katherinee

Hi, just trying to plan the France, Spain and Italy part of our trip (two mid-twenties females), and are after any and all help we can get! We will be arriving in Paris from London and then have six weeks to get to somewhere in Italy that we can ferry to Greece from. We have just finished planning the Greece to Netherlands part of our trip (massive job!) so are after any suggestions we can get.

I know that a lot of people will say six weeks isn't long enough to do these countries, but just letting you know that this is a "see a bit of everything so we know where to go back to" trip. Work commitments mean that this is the amount of time we have, and we are well aware that we won't see everything. We are travelling from Australia so just want to see what we can, and then we can dedicate trips back to our favourite countries when time and money permits! (and on that, we are travelling for just over three months so any money saving tips would be much appreciated!!).

Thanks in advance!

jamikins

Can you give us the full schedule that you have planned broken down by day so that we can see what you are working with? That will help!

cathies

You can have a taste of these countries in 6 weeks, but we do need a bit more detail about what your interests are.

katherinee

This is a very rough starting point but it's what we're planning on at the moment.

Days 1-3: Paris
4: Reims/Epernay
5: Versailles
6: Chenounceau
7-8: Bordeaux
9: Lourdes
10: Pamplona
11: Bilbao
12-14: Madrid
15: Cordoba
16: Seville
17-18: Granada
19: Ibiza
20-21: Barcelona
22: Carcassonne
23: Avignon
24: Lyon
25-26: Nice
27: Milan
28-29: Venice
30-31: Florence
32-34: Rome
35-36: Sorrento
Ferry from Brindisi to Corfu

We actually have closer to 40-42 days so have a few days to play around with.

cathies

Hi Katherine, you actually have given yourself less days than you think. Keep in mind that EVERY change will take a minimum of 1/2 a day - a rough calculation here will mean that you will lose approx 10 days taken up with moving from one city to another. If you think about it, by the time you check out of your lodgings, make your way to the train station, wait for the train, have your train trip, make your way to the next lodging, check in, dump luggage etc and there is 1/2 a day gone.

I am also Australian and I know it's tempting to squeeze in as much as possible because it a long way to go etc, but I think you will really regret this travel plan. You need to dump at least 1/2 of these destinations; slow the whole thing down and at least see the places you do go to in a little more detail. I know that you just want an overview on this trip, but please listen to what you will be told here on Fodor's that this is a REALLY bad plan. Apart from mostly just seeing the inside of train carriages, you will be exhausted. I'm glad you said that it's a rough plan as I'm assuming nothing is booked and you can make some changes based on the really good advice you will be given, if you choose to listen.

As an example - Rome - Sorrento will take at least 3 hours and then Sorrento itself is worthy of a day, plus a day to go one of the other Amalfi Coast destinations and most of a day to go to Pompeii.

So my suggestion is to sit back and wait for others to make some suggestions for a better plan. Don't be upset if other posters tell you it's insane, just take the advice on board and rewrite your plan.

katherinee

Thanks! This is exactly what I'm after!! We haven't booked anything and are actually in the very very early stages of planning. We've just spent the last couple of months planning the other two months of our travel and this mmonth of planning is doing our heads in so we're after every bit of information we can get.

France is currently proving the most difficult part of the trip. Other than Paris and a bit of the south, I'm not really fussed on much else there (from my reading, but am open to suggestions... not sure if I'm just over reading travel guides etc because that's all I've been doing for months and months!).

Our main interests are seeing some beautiful scenery and experiencing bits of different cultures.

We also haven't worked out the best way to travel between these destinations. Is the train the best? Or what about hiring a car?

Thanks in advance!!

katherinee

Also, we are expecting this part of the trip to be very exhausting. And we've planned a nice relaxing time in Greece to recooperate when we get there.

cathies

Well, in the south of France you do really need a car, other posters will be able to help you with that.

Regarding Paris, you could easily, easily add more time to Paris and relax and enjoy it more fully. Versailles is an easy day trip from Paris, so unless you have a really good reason to stay there overnight, just add a day to Paris. Reims/Epernay would be the same I think. Saves dragging luggage onto the train etc and you can be back in Paris for dinner.

Unless your fellow traveller really wants to see the south of France, then why not skip that for this trip and go straight to Spain and see that without rushing so much.

I haven't done this myself so it's a stab in the dark, but let's assume you spend a few more days in Spain, maybe you could then fly from Barcelona to Milan and start the Italy part of the trip there. Hopefully somebody else will contribute and advise if this is a good/bad suggestion.

cathies

Oops, sorry I forgot to ask if you have been reading trip reports here on Fodor's. I think they are much better than guide books. Just look for posts with a little orange book beside them. There's quite a few here at the moment that might help. Just look at the list to the left of our conversation.

adrienne

I understand you want to see a lot of towns but I don't think you've given any thought to how much time it will take you to get from one town to the next plus time to get to and from train stations plus packing and unpacking. With this itinerary you will see almost nothing but train stations.

Since you're going to large towns and cities served by trains I would suggest using trains rather than renting a car.

I'd advise removing Bordeaux and Lourdes. Unless you have a strong religious reason for going to Lourdes you will be quite disappointed with the tacky souvenir stands lining the streets. Lourdes to Pamplona is 6 to 7 hours; Pamplona to Bilbao is 3.5 to 4.5 hours.

I would also skip Chenonceau since you're seeing Versailles.

Suggested itinerary:
Paris (5 days including Versailles and Reims)
Lyon
Nice
Carcassonne
Avignon
Spain
Fly from Madrid to Milan

jamikins

I completely agree with the above. Try to limit or remove 1 night stays, give yourself at least 2 nights, 3 is better, in each location. More if you want to do day trips.

I would also drop Bordeaux, Lourdes.

You could do:
Paris - at least 5 days with the two day trips
Dijon (to get the wine region) - 2-3 nights
Avignon (provence) - 2-3 nights to get a taste
Nice (coast) - 2-3 nights
Fly to Spain
Someone else can help you with the Spain part
Fly Spain to Italy

For Italy I would fly into Venice from Spain and stay there 2-3 nights
Train to FLorence for 2-3 nights
train to Rome for 5 nights
Fly to Greece

I would give Sorrento a miss this time round because I think you need more time to do it justice, but others may have additional thoughts.

I believe you could rely on trains for this itinerary if you dont want to rent a car.

Best of luck!

sheila

I hate you missing the Pyrenees, but....

kimhe

Based on more than twenty years extensive travel in Spain, I would suggest you spend some days in both San Sebastián and Sevilla. Both are fabulous and very different. Sevilla is pure magic and San Sebastián must be one of the very best cities on earth.

I would drop Pamplona if it's not for the Sanfermines. If you go for San Fermín, you should stay for more days and you are in a hurry to book accomodation. If staying so few days in each place, I would have done Córdoba as a day trip from Sevilla.

The article "A different kind of Spain" gives you an idea of San Sebastián and the region. http://marshlands.blogstream.com/

"There is dining that features more Michelin starred restaurants per mile than Paris, New York, or Vienna. There is a culture that brought Woody Allen to the city’s Film Festival last year, brings Herbie Hancock and Bob Dylan to this summer’s Jazz Fest, and embraces Gehry’s Guggenheim Museum just down the coast in Bilbao. There is the zest for life that drew Ernest Hemingway to nearby Pamplona and was immortalized in The Sun Also Rises.

San Sebastian’s setting on the coast is a panorama reminiscent of Rio de Janeiro - a horseshoe bay of blue water whose entrance is guarded by Mount Igueldo, a wide sandy beach circling the bay, green mountains extending all the way to the water, and a statue of Christ on Mount Urgull overlooking it all. At the back of the bay lies the city, clad largely in white, perched on the beach and the slopes heading up into the mountains".

I would have lots of tips in Sevilla, but this site gives great information: http://www.exploreseville.com/

With your pace, perhaps wind down in the Arab bath-house Aire de Sevilla? http://www.airedesevilla.com/

One of the best money-saving tips would be to do as the Spanish and have your main meal at lunch-time, from about 1.30 pm. Many restaurants will then serve a great value three course Menu del Día with plenty to choose from for some 8-12€, drinks included. For example, in Madrid you could prepare yourself for the south in Casa Granada.
http://www.tripfilms.com/Travel_Vide...ada-Video.html

katherinee

Thanks all! This is the new, very revised plan.

Days 1-6: Paris
7-9: Bilbao/San Sebastian
10-14: Madrid
15-16: Seville
17-20: Barcelona
21-24: Venice
25-27: Florence
28-31: Rome
32-33: Sorrento
Then to Corfu and onto Greece.

Going off this we would have four days to add in somewhere (we extended the time we've got in London pre-trip so that's where the other days went).

We were thinking we would fly from Paris to Bilbao, Seville to Barcelona, and Barcelona to Venice. Other than that we were thinking of train/bus.

I know we still have a heap to work out but after some more reading and research we think this is a better start. Any more thoughts?

bobthenavigator

I like it !
I wish I was 20 something and had this trip on my plate.

CathyM

2 nights in Sevilla is way too short. You need to factor in 1/2 day for travel and getting to the the hotel & check in. This leaves only 1.5 days - really half what you need. I'd budget 4 nights in Sevilla with a daytrip to Cordoba (which can be done as a stop between Madrid & Sevilla).

zeppole

katherinee,

You earlier described your interests in coming to Europe as "seeing beautiful scenery and experiencing bits of different cultures.

Your itinerary in Italy is not only expensive, it pretty much guarantees that all you will experience of Italy is tourist-dominated (and just a smattering of beautiful scenery!)

In planning a massive trip like the one you are undertaking, I can really understand that guidebooks and most advice is going to present the most famous tourist destiantions as the logical choices. And a lot of people will fight against the idea that you should try to spend some time off the beaten track in Italy -- or tell you that you can day trip by bus or train to small towns in Italy -- but honestly, the only ones I ever hear suggested are just as touristy (San Gimignano, Positano).

Obviously Venice, Florence, Rome and Sorrento are not unrewarding places to go to. But you might find it much more engaging to experience that side of Italian culture that is dominated by Italians rather than tourists -- and amazingly, these places are rich in beautiful architecture, art and scenery. They are not "poor cousins" to the famous tourist spots, just like going to San Sebastian -- although it is less famous than Sevilla -- is often the highlight of many people's trip to Spain.

You should also know that there is an overnight ferry from Barcelona to Genoa, Italy (also there ferries to Livorn and Rome's port of Civitavecchia), so you might consider that.

Some Italian destinations that are well connected by train and would fit into your overall European itinerary but would afford you a very different understanding of Italian life, while giving you access beautiful sights, are Perugia, Torino, Arezzo, Orvieto, Salerno (or Vietri Sul Mare), Bologna (or Parma or Ravenna), Mantova, Trieste -- and then many much smaller towns of great charm and Italian tradition (Treviso, Padova, Pistoia, Camogli, Ascoil Piceno, Vietri Sul Mare) which could substitute for some of the bigger tourist pit stops of Italy.

Fortunately Rome is so capacious that tourists only dominate the town in certain quarters. But sometime during your 15 days in Italy, you should try staying in a town that doesn't change its population every three days because that's how long the typical foreign tourist stays, and the only locals left are the ones changing the sheets.

zeppole

PS: katherinee

It occurs to me to add that since you said you want beautiful scenery, you could have a spectacular tour of Italy if you left Barcelona by ferry for Genova, and then headed up by train to Trento and the gateway of the Dolomiti. There are few sights in Europe -- or on the planet -- comparable to the jaw dropping beauty of the Dolomiti. I suggest you spend at least 4 days up there. There is a regional bus system you can use to see much of the best of it, plus doing some hikes.

(There is a poster here named Steve James who knows all the public transportation trips, or ask for help on Tripadvisor message boards).

From the Dolomiti, you can take a bus to Venice in 4 hours. After Venice, I highly recommend you base in Bologna instead of Florence, to enjoy Europe's oldest university city, with delicious cheap eats, plus daytrips to Parma and Ravenna, as well as Florence. From Bologna, head to Rome -- but skip Sorrento since you will have so much beautiful beach scenery in Greece.

To me, the Dolomiti + Venice + Bologna/Parma/Ravenna/Florence + Rome sounds like a much more memorable, varied, cheaper and yet delicious Italian trip than Venice/Florence/Rome/Sorrento.