historytraveler

Hailes just another ruin? St. John's in Burford not worth a look and Minster Lovell not much of a village? These women are seriously lacking in imagination and curiosty as well as any map reading genes.

I've visited Hailes on several occasions and love both the ruins and the church. Minster Lovell is one of my favorite spots in England. I took a small (about 12) tour group there years ago, and we stayed at the White Swan Inn ( if I remember the name correctly) and had our evening meal in the restaurant after spending some time visiting the Hall, church and dovecote. It was magical. I've returned since then and hope to get back again. One should really walk from the pub through the village to the church, Hall and grounds. A special place IMHO.

Your itinerary reflects considerable planning,and you included the best possible stops for a those on their first visit. You did an excellent job. Too bad it wasn't embraced with more enthusiasm,resposibility and grace.

But what the heck. We on the forum are grateful for your expertise and your trip report.

annhig

hi janisj,

confession time - I've driven through the cotswolds numerous times along the Foss way [my preferred non-motorway route between cornwall and nottingham where DD is at uni] and I've NEVER been to Hailes or Minster lovell.

so thank you for bringing them to my attention.

your travel companions didn't deserve you.

regards, ann

Feldie

I'm sorry I asked if you were thanked and hit a nerve. Add me to the list of folks who would show appreciation by participating, paying, doing. I'm a wicked navigator and relish the challenge - used to stay up in my bed reading maps as a kid.

I'm waiting for you to finish your Cotswold trip - I'm already mapping out a copy-cat day and will ask more questions on my thread. Funny, I kept hitting 'refresh' on this thread during the game last night, now I know why you didn't post! Might as well ask here - exactly what road atlas
did you use? I'm very picky about those and want to ensure there is sufficient detail, so I don't order them sight unseen over the net unless I have a solid recommendation.

flanneruk

Annhig:

Of all the possible detours off the A429, I really wouldn't put Minster Lovell in the top 100.

As a place for the flannerpoch to let off steam after a hard afternoon waiting outside the Witney Waitrose. Minster Lovell Hall ruins are terrific. Pretty good as the centre for a pleasant early-morning eight-mile meander round the Windrush Valley. But to detour more than a mile off a route for? Naah.

Charterville Allottments, a mile or two towardss the A40, are historically interesting. Or turn off the A40 a couple of miles west of Minster Lovell to Swinbrook, then follow the circular walk, more or less paralleling the river, towards Burford - IMHO, probably the nicest and most interesting easy-access walk in the entire Cotswolds AONB. Especially if you don't share janisj's chums weird prejudice against looking at churches (Swinbrook has to be in anyone's top ten list of outstanding, undervisited, English churches. Boozer next door - owned by Debo Cavendish, or Mitford as was - is pretty impressive too, if you can find room to park.)

janisj

(Halfway through posting this entry the d**n thing went away so I'm trying to recreate it. I compose on Fodors - not in word, so when it goes away - it literally vanishes )

Feldie: It really doesn't make that much difference which map atlas you get - the main thing is you want a good scale. About 4 miles to the inch or thereabouts. I've had everything from expensive Michelins w/ ring binding to really cheap AA - and as long as the scale is large enough you get the detail you need. My fav is a 3 miles to the inch - but that is probably overkill for a single holiday.

Wed. -- Waddesdon Manor, Broadway, Chipping Campden

I chose Wed to visit Waddesdon because the Bachelor's Wing is open then. Walking up from the car park and rounding the corner by the fountain to get your first view - you'd think you've been transported to the Loire Valley. The house was built in the late 19th century by baron Ferdinand Rothschild as a pretty much exact replica of a French chateau. It is an amazing place - Beautiful house, furniture/paintings the equal of any stately home, fascinating family history, lovely gardens/grounds. Plus it has a wine cellar/tasting room connected to the Rothschild vineyards in France.

We again had a confab over the road atlases to plot out the route. I knew it would be a long slow drive because it goes cross country partly on some minor roads. The plan is to get to Waddesdon, sign up for timed tickets for the house and then have breakfast/coffee/brunch/whatever in the restaurant. We pulled out about 9:00 and it took us nearly 2 hours to get there. It is approx 50 miles and I managed to keep SCQ's car in my rearview mirror all the way. A few places I managed to ease her up to 40+ MPH, but most of the way we were doing 30-35. I could have done the drive in 1/2 the time w/ my eyes closed since at one point, the route passes w/i about 2 miles of the village where I lived for nearly 5 years.

We got tix (covered by the GBHP) for noon and then were seated at 11:00. The restaurant was booked for a private function at Noon so the timing was perfect. I had eggs benedict and a sort of mimosa. Others had everything from just a cup of coffee to full breakfast. Of course - we requested separate checks, and honestly - it took longer to get the bill divided than it did to order/eat our meals . . .

It was time to enter the house - a young woman announced she would be leading a short, specialized tour limited to 15 people that would explain the housekeeping/conservation techniques they use when they "put Waddesdon to bed" in the off season. After visiting Waddesdon several times over the years, this would be something new so I signed up. After the noon ticket holders started their way through the house she took the handful of us into the morning room and closed the doors. It was really interesting and she did an excellent job explaining what it takes to conserve the contents of a stately home. Nearly every piece of porcelain/glass/statuary (hundreds and hundreds of items) has its own custom fitted storage box; There are 8 different types of brushes from boar's hair to sable to dust every sort of artwork; It takes two staff two days to clean each chandelier; They erect platforms in each room and two staff dust everything 6 feet and above while other staff dust everything below 6 feet.

After about 30 minutes I started my way through the house (I generally prefer places like Waddesdon where you can go at your own pace and not be on a guided tour.) I eventually caught up w/ the ORD ladies who were taking their time exploring and seemed to be interested in everything. When we got to the Sevres rooms - that is when I think it really hit them how amazing the contents of this house is . . . We didn't see the others until later on outside the house.

After the Bachelors' Wing - it was out into the gardens. At first I was disappointed to see the beds around the fountains on the rear terraces were pretty much bare. They are usually a riot of color. But as sometimes happens, we were there at "changeover" time. All the spring color had just been ripped out and they were starting to plant the summer display. But it was actually really interesting - there were 15 mostly elderly National Trust volunteers (and two paid staff) who had signed up for a week's stint and they were planting hundreds of 4 inch pots and other bedding plants.

One of the ORD ladies and I spent quite a while talking to some of the NT members about the work and about where they were from/etc. One gentleman who must have been 90 years old took a shine to Marty. One of the volunteers asked us where we live. When he heard she was from near Chicago he said she MUST go talk to Dennis - he goes out to Chigago all the time. So we wandered over to talk to him and what followed would have done Monty Python proud In the space of 30 mins he went on a sort of stream of consciousness that covered things like - His Illinois girlfriend who recently died, being a scientist working in the early days of microwave research and using the microwaves to warm their private parts (not kidding!), to that being the reason he only had daughters, to experimental medical research, to top secret WWII work, to, to, to It was a kick - we just stood back and let him roll

http://www.waddesdon.org.uk/

I haven't finished Wed yet - but doing it twice is a bit frustrating. Going to shut 'er down for the night. And I thought I'd be able to wrap up Wed-Fri this evening . .

Later

SandyBrit

janisj:

I just wanted to reaffirm how much I appreciate your details with links to where you are visiting.

Like poster Feldie there will be a lot of "copy cat" days lifted from your trip report.

Thank you and carry on please.

Sandy

thursdaysd

Sounds like a great tour of Waddesdon. Haen't been - I'll have to put it on the list.

"My fav is a 3 miles to the inch - but that is probably overkill for a single holiday." I navigated for my extremely demanding father off even more detailed maps (I think Bartholomew, but if so they don't make them any more). Certainly overkill, unless you're navigating for someone who wants to know that in a mile there will be a crossroads with a pub on the north-east corner, even though he has right-of-way and will be going straight!

janisj

Just a short one to tie up Wed's loose ends.

Apparently sometime during the day SCQ started feeling ill - but various OTC things some were carrying seemed to fix her up. But because of that the other car decided to leave not long after touring the house - maybe around 2:30 to make their way back to Lower Quinton. I think they got in around 5PM so not quite sure what route they took, but it was a long one.

The three of us spent more time in the grounds/Aviaries/gift shop and left around 3:30. We had a few options where to go/what to do next -- They asked if Broadway was possible - they had only driven through and couple of the others who had stopped there after the Bourton/Burford day had talked about some nice shops. I said it would be a close thing since most shops will close around 5:00 - but w/o the drag of having to lead the other car I could give it a shot.

Marty had asked me to stop if ever there was a chance where there was a good view of bright yellow rape fields. These fields are ALL over, but finding the right place to stop isn't always easy. Well - nothing suitable until I saw a layby above the mill in Chipping Norton. This was still a working textile mill when I lived in the area and has always been a sort of iconic bldg. There is a good photo of it on this link. http://www.oxtowns.co.uk/chipping_norton/

Off in the distance was a very large and VERY yellow rapeseed field so they got some terrific photos of the hills/yellow fields/Victorian factory.

We pulled into Broadway just before 5PM and some places were closing up while some others would close by 6PM so we had enough time for a quick look see and a little shopping. Found the most wonderful throw pillow w/ the image of a fox on it. I pack REALLY light so there was no way I could get the pillow in my little rollaboard - so had the shop remove the pillow form and I just took the cover.

We had considered eating in Broadway - but I suggested we try the Lygon Arms in Chipping Campden w/ its connection to our cottage. We arrived in Chipping Campden about 6:45 and ate in the hotels dining room - could have had the same meals in the pub. I had roasted asparagus and a roast pork w/ stuffing, one of the others had fish & chips - not sure about the 3rd . . . The meal was surprisingly good. The staff was a bit confused/inefficient - apparently someone had not shown up for work so they were trying to cover both the dining room and the pub across the entrance alleyway. But it wasn't too bad and they were very friendly. The pub was pretty full but there was only one other party in the dining room (which considering the mix-ups was probably a good thing). Also we were eating fairly early.

http://www.lygonarms.co.uk/

We got back to the cottage about 8:30 and there was a note that the others were up at the pub and we could join them. We all looked at each other and -- "nah!"

They came home about 15 minutes later and - I kid you not - the greeting was "Hi, we had a nice dinner -- and GUESS WHAT? They gave us separate checks!" w/ a "ta da" expression on her face.

That night SCQ objected to the noise I made coming to bed (the ironic thing is I took exceeding care to be quiet and even got undressed in the dark so I wouldn't wake her). But it is a 300 year old house, the floors DO creak, and the wooden cupboards and bureaus make noise. Simply can't be avoided. Plus there is an exhaust fan in the bathroom that runs for 10 minutes after light is turned off. She said she'd REALLY appreciate it if I kept it down and didn't wake her up again.

OMG! I ended up sleeping downstairs on the couch. The next morning I told her that we have to share the house and it will make noise -and she pulled one of her passive aggressive stunts - "Oh, it is our last day here don't upset everyone. I'd just hope you could be considerate enough to not wake me." I think that may have been the final nail in our friendship - or at least "friendly" friendship. She was superficially friendly the one time I've seen her since they got back from their tour.

Thinking about it - I think much of the conflict was because she is usually pretty forceful and tends to "hold court" and be in charge. Whether it is steering the discussions at the book club, or when socializing or whatever. People simply tend to defer to her - or just get worn out. But on this trip she was never on firm footing - she wasn't the "expert" about anything or anyplace and was always trying to find ways to be in charge - from not calling when the car broke down, or deciding what things the folks in her car would see. It was her way of being in control. How's that for some pop psychology???

Anyway - all I know is I ended up spending my last two nights in the country, sleeping on the sofa -- thank goodness not the one shown on the cottage's website. It had been replaced by a big overstuffed sectional.

Next: Our last day in the Country - Warwick Castle

flanneruk

Atlases:

Unless you're driving here from mainland Europe, I can't even begin to see the point of buying an atlas in a foreign country - especially if, as seems to be the case for poor Feldie, there isn't a proper bookshop near your home. Though the thought beggars belief: are there really such towns in the developed world?

If you're stuck in some such isolated village, then plot your general route on Google Maps, and buy the most suitable £2.99 special at the first petrol station you hit after collecting your car.

ALL British road atlases are somewhere between 1:150,000 and 1:250,000 (3 to 4 and a bit miles per inch) As far as the Cotswolds are concerned, it doesn't much matter which. More or less all drivable roads are shown on all atlases (the only real exception is housing estates), and the only significant criterion is which you're most comfortable reading and using.

Which is why it never makes sense - even if you do live in the back of beyond - to buy an atlas you're going to use for navigation off the web.

Feldie

Janis I fogot to ask, you had mentioned a kitchen store. Details please, where is it, and do you have any suggestions for kitchen toys!

(Flanner - all sorts of reasons I like to buy maps - mementos, scrapbbooking, loaning to friends, showing people where we went, feeling comfortable deviating from the planned route, detour control, or if locals have suggestions they can scribble on the map. I like to look at hard paper while DH will go off our SatNav. I like and collect locally produced maps, they help me get to know a place, and usually my local stores don't carry exactly what I want/need. What can I say, Sorry to take up bandwidth on this!)

flanneruk

You're not taking up bandwidth. And you don't need to explain why hard-copy maps matter.

I just don't understand why you need to buy an atlas of Britain in a foreign (ie North American or Australasian) country.

Even in Britain (where even the smallest towns have proper bookshops with foreign maps), foreign atlases are expensive. In developed countries (it's a bit differerent iun countries with really low literacy) the best choice and value for maps is always in the country the maps refer to.

Though I'm lucky enough to live close to the world's finest map shops, I can't imagine buying an Australian, German or American road atlas here. Almost all our atlas collection has been bought in the country concerned. Usually for less than $5.

historytraveler

janisj,

I think your "pop psychology" is spot on.

yk

After all that you've endured and you ended up sleeping on a sofa. There is no justice!!!

bluzmama

So I guess that answers my question-you and your friends got no apologies from the queen. And as for the friendship while sad, it doesn't sound like much of a loss. I still hope the other ladies refuse to fork over more cash since she pretty much ran the show, decided what they'd see and when.

bluzmama

Thanks for the great trip report.

irishface

SCQ is a Queen B and witch! What a piece of work! By the time she asked you to be quiet in the bedroom, if it had been I, I would have planning some sort of revenge--or at least imagining what I could do.

You are a great lady, Janis!

janisj

Just a quick note for Feldie right now -- I'm definitely going to try to wrap this up tonight. Mostly Warwick, getting the others to LHR, and the Chelsea Flower show . . .

Feldie: flanner is giving you good advice - don't buy a road atlas until you are in the UK. At home you'll probably pay $15-$20 more than you will for the very same edition in England.

I bought our matching atlases in a London book shop (and over paid) simply because I wanted to have identical copies for both cars w/o having to stop to buy them enroute. If I'd been able to by them in a garage after collecting the car, I could have had the very good AA version for £2.99.

janisj

After dinner several of the girls wanted to do their last laundry - and that's when I noticed something. On the widow sill were a small bottle of Non-bio (laundry detergent) and a very large bottle of what was obviously (or at least obvious to me) fabric softener. For some reason, I noticed the huge bottle of fabric softener was almost empty (but had been more than 1/2 full when Sandra had showed me around the place back on Friday afternoon). Come to find out - somewhere along the line one of the ladies had decided the big bottle was detergent . . . . And ever since, they had ALL be washing their clothes in 100% fabric softener and w/o any detergent

Oh well - they had some rereally REALLY soft clothing . . . .

We had a powwow - what to do on Thursday. Because of the car fiasco we had lost one full day so something had to give. Would we lose Oxford/Blenheim Palace (the palace had been closed when we went there the first day and we thought we'd go back later and combine it w/ seeing Oxford) -- Or Stratford/Warwick? They all decided that since Stratford/Warwick was closer, it made the most sense to go there.

The plan is to hit warwick Castle first thing - at opening time. Then have lunch in the town and explore a bit. Then over to Stratford for a coupe of hours before heading home to have dinner and pack. We pulled out the atlases and once again highlighted the routes for SCQ and her navigator. It should be pretty easy for them since it is about 14 miles straight shot up to Warwick and then less than 6 miles from Stratford back to Lower Quinton and they would be following me.

Warwick, Stratford-upon-Avon, dinner in the pub and our last night in the country

So next morning we pile in the cars at 9:30-ish and pull out of the off-street parking. Only thing -- when I pul out and turned left - SCQ pulls out and turns RIGHT?? Okaaay - I guess she decided there was a better way to get to Warwick. What she probably didn't know was, that by taking the B4632 (the direction she went) they'd have to go through central Stratford which is pretty congested and navigate many roundabouts and cross the river in the town centre to get on the road to Warwick.

I'd chosen the slightly longer route straight up the A429 - open countryside, easy drive, lots fewer roundabouts and you enter Warwick near the castle's car park. There were reasons that was the way to go - It wasn't just a coin flip.

We arrived at the castle just before 10:00 and had a few minutes in the gift shop before the castle opened. (GBHP covered) After getting inside the castle proper and heading to the state rooms, Marty realized she didn't have her camera - it must have fallen out in the car, so she started back to look for it. By this time it is about 10:30 and as she starts back to meet up w/ us - up drives the other car. Seems they got turned around in Stratford and went half way to Alcester before turning around and finally getting to Warwick. (I am actually starting to enjoy all the little disasters befalling the other car - which is just sick But it is almost getting to be like a junior high competition!)

I've been to Warwick many times -- in the pre-madame Tussaud's/family owned days, post mme Tussaud buying the place, and now when they are starting to maybe over-do things. It is still a terrific place to visit and there is a LOT to see/do w/o stepping inside the new "Dungeon" attraction. In fact the original real dungeon is still there w/o any hype at all. The State rooms are gorgeous, the great hall is just as magnificent as ever, and the family apartments w/ the wax figures is wonderful. And the gardens are beautiful w/ conservatory, topiaries, roses, and peacocks EVERYWHERE - but IMO they are finally edging over into too touristy. Don't get me wrong - still 100% worth visiting - just it is probably better to skip some of the more "faked" attractions.

One thing they have added which is good is the falconry displays/demos. They were flying eagles, falcons and a huge sea eagle.

We stopped for coffee in the undercroft - and there was this poor harried grandpa w/ his adorable maybe 20 month old grandson. Grandma, Mom, and the older kids were out exploring the dungeons and things and Grand dad was given the task of feeding the baby. he had some food he needed to heat in the microwave in another room but he also had keep tabs on junior. So he asked us if we could watch over the baby while he went about putting his lunch together. I guess 3 ladies of a certain age looked like harmless baby minders. He was really cute and wanted to come sit w/ us. he was talking away but we didn't understand a word of it . . .

http://hearteng.110mb.com/warwick.htm (I'm linking this site because it has much better photos and less schlock than the "official" site)

After finishing in the castle the three of us walked through the city wall and explored a bit - went into a couple of antique shops and of course into St Mary's church. I sort of had to cajole the ORD ladies into entering the church but I was determined they'd at least see the Beauchamp Chapel if nothing else. Once again - they loved the place.

http://www.stmaryswarwick.org.uk/ind..._architecture/

then we went to a wine bar restaurant just across from the church and had a wonderful late-ish lunch. One of the girls was just about out of money and since it was the last full day we decided she would charge our lunches and we'd give her cash so she wouldn't have to hit another ATM . . . And for the first time ever in my experience, a US-issued credit card would not work. You have all probably heard about chip & pin credit cards in the UK. And we always tell posters - "oh don't worry, they can run your card and you sign the slip just like back home." Well - not so much. The waiter brought the card reader to the table -- and it did not have any way to run a non-chip and pin card. he said it was brand new and this was the first time they'd tried to use it w/ a non-chip cc. They are going to talk to their bank and cc reps and find out if they have any other options . . .

Soooo I paid for her lunch and she ended up hitting a money machine down the block.

We discussed whether to go to Stratford - and decided to skip it and head home. One wanted to take a long walk and was interested in Meon Hill and maybe walking all the way to Hidcote. The other was foot sore and just wanted to relax before facing the packing.

The other car did go to Stratford and saw the birthplace and Hall's Croft (Will's daughter's house) - but none of the other shakespeare properties or Holy Trinity/his burial place.

That evening four of us - the ORD ladies, the sister and me - went to the College Arms (w/o separate checks BTW) for our final dinner. I had had convinced them to try cider but not Pimm's. But this last evening they decided to give it a try -- Okaaay ! another favorite new beverage They each had two.

We stayed at the pub for a couple of hours eating , drinking and talking about what their favorite things were. Rules, the Ritz, Hampton Court, the cottage, Lower Slaughter, coffee at starbucks every morning in the marina w/ Tower Bridge over one shoulder and all the boats, the Keys ceremony, Hidcote manor -- I guess they were paying attentions after all.

They were playing some sort of game out on the lawn. I've been around a lot of pubs and seen a lot of weird bar games but never this one where they tossed sort of spindles at a target and baskets. They asked us to make a few tosses - I guess it must have been harder than it looked! I didn't even manage to hit the backdrop, let alone the target . . . I blamed it on the Pimm's . . . .

Then back home to pack and plan tomorrow's drives . . . . .

Next: The ORD ladies back to LHR, others to Scotland and Ireland - and the Chelsea Flower Show