synergy7000

My husband and I are doing most of the planning for a once-in-a-lifetime trip for my parents and brothers. The family is most interested in getting a taste of Italy, France and Switzerland. We're not concerned with seeing every major site in every city we encounter. We are using hotel points to stay for "free" in world-class facilities (part of the reason we can take this trip) in Florence, Nice, Geneva and Paris. But we are struggling with whether to rent a van (picking up in Rome and dropping off in Paris) or buy Eurrail tix for everyone. So far, the van is cheaper and allows more flexibility.

Our basic itinerary is we get dropped off at the Rome Leonardo da Vinci airport on a Friday (a convention previous to the trip is the reason). From there, we either need to rent a car or catch the train to Florence. Itinerary is as follows:

- Florence for 3 days
- Bellagio for one day/night
- Nice for two days
- Geneva for 3 days
- Paris for 4 days

Within those areas, we hope to see the countryside, not just the cities. For instance, we would like to spend one day soaking in the Tuscan countryside (site unknown at this time), spend an afternoon in Luberon/Gordes in Provence, drive around Switzerland, getting a feel for the villages and Alps and possibly drive to Giverny or Normandy from Paris.

The tab for 6 adult fares on Eurrail for 3 countries, 10 days of travel is $2760. A 9-passenger van on the other hand, is $1700 including drop charges in Paris. Gas prices are high, but we still estimate the cost for the vehicle all-inclusive to be simliar or less than the rail tix.

Because of the countryside escapes, we're thinking that having our own vehicle will prove less stressful than the rail. But I know there's many others in this forum who know better than I. Please send your thoughts and wisdom! Thanks very much.

Jocelyn_P

Have you also priced point-to-point train tickets? They are often cheaper than the rail pass.

If you go with the van, be sure that you all pack light so everyone and everything fits.

Underhill

Renting a van in Italy and dropping it off in another country will cost you an extra $250 or so. Better just to rent a car for the country you're in and travel to the next by train.

artstuff

May I ask why you calculated the Eurrail for 10 days when there are only 5 days of travel? Or were you planning several day trips from your "base" towns? Peace.

Robyn

flygirl

personally, I usually go for a car. if you have one trip where you are lugging luggage, you will too, afterwards. don't let it be your 'once in a lifetime' trip.

also factor into the train costs, the taxi costs you will invariably need to get yourselves and your luggage to and from the train stations.

this may end up being expensive too, but, if there is one long leg, any chance you could drop off the car and fly? especially if your last stop is Paris. Easyjet has a quick flight Geneva to Paris, I spent 80 bucks in June on a flight on that route.

if you are going to only need alternate transport for one day trip from Paris (Givery is closed on Monday, btw) then you could do a bus tour to Giverny. it's only 60 miles.

just thoughts. be well aware that you are covering a LOT of ground with a car. to be honest, looking at the number of days - 13? you might want to cut one thing out. I'd cut Geneva this trip, because of distance out of your way. add those days to Nice & environs.

Europe may look small on a map, but it's pretty dang big.

synergy7000

Hi all, Thanks for your help so far. Artstuff, I figured that we could actually use 10 days of train travel if we do all the side trips we hope to do.
Jocelyn, I did price p-to-p tickets and found they add up quickly. For instance, 6 people from Rome to Florence is $330, and then to rent a car for a day trip to Siena would be another $300. Each add. segment would be about $300 and we would need 5+ p-to-p segments. That puts us at $1500 without any car rentals for countryside excursions.

If there was an easy way and cost-effective way to get from Florence
to a rural, quaint village in the Tuscan countryside then we might be able to shave off 3 days on the car rental and take the train from Rome to Florence. Florence is probably the area we'll use the car the least because once we get to Paris, we'll be dropping it off.

I like the flight idea and will check that out as well.

If anyone has a recommendation for where to go for a picnic and stroll in the Tuscan countryside and what means of transport to consider to get there, please let me know.

Thanks!

walkinaround

you are correct in your assumption that a car is better for the countryside. The train is certainly the way for intercity travel but while possible in most places, the train/bus is just not practical for visitors wishing to see the country. The Nice area is an exception and you can "do" the cote d'azur entirely by train.

It's nice that you have the free hotel but world-class = what you can get anywhere in the world. too bad you won't be staying local.

TopMan

You may need to do some further research: for example, IF you are mainly wishing to see Siena and no other towns/villages near Florence then you could easily go to Siena from Florence by either train or the bus...no need for a car just to get to and from that particular destination.

Bellagio: it might be a bit easier to reach by road than by rail; by rail means (usually) a trip to Milano with a change for Varenna and then the ferry from Varenna over to Bellagio; you could also go via ferry from the city of Como; or you can drive.

A vehicle will give the ultimate amount of flexibility there is no doubt.

I am discounting the comment about those taxi fares to and from the train station since we do not know:

how far your hotels ARE from the train station
how much luggage everyone is taking
how able/willing you are to "hoof it" with luggage from a rail station to a hotel

The taxi fares to and from airports won't be any cheaper I can guarantee you that. And IF you decide to fly between cities remember to take into account the baggage weight restrictions imposed on most flights within Europe.

I am a great fan of rail use in Europe probably because I have done it a good deal and find the system easy (NOW!) to navigate/negotiate.

Your statement that "others know better than I" is an assumption in this case which may NOT be accurate. Your inclination is to go by vehicle and all the "added" costs associated with that but I think those costs may be well worth it in this case. You are saving money on hotels so why not go with YOUR OWN instincts and splurge a bit on a mode of transportation you prefer?

Have a great trip.

flygirl

if you are splurging, I go for matching Porsches for everyone.

swandav2000

Hi synergy7000,

How about a combination? Use a rental car for the Italian portion and drop it off at Ventimiglia, avoiding the hefty out-of-country fees. Then take a local train to Nice. From Nice, take the Easyjet to Geneva, then Easyjet again to Paris. As walkinaround notes, the Cote d'Azur is easy to do by local transport, and you certainly won't be eating up a lot of money on the local trains or ferries around Lake Geneva either. If economy is your major concern, the budget airline combined with the Italian rental would probably work best.

s

GSteed

Hire a large van and guide-driver!

gnrbernstein

You have to take the bus from Sienna to Florence - no train.

Another thing to consider is that you don't want the car while you are in the cities, just while going point to point. If you have it, you'll just be paying for it to sit in a car park (which you'll have to pay for, unless that's included with the nice hotels you are getting free).

~gnr~

Jocelyn_P

Actually, there IS a train from Florence to Siena, but Siena's train station is out of the city center, down the hill. Some prefer the bus for that reason; others prefer the train, as riding the bus through the hills can be a white-knuckle experience for some.

rex

<<Hire a large van and guide-driver!>>

I would volunteer to do this, for what it's worth - - but it's not your best bet, I don't think.

When is this trip anyway?

A lot depends on some factors not yet clarified here. I'm a little fuzzy aon the convention/dropping off at Rome fiumicino part. So, I don't understand what elements of the trip are already set in stone... but if you have the ability to cretively re-arrange, i would recommend:

1. Fly directly from FCO to Paris (Orly) on volareweb. Spend whatever amt of time you want there.

2. Fly from Paris to Nice. You can see the south of France now, or on your return - - because I would recommend that the trst of your trip be a circle-van-rental from Nice into Italy (and skip Geneva or substitute a part of Switzerland closer to Bellagio) - - and return the van to Nice.

3. If money is more abundant than time, you COULD return the van in Italy or Switzerland (in fact, returning the van to Geneva would result in drop charge, as there are return offices on the the French side of the airport. Thus, your return airport choices are Nice, Florence (or Pisa), Milan, Lugano, Zurich, Bern or Geneva. Of these several have no direct non-stop trans-atlantic air service: Floreince, Pisa, Lugano and Bern - - but they all connect to major Europe gateway cities.

I think this plan will save you a few hundred dollars ($100-500?) but mostly, it allows you one and only van rental - - after you are fairly adjusted to Europe time zone and general "adapatation" - - and eleiminates the long ground transport from Italy to Paris and back.

Best wishes,

Rex

Lexma90

You've got a lot to decide, and a lot of difficult transportation decisions! Here are some other factors:

Consider travel time in your plans. For example, let's say getting from wherever to Nice will take AT LEAST a couple of hours (even if you fly, including time to get to airport, etc.). Yet you only have 2 days there, and you want to spend one day of that driving through Luberon/Gordes (I haven't checked a map, but it'll take a couple of hours to drive from Nice to the Luberon). Instead of Provence proper, look at Grasse or Vence, or anything a bit closer.

If you really want to see some countryside, drop Geneva and add time everywhere else. IMO, Geneva isn't on the same list of culture, beauty or good food that Florence, Nice and Paris are. And I'm not a big fan of Bellagio, but lots of other folks enjoy it.

If it's a possibility that your group of 6 might want to do different things occasionally, would two smaller cars work better than one van? Smaller cars would fit on narrow European roads better, as well, and MIGHT give you more storage room.

While I agree that it's best to try to do some flying or travelling by train, you're right, travelling by van/car will give you more flexibility and less schlepping of bags than Eurrail tix will. (I'm one of those people who prefers to travel by car, but even I use the train occasionally!)

If you end up working your way north from Rome (though you've gotten some great suggestions for other options), you could (if you drop Geneva), take the train from Rome to Florence. Spend a couple of days there. Rent the van/car as you leave Florence. A couple of days driving around Tuscany, then up to Bellagio (couple of hours drive). Then to Nice, car or train. A car rental from Italy to France entails a significant (possibly more than $250) extra charge. Spend time in Nice, drive to Provence, a couple days there. Then drop the van/car, take the TGV from Avignon to Paris. If you want to visit Giverny or whatever, use a tour.

Sounds like a wonderful trip!

synergy7000

First off, you've all been very helpful in trying to surmise the details of this trip and our intentions on the proposed itinerary - so thank you!

Next, let me see if I can clarify a couple minor issues:

1) The city destinations chosen are a result of the free hotels. We have a few hundred thousand Starwood points that we intend to use for this trip. This virtually eliminates hotel costs for our group yet we're somewhat limited as to the cities we can visit. For instance, there's nothing in Tuscany, but there are a couple incredible hotels in Florence, so although we'd like to browse the Chianti region for a day, we'll make Florence our home base.

2) We have no choice on the flight cities: we fly into Rome for a convention in Saubadia, and once that's finished, we'll start our 13-day tour from there. Paris has been selected as the fly-out point so we don't have to circle back to Rome.

3) This is my parent's first and perhaps only sightsee Europe trip they'll take. They're interested in seeing the three countries mentioned even if it means a little less time in some areas - this isn't ideal, but if time and money weren't issues then we'd have more flexibility.

4) The dates of travel (starting in Rome) would be Oct. 8 - 20th.

TopMan: We'd really like to drive the Chianti region. Siena isn't a must for the group (I'd personally rather go back and stay there a few days). But getting out into the vineyards, rolling hills and hamlets of Tuscany is really the goal. That's why the car seems like the only option. We can ultimately let this one go, but I missed this area last time and it would be sad to miss it again for transportation complications.

I'm beginning to think a big van, as silly as it will look on those compact-filled roads, is our easiest choice comparatively.

Swandav2000 - those are good suggestions; thanks for the drop-off suggestion in Italy. That's a good starting point for me to check those alternatives.

Rex - those are some creative solutions. I'll do the once-around with the fam again to make sure Geneva is a must-see.

Lexma90 - also some good ideas. Thanks for the tip on a touch of Provence closer to Nice.

Has anyone encountered difficulty crossing borders with large vehicles? That thought crossed my mind yesterday...I can just us getting searched extensively because of our big black van as we cross borders! Wouldn't that be a kick. But two cars means two drop charges if we rent for the entire time and we have no takers on navigating European roads besides my husband. I'd be willing but then I'd miss those lovely country drives with him.

*sigh* everything was easy to this point!

Thanks again...I'll keep checking back and scouring this forum for other creative ideas. All the best...Synergy

GSteed

Paradigm. Long ago we learned that groups such as yours were difficult to keep on schedules. You will have to be the 'Captain'. A detailed printed plan may lessen long delays as 5 travellers wait for the other to finish an email session! Research your group, some are always early, some on time and some always late. Happy travels!

Sue_xx_yy

Driving distance, Florence-Bellagio-Nice-Geneva-Paris:
1,077 miles in estimated 18 hours (assuming you do 860 miles on expressways). Estimated highway tolls €126, estimated gas (20 miles per gallon for a van, 6 people) € 200. I forgot to add in Rome to Florence, say another 3 hours or 21 hours driving, mainly on expressways in 5 segments of about 4 hours plus each (about half your day.)

If you drop Nice, you bring it down to estimated 788 miles in 13 hours (tolls are € 105, gas € 157). This is about 3 hours per driving segment.
In both cases you must add in time for stops, lunches, navigational difficulties, etc.

Personally I would take the train on such a long trip, since whoever does the driving is on a busman's holiday. There are also facilities on a train, whereas with a car you must navigate, find places to eat and WCs, etc. etc.

By train and ferry: Florence to Bellagio via Varenna - about 4.5 hours.
Bellagio to Geneva via Varenna, Milan, Stresa, Domodossola, Brig (very scenic route)- 7.0 hours, you can eat on the train.

Geneva-Paris: nice fast easy train 3.5 hours.
Total 15 hours (plus Rome to Florence, fast train 1.5 hours, total 16.5 hours)

Your train prices seem high by about 50 per cent. Trenitalia gives second class Eurostar prices Rome to Florence as € 30 each, for a total of 6 * 30 = € 180 or about US$225.

Adding to the fact that you must buy gas, tolls and yes, parking for a van, and you aren't saving money.

If you want to see the countryside at any given point, I'd look into hiring an 8 person van and driver for the day while in Florence and perhaps Geneva. Either way, you aren't looking at a lot of time dawdling in the countryside with this itinerary.

swandav2000

Hello again synergy7000,

I realize this post is beyond the scope of your question, but I want to add a few comments about Geneva. I know it'll be a tough decision whether or not to skip the city (practicality vs. simple desire . . . ), but in case you decide to keep it on your itinerary, here are my suggestions.

As folks have said here, Geneva itself doesn't have a lot to offer -- simply a big city, not as vibrant as Paris, not really charming, not the "Swiss" character you may expect. So I hope you consider taking a day-trip to the Vaud alps or to the very western part of the Berner Oberland, specifically Chateaux d'Oex, Rougemont, Saanen, & Gstaad. They're very scenic towns set in the middle of beautiful rolling hills that'll have you singing! The train trip from Geneva to Gstaad (the farthest point) will be 2h30 with a change in Montreux. These towns will give you a taste of what folks go to Switzerland for.

I also suggest you spend some time in the smaller towns & villages along Lake Geneva: towns of Vevey & Montreux and villages of Rivaz, Cully, Lutry, and St Saphorin. Maybe take the train to Montreux, see the castle of Chillon, then take a ferry to Rivaz and walk the vineyards. It's too long to take the ferry all the way back to Geneva; it takes about four hours for that trip.

Anyway, if you do decide to stop in Geneva, consider these day trips.

Let me know if I can help further --

s

opheil

I'm also planning a future trip to Italy. After reading this thread I'm still not sure whether to travel with the train or rent a car. There's pro and con for each. My main concern with a car is when you visit the main cities (Florence, Rome, Sienna etc...) I'm told horror stories with using cars in the big cities (parking facilities, driving in the city, theft, etc).

I would like to start with Rome and from there move upward through Tuscany and finaly Venice.

As for the train I'm wondering how easy and flexible it is to use. Should you buy tickets in advance or no problem to get them on any given day. Does the railway covers all major cities.

Are there months that you should stay away from Italy, or which are the best ones to visit in a less hectic environment, and best weather.