I agree with Attnymom, Grandmere, and Cigalchante. Happy Travels!

I appreicate reading detailed reports of hotels and of apartments. Unfortunately, not all of us share the same standards of acceptability.

I have rented several apartments in Paris but have never once used an oven in Paris so I would never have noticed whether the oven had been cleaned or not. One of our first purchases at Monprix every year is light bulbs. Every apartment and hotel room we've stayed in has had very dim lighting. The cleaning crews (not the owners) tend to do a pretty rudimentry job and not much else. I ususally leave the apartment cleaner than I found it. Someone I know saw a rat running around in an expensive Parsian cafe recently. The waiter just shrugged. so perhaps thay are not the neat freaks we are.
I've seen, and read, enough to know that we need to wipe down our hotel rooms and remove the bedspreads.Not to mention the discusting carpeting. I like that most apartments have tile or wood flooring.

We stayed in a rented mountian cabin last weekend. I had to completely clean the place myself and we had to buy lightbulbs, toilet tissue and papertowels. The owner asked us not to leave any traces of ourselves behind. She said people think they are doing her a favor by leaving stuff in the cupboards.

One Parsian apartnment we stayed in appeared to be very clean. I kept sneezing so began to investigate. Found the draperies were very dusty. So I got out the vacum cleaner and took care of it. It would never occur to me to complain publicly.

I would find unsafe wiring to be unacceptable and I would not have risked my family's safety by staying in a fire hazard

I would think 1 bathroom for 6 people to be unacceptable and a deal breaker for sure.

<i><font color=#777777>"The above stories of the burst pipe (where the owner helped the renter find alternative arrangements) and locking oneself out of the apartment are not analogous at all, IMO."</font></i>

Apartment rental horror stories are almost never identical but, by default, they are almost all analogous in the way agencies handle customers when things go wrong. In the examples I provided, none of the apartment owners played any role. In fact, the agencies refused to provide owner information when asked. In the changing lock story, the husband's attorney tried to find the name of the owner of the agency in an attempt to file a complaint with the French government. The agency owner's name was impossible to find for free. The lawyer concluded that he was a businessman who preferred to remain anonymous and unreachable.

Good post Suzanne. We stayed in an apartment last year in Rome. It has received many glowing reports on SlowTrav, TA etc. We could have taken pictures similar to the OPs. And there were ants for good measure. We wrote it off as part of staying on the ground floor of a very old building. Different sensitivities/approaches I suppose.

I agree wholeheartedly Suzanne, the OP seems to relish how horrid the apartment was without ever having tried to do anything to make it more comfortable herself.

My thoughts after reading the complaints were, why didn't they laugh it off and have a cleaning party. With 6 people if each one picked one area and cleaned for one hour, the place would have been immaculate and the rest of the stay would have been fine for all. Instead they lived in a filthy place for their entire stay, which for the life of me I can't understand. Is cleaning an apartment how I want to spend My vacation? Certainly not, but if it meant spending one hour to make a whole week more comfortable I would do it.

I'm just not one to make such a big deal about what seem like such liitle problems.

Sue__xx__YY made some excellent posts as well, expect that the number of guests that an apartment can accomodate might be on the more generous side. I can't imagine looking at that apartment and thinking it would be suitable for 6 adults. The photos are quite clear it is a small apartment for that number of people.

While I feel bad for Lizzie and agree that of course she has a right to post this here, I think Sue_XX_YY, Suzanne and texastrips all make great points. Personally I would not have rented an apartment that inexpensive in central Paris for 6 people without knowing someone else who had stayed there and could vouch for it. Not for the agency but for that particular apartment. That price is alarmingly low--as in alarms would go off for me.

Celticharper said:
<i>Instead they lived in a filthy place for their entire stay, which for the life of me I can't understand. Is cleaning an apartment how I want to spend My vacation? Certainly not, but if it meant spending one hour to make a whole week more comfortable I would do it. </i>

Yes, or I would have left immediately after first seeing the place and gone to a hotel. Why stay a week in a hellhole?

I'm not blaming Lizzie but since this is supposed to be a cautionary tale, I think discussing options available to people if/when they ever find themselves in this situation is perfectly valid.

Hey all,

I'm one of those apparently reprehensible agencies that occasionally gets kicked off these forums. Please give me a chance to make the case for us "middlemen."

Good agencies care a lot about providing the best experience, because we have enjoyed the same. When possible we get to know owners and view apartments so that we are comfortable with what we represent. Can we stay in or see them all? Not likely, and sometimes things change - then we have to find a way to make it right. I'm not sure how VIP works, but this thread is evidence that if agents don't go out of their way to keep clients happy their reputation and business will be damaged.

The whole point is to make the process as comfortable as possible and to get travelers in a place that suits their needs and desires. If we can do that we save clients countless hours at the computer and lessen their concerns, which are frequently expressed on this and other forums. Achieving satisfaction requires cooperation and honesty between the client, the agency and the owner. Yes, we do expect to be paid for that; it costs us several thousand dollars each time we go to Europe and while we'd choose to vacation there anyway, it wouldn't be as often and we wouldn't spend most of our weekdays visiting places we aren't staying in.

Anyway, kevin_widrow, we have some great places in Barcelona owned by conscientious folks who we have met, stayed with and walked through apartments with. I guess that line will get me kicked off again.

For those of you think the filthy conditions were the OP's responsibility to rectify, what are your thoughts about the burst pipe? Apparently there was filthy water on the floor which they had to clean up and no plumber to fix it during the duration of their stay. It is very easy for people here to say "well why didn't you go to a hotel?" They have already paid for the apartment. They should not have to double their accommodation expense by then renting a hotel on top of the apartment (and what if they couldn't afford it?)

Most of us on this thread have rented apartments in Europe and we are used to the weird plumbing, small beds, goofy lighting, etc. . . All of that is fine - and part of the charm/adventure of renting an apartment. What is not fine is filthy conditions, broken plumbing and misrepresentations by the agency. I am by no means saying the apartment has to be in perfect condition without a spec of dust, but -as anyone who has looked at the pictures can attest - this apartment was beyond just "dirty."

I also think it is disingenuous for people to criticize Lizzy for choosing an apartment without knowing someone who had stayed there and could vouch for it. Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing for each other here on Fodors? I only know a couple of people personally who have rented apartments in Paris and the apartments they rented wouldn't work for our family. Without a personal recommendation from a friend, how else am I supposed to research apartments to rent? This is why apartment reviews - both good and bad - should be encouraged on this forum.

One more thought . . .

We don't know whether Lizzy and friends cleaned the apartment to make it acceptable to live in for a week. Maybe they did - I don't know. The point is, they shouldn't have to! I don't pay good money to go on vacation to stay in a filthy environment that I have to clean (I can do that in my own house!)

Even if they did clean it up and "made the best of it" it does not excuse the lack of response from the rental agency.

An added comment:
what about the hundreds of positive reviews here? Are we to take those by a poster's recommendation? Maybe they are shilling for that hotel or B&B. Mostly here, we have great
sugestions from our posters who we know stay at the acceptable or great places.

I too am curious to know what the O.P. would consider appropriate compensation, given she turned down the manager's offer.

Lizzy, did you make a counter offer?

Also, I noticed the company is based in the U.S.
Vacation In Paris, LLC
10 Wildwood Trail
Newton, NJ 07860
USA

Are you sure this rental was technically legal, i.e. that the apartment was correctly registered by its actual owners as a commercial property?

This is important as many vacation rental agencies are known to act as agents for private apartments that are not legally allowed to be let for less than one-year terms unless they are properly registered as such.

Consequences for unsuspecting renters include no valid insurance and no legal recourse in case of dispute.

I mention this FYI as it has been the topic of considerable discussion in recent months.

Have a look at this:

http://parishousingscamwatch.wordpre...ords-in-paris/

or

http://www.bonapartparisnews.com/200...-rental-o.html

OK -- some of you have only read THIS thread. I have absolutely no problem w/ Lizzy's post. NONE! I was <u>the very first person to post/compliment Lizzy</u> the first time around, and agree that she was going about things the right way. Several posters agreed w/me after my initial post. So maybe you need all the facts before you start slamming folks or saying "<i>Some just like to pick on posters.</i>" or "<i>For those of you who are criticizing Lizzy for posting her complaints . . . </i>"

If you had been around for that first thread, you would know it went on and on and on w/no new info - just rehashing and arguing about VIP and their business practices. It was eventually deleted by Fodors.

Just like in the lounge - normally when someone starts a thread about a deleted thread -- the new one gets deleted too. THAT is why I posted that I don't think it was a good idea for Lizzy to re-post and re-hash the whole thing again.

janis, I agree with you. I read the first thread though didn't post to it because after a while it seemed to degenerate into something kind of weird. But I saw this and couldn't resist. I want in on this action! :D

cigale, I personally would not rent an apartment based solely on someone's review here. Even if I don't think that person is a shill (most are not, in my opinion), it doesn't mean they know what I seek/expect/enjoy. I spend far too much time here it is true, but not enough to rent an apartment based only on another poster's recommendation. I take Fodorite reviews into account and add them to the overall equation: reputation of agency, other reviews on slowtrav, correspondence with references supplied by the agency, etc. I may be overly cautious but I have yet to have a bad experience--knocking on wood and crossing my fingers right now!

In Paris I have only rented from guestapartment.com and Paris Best Lodge, both were excellent, one on the pricey side, the other reasonable though not dirt cheap. I've used four different agencies in Rome and haven't been disappointed yet. Not trying to put Lizzy down or congratulate myself, just putting it out there as a research-heavy/risk-minimizing (but not erasing) method for people who might want to rent.

I'm still squarely with Lizzie. That place was a dump. The cracked toilet? OMG!

Yes, we rent apartments and other accommodations. Sometimes we like them more than others, but c'mon people: that place was an out and out trash heap. Opening and shutting a drawer to turn a light off and on isn't just old fashioned wiring; it's stupid and dangerous. Despite it being an ancient city, they have electricians in Paris.

And if I rent an apartment that says it sleeps up to 6, I am not supposing that it only sleeps 5. Silly.

What was the cost of this place, anyway? It seems from the responses that it was impossibly cheap, and it would have to be to justify that cracked toilet.

The only rental that I left immediately was a cabin in the Poconos that had sticky food on the fridge and stove. I went right to the office and demanded they cancel my cc hold. But the difference is that there WAS an office. Lizzie tried to contact VIP and got no response.

WhoaHo! I found this in the apartment description:

The building is contemporary (1970) and classical Parisian architecture.

There's no excuse for the wiring problems, if the above is true. Paris has building codes; really, they do.

<i><font color=#777777>"I guess that line will get me kicked off again."</font></i>

Well, in case you do, I did enjoy your post. There are some terrific agencies who did get into the business because they, too, loved the adventure. I adore Ann-Marie Doyle at venice-rentals.com.

It's too bad that Fodor's won't let businesses respond to customers here. It might be different if they weren't in the publishing business. I'm a member on a few independent photography sites where photographers like to comment about the service they receive from two competing photo supply stores in NYC. Both retail outlets have service representatives assigned to each forum and their job is to address any customer complaint. They often post a toll-free number if some issue can't get rectified on the internet. It sure makes for great customer relations and satisfaction. I doubt Fodor's is legally permitted to act as such a conduit.

Leely, I actually make my decisions about apartments in the opposite way from you. If there is a positive review here on Fodor's that gives me lots of information about an apartment and especially if it is written by somebody whose opinion I have come to trust, that is enough for me.

I am able to ask questions of posters here and find out whatever I want to know about the apartment, and I find this much more reassuring than the communications of any agency.

My best rental experiences have come from just this process.

Nikki, that's not the opposite of my method--it's just what you describe is only <i>part</i> of the process for me. While I "trust," for example, your opinions and those of Anselm, Apres and MlleFifi, to name a few, I am guessing that though some of our concerns intersect, not all do. For example, I live in a corner apartment with lots of streetlights around and many, many bay windows in a very loud, busy part of my not-small city--on a bus line. So on vacation I like dark, quiet places where I can sleep like the dead. I'm pretty sure most people aren't seeking dark-and-cavelike in a Paris rental.

I communicate not so much with the agency but with references provided by the agency, including on two occasions people who turned out to be Fodor's/slowtrav posters. We got into detailed exchanges of the type I wouldn't here.

We should all do what makes us most comfortable. I prefer several sources, especially when I'm choosing a place for a group. I'm definitely more devil-may-care when it's just me or just me and my boyfriend or a friend.

'Night!

"If you had been around for that first thread, you would know it went on and on and on w/no new info - just rehashing and arguing about VIP and their business practices."

I WAS there for the first thread and I DID read your posts (and all the others), but I do NOT agree with your latest assessment (conveniently for you, the thread was deleted). Your impression of the thread and mine are not the same; nor is your opinion the same thing as indisputable fact.

Although this apartment is described as extremely cheap, I don't really see this as accurate. The price is $275 USD/night. I think this is enough to take it out of the "expect it to be a slum" category. If I am expected to clean, upon arrival, the dirty apartment I've rented for $275 USD/night, then I'd expect to be paid for it.