Fodor's Travel Talk Forums - 6 countries in 18 days, too much?

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6 countries in 18 days, too much?

Hi, well, I, and two other family members are going to Europe on May 31. We are flying from Denver to Munich, arriving in Munich at 4:30 on June 1st. We are goig to stay the night in munich, and then drive to salzburg, stay 2 nights, then drive back through germany down into Innsbruck and stay a night. Then we plan to drive through liechtenstein to switzerland where a friend has an apartment on lake constance, and spend a couple days there, and drive up to Baden Baden maybe, too. Then back through Switzerland, to Beaune, France, where we are spending one night, and then to Paris the next day for 2 nights. After that we are driving to England and staying in Canterbury for 3 nights before leaving the airport at Gatwick for our homebound flight to Denver. This is our first trip to Europe. What do you think it will turn out like. Does anyone have any tips on what could make this a successful trip? Any feedback is appreciated tremendously, or e-mail me! Thanks, ~Zack

Hi, try to spend no less than two nights in each place, more if possible. Even if this means day trips to certain places (which is a good idea). if the places you want to stay are not convenient to the places you want to day trip to, decide which place is more important and stay closer to that instead. You need to give yourself more time in Munich. You will see next to nothing in the one night you are giving yourself. PLus, Dachau is very close by (a suburb, essentially) - you should try to see that. I would drop Innsbruck, for starters. One more night in Munich, and in Switzerland - there are more interesting things to see than Baden Baden (unless you have other reasons for going there). What are the attractions in Beaune? Just curious. according to the nights you have listed, I only count at most 13? is there something missing? I would try to dump the car well before Paris (or at Paris) and use public transport at that point. You won't want a car in Paris, and you can train it to England (but if it is still more cost effective to drive, well, then find somewhere to put the car for the time in Paris!) good luck Beth

Dear Zack: Perhaps you've heard of the old movie "If This Is Tuesday It Must Be Belgium"? It sounds as though you're trying to beat the record there. All the places you mention sound lovely and interesting--but do you HAVE to see all of them on your first trip? Remember your enjoyment is bound to be colored by how tired you are--and flying from Denver to Munich guarantees that you will have some jet lag. Why not cut back to the stay at the apartment on Lake Constance; the two nights in Paris; and a few days for London AND Canterbury --you'll never be sorry you spent more time on the good places. Joan

Well, the estra nights you are missing we are spending in Switzerland at our friend's apartment. The attractions in Beaune, it is basically a small vineyard town just about 20 km south of Dijon. It's suppose to be nice, about 20,000 people, and a nice rest. Thankyou for the info On Innsbruck, I will let my other travel companions know that Innsbruck should be left out, we have heard that actually, and this just adds to that face. We can't dump the car in Paris, because we are taking it to Calais, and exchanging it for a car with steering wheel on he right side. I am excited about going, but am worried that I won't have time. Thanks for the great tips, if you have anymore, they would really be appreciated.

Zack, To bluntly respond to your question "What do you think it will turn out like?" I'd be tempted to say it will be hardly memorable. You'll have few treasured memories of what you see, if you can untangle your memories enough to know what it was you saw and where you saw it. Most lasting memory will be packing every other morning or so, unpacking every other night or so. You'll have more lasting memories of the hunt for accommodations and their amenities than any European sights. Have you considered the drive times involved from place to place? Why go from Germany to Austria to Germany? Why go from Austria to Germany to Austria? Why go from Switzerland to Germany to Switzerland? I think you are in desperate need of a good European map, Hallwag or Michelin for example, and some serious rethinking of your itinerary. To accomplish what you suggest is highly impractical in the time allotted, particularly if you've not made arrangements for accommodations. You'll lose a lot of time, particularly in the Munich, Bavaria area looking for accommodations with the influx of tourists attracted by Oberammergau's Passion Play. Driving autobahns and autoroutes is definitely not the way to see Europe. You might just as well stay home and travel Interstate 40 for a couple of weeks.

Just to clear everything up: We do have all our accomodations in order, all hotels, etc. So all we need help with now is everything else. Thanks, ~Zack

I've seen worse. Ran into some folks on the train once who were in the process of "collecting" 18 countries in 16 days. All in all, though, it sounds like the vacation from hell. It'll be memorable, though. One way or another. Ed

Zack I have two thoughts. 1. The plan sounds like the normal American foolishness of thinking there is virtue in seeing Europe superficially. 2. I think your mind was made up before you asked. So why did you bother?? Those of us who have traveled around Europe extensively aren't impressed by some joker who advertises a whirlwind schedule. We think he is missing the point. It is like the old song about "I joined the Navy to see the world. What did I see? I saw the sea."

Zack, all the places you are going to sound good, but the time factor!!!! I agree why ask the question now, when you have hotels settled?? I think you'll need a holiday to get over your holiday. Beth - Beaune has a gorgeous mediaeval building that used to be a hospital. I believe there are several historically important mediaeval buildings in Beaune. One of the women in my office based herself at Beaune during one of her (many) trips to France and raved about it.

Hi, thanks so much for all the replys. By the way, our minds arefar from made up, we can get rid of, or add anything to our trip, (although adding may be tricky! lol) so really, what do you all think we should do? Please Help, thanks!

Zack, I assume you're locked into the Lake Constance and Cambridge stays. My inclination would be to fly into Munich stay there for three days with a day devoted perhaps to a side trip by train to Salzburg or Herrsching and Andechs; train to Lake Constance (Brigenz?, Lindau?)to visit three days with friends. Six of eighteen days are gone. Train to Paris for six days with a day devoted to a side trip to Versailles, Rheims or Giverny. Twelve days now expended. Train from Paris to London and on to Cambridge for three days; return to London for remaining three days. You'll actually see and experience some of Europe's diversity that way. No backtracking, no one night stays. You won't have begun to know Munich, Paris or London but you'll know far more than you would by just whizzing by as your current plans imply.

Zack, I think Wes has given you some good advice. On my first trip to Europe, I had three weeks and wanted to see as much as possible, too, but I sat down with a calendar and plotted my journey as accurately as I could. Using guidebooks and others' advice, I gathered a rough idea of the things I wanted to do/see in each place, wrote them in on each day on the calendar (after figuring out how much time each might take), added in transportation times, and then found that I couldn't do nearly as much as I thought! The day-trip suggestion will really allow you to spend a lot more time in each place, since you won't have to waste time packing, unpacking, and finding your hotels. I'd drop Innsbruck (as you said you would), Baden-Baden, and Beaunne: although nice places, IMO you'd be better served with more time in Munich, Paris and London as well.

Zack, I can empathise with how you feel. The first several times we went to Europe we wanted to see as much as possible, kind of a potpouri of European culture. I have good memories of those trips but I don't think I would want to travel that way anymore. Part of it is I think not knowing if you will ever be lucky enough to visit again. So again I can understand your desire to experience as much of Europe as possible. You will have great memories but your trip is going to be a lot of work and will also be tiring. You might need a vacation after it's over. Hopefully you will have other trips and you will gradually want to spend more quality time in the places you find that interest you on this trip. My wife and I started with the style of let's do and see as much as possible and have gradually slowed the pace to a week in most places, usually renting an apartment or a house, and really getting to know the area we're visiting, the history, food, wine, traditions, local tales, accents etc. that's when traveling really becomes fun. We finally decided we loved the French life style so much we purchased a two bedrooom apartment in the Latin Quarter, we'll be closing on it in June and starting remodeling immediately. Talking about going from one exteme to the other!!! If your interested in checking it out I'm working on a website at www.lacigaleparis.com, I've tried to make it interesting, entertaining and educational, and plan on having a diary describing purchasing and fixing up an apartment in the Latin Quarter. Good luck with your trip, and many happy returns. Bon Voyage, Randall Smith

Stick with the top 3 countries and really explore them. I would not recommend running around like a madman.

Ancient truism from ancient truth-teller: the more you drive...the less you see.

Hi Zack. I can understand the dilema you are facing. A new adventure, a new world, and so little time and money. Any trip is a compromise among experience, health, time, money, and travel objectives. Usually most of these factors are limited, therefore the urge is to go hard and fast to see as much as possible. There are three ways I can think of to see new places when time is limited. One way is to skim superficially over a wide variety of geographically diverse attractions hoping to get an idea of what is out there. People often take this approach because they don't really know, but having more energy than anything else, they leap into the saddle and gallop off in quest of new attractions. A second way is to study guide books, web sites, interview other travelers, and decide on a limited number of objectives that meet your specifications. This method is good if you have your own specificiations and some pre knowledge of what will meet them. In other words, you must be comfortable in knowing what it is in travel that will be satisfying. A third way to do it is like I did when I was 22. I was living in Kiel, Germany, as a student. When the long break between semesters came, I headed off on my travels without much of a concept about where or why I was going. (London was in the future and Copenhagen was in the past by that time.) I had a little money, 8 weeks of time, and a young man's energy. So I just went, wandering around to various cities just to see what was there. I had heard of Berlin, Munich, Salzburg, Venice, Lausanne, Geneva, Paris etc., but I knew virtually nothing about them. So I bought a long train ticket and started off. In some respects it was a period of fascinating discovery for me but, in the end, I realized that I failed to see some important places because I did not have a plan. For example, despite all my wandering, I did not get to Vienna, and Paris was a disaster because I got there last. I was sick, nearly out of money after 7 weeks of traveling, and tired of living out of a suitcase and sleeping in some very cheap places. To illustrate the extent of the Paris debacle, I failed to see Versailles and Ste. Chapelle. (I finally rectified that failure last September, some 44 years later!) My advice would be to ask yourself one very blunt question: What do you want to get out a European trip?? In other words, why are you going? Be honest in your answer, because without travel objectives your time and money may well be poorly and frustratingly spent. For example, two years ago my wife and I agreed that on "this" trip we wanted to see the Swiss Alps -- nothing else. That was our mutually agreed upon objective. The cities had little appeal, except for Luzern. So we focused on the Berner Oberland and the Pennine Alps. As a result, we found places we love. So we go back. People ask us "Why don't you go to Madrid, or London, or xyz?" The answer: "We want to go to Switzerland because we like it." (And obversely, I don't want to go to Madrid!! If I did, I would do so. OK so my cousin says I should.) Of course my statement leads to further conjecture. Without the experience of earlier wandering, I wonder if we would be so content to localize? Of course we visited Paris, too, and became captivated by that fascinating city. This time, when I got there 44 years later, I was much better prepared. We had a detailed game plan that prioritized on art, music, history, and food. I think the point to these anecdotes is this: I learned from my youthful wanderings that developing a list of objectives is much better than aimless traveling. With maturity, I have come to understand that I cannot see it all, ever. So I pick out the places I expect to enjoy and concentrate on those. As a result, I return satisfied that I saw as much and did as much as time, stamina, weather, and money could possibly allow and, above all, I did what brought me the most reward for my travel dollar. Of that, I am the judge. In the end, it is your trip and no one can really travel it for you. But the better prepared you are before you leave, the more you will satisfy yourself and return with a sense of fulfillment. If a kaleidescopic blur of places and faces is what you want, then do it. On the other hand, if you know that lingering over certain sights and views will satisfy your inner longings, then do that. But, you cannot do both with limited resources.

Zack, I feel your pain! It is really hard to figure out an itinerary when you have so many interests. The region you are going to isn't the one I'm most familiar with, but I have a few general ideas that might help. I am a fan of staying in one place for a good long time and taking day trips. So I would take this trip and divide it into roughly three, 6-day chunks. One chunk has to be Paris. One chunk has to be Germany, with a day trip to Salzberg. In light of your plane reservations, the other chunk could be London with daytrips to the country. Also, if you want to visit your friend to see your friend, OK. But I wouldn't make the detour on this trip if you're only doing it to save a few nights on hotel. That said, if this is your first trip, I was a little puzzled about why you would wish to go to so many places off the beaten path. I think people stick to the beaten path on their first trip because there is a lot of cool stuff on the beaten path. Two nights in Paris, coupled with a strike or other adverse event could mean you might miss Versailles or the Louve or something important. Finally, I'm not sure you'll be happy using a car for transport. It limits you (for instance, the need to exchange it before England), you'll be focused on streets, parking and traffic instead of sites, and it is most valuable for slowly exploring small towns and such at a leisurely pace. As you'll be moving at the speed of sound, the car will just add lots of expense and stress trying to find your way around, in my opinion. Train travel, on the other hand, would give you some time to recover from the blistering pace you're describing. It would also give you more freedom to totally scrap your plans if they aren't working out. Zack, time is wasting. If you're really serious about changing your itinerary, you'd better get moving. And if you stick with your plan and start to tucker out half-way through, don't be shy about calling your hotels and rearranging things while you are there. Best of luck.

Is it too much? Well if you don't want to remember what you saw, and if you want to spend you vacation in transit, or packing and unpacking then it is fine, otherwise rethink now! Europe is larger than you think.