- not an attempt to start a major debate of politics. Some Americans might also be amused if their local Fourth of July Fireworks were all purple and green instead of red, white, and blue. Obviously you wouldn't be surprised by that at all. Different things amuse us, that's all.

I didn't realize that France had a problem with economic growth- is it true?

%%-

There was an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal about the protests and mentioned a poll that was taken by people from various countries and the French were the only people where the majority of the people polled didn't believe that the free market was the best way to handle labor issues (only 37% thought the market was better). This was much lower than even the Chinese.

>a poll that was taken by people from various countries and the French were the only people where the majority of the people polled didn't believe that the free market was the best way to handle labor issues

What would be interesting is to see the questions asked in the poll, in French. By even slightly changing the wording you can influence the poll results a lot - it is well known...

Is there only one way to achieve economic growth. Gosh.

From where I’m sitting (Australia) this is interesting. As we float somewhere between the US and Europe in relation to what we expect from the state, and our scepticism about the virtues of the free market, I’ve found my sympathies bouncing back and forth as I read.

Clearly the much-vaunted French quality of life leaves too many of its citizens out in the cold (i.e., unemployed and poor). But so does the much-vaunted American money machine (working and poor). So, while the French have their problems, I find it difficult to see how anyone could prescribe an undiluted American model as a cure.

If I can put in a word for a middle way: Australia has its problems, but we’ve managed to combine a vigorous economy, low unemployment and moderate taxation with a reasonable social safety net that includes universal health insurance and income support for the unemployed, students etc. Very few of us would want to swap our conditions for those of either France or the US.

A few stats from the CIA World Fact Book:

GDP per capita US$:
US 41.8K – FR 29.9K – AU 32.0K

GDP growth:
US 3.5% - FR 2.7% - AU 1.5%

Public debt (% of GDP):
US 64.7% - FR 66.5% - AU 16.2%

Unemployment:
US 5.1% – FR 10.0% – AU 5.2%

Fertility rate:
US 2.08 – FR 1.85 – AU 1.76

Infant mortality/1000:
US 6.5 – FR 4.7 – AU 4.3

Life expectancy (yrs):
US 77.7 – FR 79.6 – AU 80.4

HIV/AIDS prevalence %:
US 0.6 – FR 0.4 – AU 0.1

Literacy (% adults):
US 97 – FR 99 – AU 100

Pop below poverty line:
US 12%- FR 6.5% - AU na

oldie,

You made snide comments about Cato's use of English.

What about your own? &quot;… <u>France is</u> obviously doomed. One great advantage <u>they</u> possess …&quot;

hi Neil,
As a fellow Aussie, (living in London), i can only concur with your sentiments.

Too many people have an either/or approach, as though there are only two approaches to economic development. Countries achieve economic success in a myriad of ways - some more state orientated, others more free-market and as you correctly pointed others, like Australia, somewhere in between.

What I found annoying was the arrogance of some posters that only one form of economic development is possible. A patronising position....

Hi Neil_Oz,

In no way do I wish to seem that I am disparaging OZ.

You must keep in mind that comparing a country with a population of 20M to those with 3 to 15 times that number is risky.

The US has a very large population of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. These populations, unlike in Australia, are from 3rd world countries.

So does France. (Some are third and fourth generation.)

Small, homogeneous populations can provide all sorts of social services and keep everyone happy.

Large, diverse populations are much more difficult to deal with.

I'm mildly amused by this thread because I remember when the French would lecture the US on how to handle its racial problems, the Germans and then the Japanese would lecture us on how to run our economy, and the Soviet Union told us &quot;we will bury you&quot;.

I also recall that the Luddites tried to destroy the new textile mills that had water-powered looms, fearing that the new machines would destroy their livelihoods.

((I))

Quote:
<i>So young adults, get ready to enter this new workers paradise, where the loss of a job is only a mangers discretion away.</i>

It was ever thus, here in the great state of Illinois. And we're doing just fine, thank you.

While it is true that &quot;at will&quot; employment may lead to the occasional unjust firing...it is equally true that employees are free to quit their jobs at the drop of a hat as well.

Believe me, there are far worse tragedies in this world than being an employee (or employer) on an at-will basis.

Good point, Mr_Go.

Consider the employer who is suddenly confronted with an employee who says, &quot;I have a job offer from someone else for XXX amount more. Match it or I leave&quot;.

Shouldn't the employee have to prove that he is not causing undo hardship to the employer?

Shouldn't the employer be compensated for the cost of training a new employee?

((I))

Fantastic for Illinois. As has already been stated - merely because it's appropriate in Illinois or the USA does not make it necessarily appropriate in another country.

Ira:

Tsk, tsk...surely you meant &quot;undue&quot; instead of &quot;undo&quot;.

Ira,

A french employee can't leave at the drop of a hat. He must give notice 1 to 3 months (generally) in advance. This duration is equal to the duration of the notice the employer would have to give if he fired the employee for a legitimate cause not related to a faulty behavior of the employee.

Otherwise the employee must pay an indemnity to his employer equal to the amount the employer would have paid for him (salary+ taxes+ contribution to the healthcare system, etc...) during the same period.

If an employee leave it of course might signifiantly inconvenience its employers, who needs time to find anoter candiate, might need the former employee to train him, or to finish some duty in prgogress, etc.. The french &quot;undetermined duration contract&quot; of course brings obligations to both parties.

B+

Yes, Ira, those Japanese &quot;lectures&quot; about how to run our economy have apparently resulted in a wonderful trade deficit and and an even more wonderful exchange rate Yen vs. the Dollar.

And American auto makers thought they could keep turning out the same types of vehicles until those pesky Japanese rolled in with their fuel-efficient Hondas.

Hi Cato

Thanks for the interesting post. I don't share your concern about low birth rates. Alot of the world's problems can be solved by simply reducing the global population. Think about it - what would France be like if all it had to offer was shared with half the number of people it has now. Isn't this why China is so desperate to reduce its population?

It is only the Captains of industry who advocate a ten fold increase in population. After all this means a ten fold increase in markets = profits. While they live in mansions everyone else will be confined in filthy squalor. Don't believe the rhetoric about the evils of a falling birth rate. Ultimately, in an advanced society there is plenty for all not just for a priveleged few.

I say free condoms for all!

ira, that's a fair point, up to a point (and no disparagement from this end either).

However, Australia is far from being homogeneous - 40% of us are 1st- or 2nd-generation immigrants, and for the last few decades most new arrivals have flowed from Asia, the Middle East and other &quot;third world&quot; countries. We're certainly not more homogoneous than France. I think my comments could apply also to Canada, which is more diverse again.

One problem we don't have is America's historical legacy of the slave trade. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that rather than the absorption of later immigrants seems to be the biggest challenge to achieving greater social equity. That, and perhaps the will in certain quarters to achieve it, a will which I stress is also lacking within my current government.

But if I'm off-beam in comparing Australia to larger populations, I respectfully submit that the OP is just as far off in comparing France to the US. I'm not arguing that France doesn't need an injection of the flexibility seen in the English-speaking countries, but I suspect that a US-style cure as favoured by Cato would be worse than the disease. There are more moderate means to the end.

I forgot to say that the Australian government has just enacted deeply unpopular laws designed to tip the balance of power further away from unions. The fact that we're not out on the streets like the French is a sign of apathy rather than good sense, I'm afraid.

Gee, Neil_Oz, I didn't realize that the ballot box was no longer available in Australia to redress wrongs.

And your point, jsmith, is...?

Why Hell . . they are still making good wine are they not? ?

Neil, if you don't like the laws that are passed then elect different people to get the laws rescinded. I think it's a rather simple concept in a democracy.

Regarding the birth rates, I was refering to &quot;ethnic French.&quot; I concede the point that emigrant birth rates are high and boost the overall national rate.

Rich, to get off of the subject of politics (or maybe it still is the subject) I just read yesterday that winemakers in France will soon be allowed to put woodchips in their wine to give the wine an oak flavor rather than the wine obtaining the oak flavor from oak barrels. The article said that this is permissable in the US. First time I had heard of that. Some older French winemakers were quoted as saying &quot;this will be the end of the excellent reputation of French wine&quot;.

Neil, are winemakers allowed to put woodchips in Australian wines?

It's way too soon to be writing France off. All countries have their ups and downs. Do we remember serious articles in the press during the 70s with apocalyptic headlines like &quot;Is Britain Dying?&quot; Then, Britain was the perennial basket-case of Europe, and true reform was only possible, given the consensual nature of industrialised democracies, when things were so dire that the patient stopped crunching the painkillers and finally consented to the unpalatable emergency surgery it had been dreading for so long (the scars have still not healed, but at least the prognosis is better). In this sense, France is a victim of its own success: its social measures to palliate the worst distresses of a market economy have, until recently, been affordable. France has one of the highest rates of productivity in the OECD, first rate infrastructure, a number of highly profitable companies at the forefront of gloabalisation (si!), and many other cheering facts and figures which keep France ticking over and therefore make reform more difficult. It'll happen. Great nations don't just die like that. What has been notable I think is the shockingly woeful leadership of France's politicians: Chirac is a disaster, as is always the case when vanity is married to incompetence. France will revive, but not until it has the leaders it deserves.

Neil OZ. I know thats you cousin, we will argue Au Vs. USA over a Pint in Bushes in June. You have turned me into a Fan of the All Black.

Hi Robdaddy
&gt;Ira:

Tsk, tsk...surely you meant &quot;undue&quot; instead of &quot;undo&quot;. &lt;

Very sharp of you to notice the &quot;mistake&quot; that I intentionally inserted. :)

You get a gold star. :)

((I))

Thanks, Preternat, for posting the most sensible and least jingoistic comments on this thread.

Hi clairobscur,

Thank you.

It would seem to me that requiring 3 months notice to leave a position would tend to reduce workforce mobility (whether upward or sideways).

When I was in the professor business, I was expected to finsh the academic year before leaving one university for another. However, since everyone was constrained by the academic calendar this was not a problem.

In the case of the general workforce, it would seem that I would have great difficulty arranging to leave my current position to take a better one.

((I))

Ira, in practice it's common for people not to work the full 3 months notice period when they resign from a job. They often come to an arrangement with their employer (as I did when I worked in France). Also, prospective employers will know that most people have to give notice and so they can be quite flexible (in my experience, at least).

Also, the 3 month notice period is usually for people in &quot;cadre&quot; or &quot;ing&eacute;nieur&quot; (highly qualified) positions - there are 2 other basic staff categories in France, &quot;agent de ma&icirc;trise&quot; and &quot;employ&eacute;&quot;, which usually have to give two and one months notice, respectively.

Especially in cases where the employee is unhappy at the current job, the notice period is often reduced to the strict minimum -- it is very bad to make an unhappy employee stay on longer than is absolutely necessary (sabotage).

Does the French government have an effective plan to reduce the high unemployment rate for those under 26?

Even if it has a plan, clearly it is not effective. It would appear that it has come to terms with the idea that a higher level of unemployment must be tolerated than was tolerated in the past, and that those lucky enough to have a job will finance it. The strange fact that the poverty level of France is only half the poverty level of the U.S., which has half the unemployment that France does, does not at all help to decide which society has the upper hand.

degas - It is a sobering and unpleasant fact that war is very &quot;effective plan to reduce the high unemployment rate for those under 26&quot; and I don't mean that in a macabre sense.

Since the British are taking a tunnel load of vacations to France, fixing up old stone carcasses as gites...and then retiring to Charente-Maritime, the Dordogne and other venues in France, and see this as an escape from the crime ridden streets of some British cities...and doing this so much that there is a concern in many Aquitaine areas that English is being spoken by most people now...I would not worry that France is &quot;done&quot;...frankly it appears from the mobs of American tourists on Air France that nothing will stop the U.S. and British tourists and expatriots from breaking down the walls to come over and visit/live in France...they describe their affectation for France as: a wonderful country with mostly agricultural/forested lands, pleasing atomosphere, varied landscape, fabulous food, organized villages, and magnificent joie de vivre...as well as freedoms that they do not have in the U.S. and Great Britain...lack of censorship, treatment as an adult, discreet use of beaches, emphasis on athleticism of their youth...one can actually discuss philosophy and make wonderful gourmet meals without fear of being adjudged effeminate...etc. etc....this thread appears to be construed as basically a hit on France, which is always a popular escapade for Americans and British related peoples...methinks that those who continually insist on only responding to negative things about a person or a country are quite insecure regarding their relationship with that entity...and envious obviously. Americans in particular do not like anyone else to be independent.

&quot;You are with us or you are against us&quot;

Perhaps if america had intervened during the beginning of WWII, instead of allowing Hitler to take over Europe and bomb England for several years...requiring Churchill to plead with the U.S. congress for help...then the U.S. would not have had a Normandy Invasion in all of its horrible death and nobility...the U.S. entered WWI extremely late also, as the British and the French were fighting in the trenches for years prior to the posting of the Americans, who of course acted like they were the ones that won the war...I seem to remember a call that went up for every man, woman and teenager to take bicycle, cars, trucks or walk with whatever weapon they had to the front lines to protect Paris....don't thing that has happened in the U.S....we are astonished and outraged about Pearl Harbor (which was expected), and the twin towers...other than those attacks, we are not knowledgeable about war on our territory since the revolution...perhaps if we suffered the consequences of continual invasion over the years, we would be a bit more reserved about our own attitude in the U.S.....and the British should also reexamine their &quot;proud&quot; heritage...look for example at Waterloo...they were losing, and the Prussian Army save their ass...nowadays the British celebrate that victory...and the destruction of Napoleon's ships in Egypt?
They were empty of sailors...a good strategic move on the British part, however, they did not defeat the French on the high seas to say the least...again, celebrated highly by the British...the reality is that British/American attitudes toward the French are amazing. The French had ten sailors for every one American at the turning point of the Revolutionary War against Britain...they assisted the U.S. and drained their supplies in the process...then the British snuck in to Canada years later and attacked...hmmmm...do we support the Quebecois today? No. Interesting that we would not. And...the entire North American continent was controlled by the French at one point, they sold the U.S. one third of our country, prior to that surveyed most of it and even today hundreds of cities bear French names...Thomas Jefferson had to be begged to come home from France for years...he wrote that he had found paradise...blah, blah, blah...I find it so interesting that Americans do not honor the French...it is obviously a case similar to someone that loans you money, armies or whatever...you are beholden to them, and then eventually dislike associating with someone that knew your needs and helped you...a psychological issue...
American media only presents negative information about France...and they could care less....why would a great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather consider the comments of an immature teenager as hurtful or in any way substantive?

&lt;It is a sobering and unpleasant fact that war is very &quot;effective plan to reduce the high unemployment rate for those under 26&quot; and I don't mean that in a macabre sense&gt;

Why not? Malthus suggested in over 200 years ago.

Maybe the French should read Jonathan Swift's &quot;A Modest Proposal&quot;?

Westwood Whore

It is very sad thread and I think I felt exactly this 2 years ago when I went to Europe, I just did not know what it was and i thought that Paris need a fece lift...and you all were on my back...see now? Shame on you! LOL

Seriously 2 years ago when I visited my friend in Germany she was ok, not extremely happy but ok, but now they are seriously looking for the way to move to US. The problem is local goverments that are changing the law every day and no one actually knows what those laws are...
Do you know that losing job you have to sell your house and spend your deposit, then sell your sellable stuff and spend and only THEN you will be eligible for Unemployment benefits!!!
Barbaric? I was pretty scared and I went immediately 'God Bless America...' you know that song...
Also they invented nice way to reduce single parents benefits...people can just invade your home and if there some your boyfriend's stuff in a closet - mother loses benefits (they go through your stuff...literally, no appointments made, knock-knock-open the door-have visitors)...
I had my jaw dropped to the floor when she told me all that 'news'.
Anyone else to speak badly about USA?
I didn;t think so...

&gt; to sell your house and spend your deposit, then sell your sellable stuff and spend and only THEN you will be eligible for Unemployment benefits!!!
So much nonsense in just on single sentence. It's always bad to speak about things you &quot;heard&quot; from somewhere but actually have no idea of ;-)

And how did you hear this one? Give us better version...everyone is a critic!

logos, do you live in Germany as of NOW?