22 Day Winter Trip in Europe! Advice appreciated
 

Hi everyone.

Planning a surprise trip for my Fiance this winter; Spain, France, Italy and one TBD location.

I've planned this so far:

Madrid - 2 nights
Barcelona - 2 nights
Paris - 3 nights
Venice - 2 nights
Pisa - 1 night
Rome - 3 nights
Florence - 2 nights

I was considereing adding Greece, but think that may be better for a summer trip.

So my questions are:

1. How is the itinerary?
2. For moving between countries, we're planning to use local carriers since these are cheaper than eurail
3. I assume we can use trains within Italy to move from venice-rome-florence, but haven't been able to find this info
4. any suggestions on modifications? I still haven't figured out where to spend new years yet

Thanks!

I probably would not add another destination, but rather increase time at the destinations you already have. Remember, moving from place to place sounds quick but can take half to a full day each time.

Comments about Italy: Instead of a night in Pisa, just stay in Florence and do a day trip to Pisa from there. It is easily done.

In terms of order: I suggest Venice, then Florence then Rome to avoid backtracking.

Lastly, we found it was sometimes cheaper to fly than use trains. Look at www.skyscanner.com

Thanks PRLCH. Our return flight is from Madrid so I was thinking to fly to Lisbon for 2 nights, then Madrid..but I still need to figure out what's interesting in Lisbon.

In terms of adding more days - which places would you suggest to add more? We've both been to spain so we thought 4 nights total would be enough there.

I don't mean to be cranky - but unless this is a troll (making fun of us Fodorites who do a lot of planning), then you are crazy. You think four nights for all of Spain is "enough". You don't know what is "interesting" in Lisbon. You are going to France and only spending 3 days in Paris. I don't care if you are young, if you will be back, if you like to move around. What you are planning is a stupid trip. You said you've been to Spain before - how did you travel on that trip?

It really blows a whole day each time you move - even if the flight or train ride itself is only an hour. It takes an hour minimum from your hotel door to the airport for any of those airports. Then you need to allow two hours for intra European flights.Then there's the flight. Then, assuming you don't have to wait for checked luggage you still have to get out of the airport and to your next hotel - another hour. So 5 hours minimum to change cities.

If you are flying in and out of Madrid, and have 22 nights you could have several really nice trips. You could stay in Spain, and even add Portugal and really see some of it (but no where close to "all" of it) in three weeks. If you really want to also see France and Italy, that's doable too but limit your locations. You can do Pisa as a day trip from Florence. If you want to keep all the other places then at least just add days to them so you have min of 4 per place. I'd drop one country -either skip Paris and concentrate on Italy and Spain. Or skip Italy and concentrate on France and Spain. If you think you'd be bored in any given city (which you probably won't once you get there) then plan day trips. From Madrid you can easily do Toledo, Segovia, Avila, Cordoba. That's just one example. The other cities have options too.

Finally, have you been to the south of Spain. You are going in winter, best time to see Andalucia. I'd do a week there, a half week in Madrid with some day trips and then fly to EITHER Paris or Rome for the other half. Actually, now that I think about it, skip Paris (I love Paris, been there more than any other single place in Europe but in winter it's cold and dark) and concentrate on Italy and Spain.

isabel, while I am grateful for your advice, i do not appreciate such remarks as being called a troll, crazy and organizing a "stupid trip". I am completely unfamiliar with Portugal as I said, so I have to do more research into it.

Please reread my first post, 4 nights in Spain is divided between Madrid & Barcelona only. We have both been all over Spain, I never said I was going to see "all of Spain" in 4 nights. the only reason to stop in these two cities this time is in the hopes of going to football games if the schedules work out.

I appreciate your other suggestions and will be focused on Spain, France & Italy. Why is 3 nights just in Paris too short?

You say you are planning a 22-day trip but only account for about 15. For starters and to make it more enjoyable, follow much of the advice above. Add a day to each destination, forget Portugal this time, visit Pisa as a day trip from Florence. The trains in Italy work well.

If you don't have your plane tickets yet, consider an open jaw ticket, into Madrid and out of Paris, for instance, to avoid backtracking.

How about:

Madrid - 3
Barcelona - 3
Rome - 4
Venice - 3
Florence - 4(including day trip to Pisa)
Paris - 5

dondoro - sorry, didn't mean to insult you. There are a lot of people who do post "troll" itineraries, and to be honest, your's kind of looked like one. If you've been to Europe then you know how long it takes each time you move cities. So I guess I just wonder why someone who spend the money (and time) to go all the way to Europe (assuming you are coming from outside of Europe) and then just spend a day and a half in a major city. If you are from the US would you advise some one to come here and spend just 2 or 3 days in NY, Washington, Chicago, Miami, and LA. I wouldn't. But to each his own. But the good thing about this forum is that people who have experience can share it. Others don't have to take it. But I'd feel bad if someone took a trip like your original proposed trip just because they honestly though it only took an hour or so to move from city to city (cause that's how long the flight is).

The majority of people who say they didn't like someplace (like Paris) it usually turns out they only spent a short time there. They got frustrated cause they couldn't get to most, or even many, of the things they had heard about. They mostly saw the train or bus or whatever to and from the airport, etc. Or intra city transportation trying to get from point A to point B to point C quickly cause they are short on time. They see only a few major 'sites', which inevitably are not the most wonderful thing about a city. I'm not know for "slow travel", there are hundreds more on this site who think I move around too much. So if even I think your proposed itinerary is a mistake... Well anyway, I was trying to warn you, not insult you. Sorry

Another reason to add time in each location: Daylight hours are shorter in winter. If it takes at least half a day, more like the 5 hours mentioned, to change locations, much of the daylight will be gone by the time you are settled in your next destination. Also, many museums and tourist sights have shorter winter hours. I like mamcalice's adjusted schedule.

By the way, here's the official Italian rail site:

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/homepage_en.html

Everyone has their own tastes for this kind of thing, but I would HATE moving around so much, and having so little time in each city.

Plus when you say "Venice 2 nights" somewhere in there you have to subtract the time of checking out of your Paris hotel, getting to the airport, waiting for the flight, taking the flight, getting into Mestre, transportation into the heart of Venice, checking in to Venice hotel. That is a least a 1/2 day spent. Basically repeat each time you change locations. So on your proposed itinerary, you need to subtract 3-4 days worth of sightseeing, because that's what you'll be using changing cities.

Good train website http://www.seat61.com

Thanks for the clarification isabel and the everyones suggestions, I really appreciate it.


I like the adjusted itinerary that was suggested, the only issue is I know my fiance has always wanted to be in Rome for xmas, so the Italy portion is a bit awkward,given that let me know what you all think about the following; I've also adjusted to have one full day for flying/moving cities:

Dec 15: arrive Madrid
Dec 16: Madrid
Dec 17: Depart to Barcelona
Dec 18: Barcelona
Dec 19: Fly to Venice
Dec 20 - 21: Venice
Dec 22: Train or fly to Rome
Dec 23-Dec 26: Rome
Dec 27: Go to Florence (+Pisa)
Dec 28 - Dec 30: Florence
Dec 31: Paris
Jan 1 - Jan 3: Paris
Jan 4: Return to Madrid for flight via easyjet

I'd like to squeeze in another day in Paris, so not sure if 3 nights in venice is too much.

I checked the open jaw ticket, but the airline that flies directly to where we live in the caribbean will require us to make 2 more stops + add $500/pp if we depart from Paris . I'm hoping we can catch an easyjet flight early in the morning to Madrid and still have a good time for the connection, if this is too idealistic on my part, let me know.

I realize i'm running short on days in Paris (only 3 days/2 nights). Based on this how where could I reduce days?

I don't know your opinion on night trains but there is one between Florence and Paris that you could take which would give you the 31st in Paris. There is also a night train between Paris and Madrid which would remove the chance of a flight being canceled. That might be too many but I think adding 1 in might give you some extra time in Paris.

I would train from Venice to Rome, it is only 3.5-4 hours and Italian trains are relatively inexpensive and it will take you from the center of each city.

I think you may not have accounted for a couple of things:'

1) the weather may be bad which could interfere with/delay plans for getting from one city to another - more than a tiny bit of snow can wreak havoc with travel plans
2) you are much further north and days are much shorter - it's often light on from 8 am to 4 pm
3) Because of the shorter hours and fewer tourists many sights have reduced opening hours in winter (what you can easily see at 7 or 8 or even 9 pm in summer may close at 4 in the winter)

I too wold cut way back on the umber of destinations. I am not a "slow" traveler - since I have been to europe many times and plan on going back many more. But still, for a first trip I think 4 days (5 nights) is the minimum for either Paris or Rome - with 1 less for Florence or Venice.

Of course you may like blitzkreig travel - but I thnk most people don;t enjoy it.

It's hard to say what to cut to give yourself more time in Paris. Would you be willing to skip either Barcelona or Florence entirely? That would loosen things up considerably. I don't think 3 days in Venice is too long but then I *love* that city so am biased about it.

nytraveler, thanks, living in a place where its 20C year round I completely forgot about winter delays!

suze - i was thinking about reducing it two 2 nights (3 days in venice, rather than 3 nights (4 days) is there really so much to keep occupied? i keep reading conflicting information (i.e: 1 day is enough, venice is too small and boring etc) so this confuses me

Dondoro~ I can only speak for myself. I've been to Venice twice (it's the only place in Italy I've been). I was there 5 days both times. I felt I barely scratched the surface. I could have spent a alot longer there before running out of things to see and do.

But yours is an aggressive itinerary and if you think the nights are better spent in a different place, nothing wrong with that.

Personally I would add a night in Madrid at the end. That will give you some margin for error if flights out of Paris are delayed due to bad weather. I would think this is a real possibility in winter, and very stressful if your international flight is delayed.

Enjoy the planning!

Our first trip to Venice was for six nights; we loved it and were sad to leave. I don’t think you would run out of things to see if you were to spend three or four nights there.

Since then we’ve spent weeks there, and are going back at Christmas. There is still more to see and feel.

wow, you got to aadmire the "go for" it agenda.

Do you channel hop a lot as well?

I'd love to see the visit report afterwards

<I realize i'm running short on days in Paris (only 3 days/2 nights). Based on this how where could I reduce days?>
Nowhere. Skip Paris, you just don't have time for it on this trip. Just a hassle, not a joy if you go there.

<i was thinking about reducing it two 2 nights (3 days in venice, rather than 3 nights (4 days) is there really so much to keep occupied? i keep reading conflicting information (i.e: 1 day is enough, venice is too small and boring etc) so this confuses me>
Well, you keep reading conflicting information on whichever subject because there are just enough idiots out there that someone has positive or negative opinions on virtually everything. And just as there are people who still admire Stalin, there are people who think one day is just enough for Venice. Like always, it's crucial to determine which information is reliable... and if you read just a bit of serious information on art and architecture in Venice, you won't have any doubt whether there's enough to keep you occupied for 4 days. Four days! Of course, that's definitely not enough to scratch the surface of Venice; but it's ok for a first start (after which you'll have to come back again, and again, and again, and again - as soon as you've spent, in total, three or four months in Venice, you may say you know it, basically at least).

Ah yes, and by the way, the advice of doing Pisa as a daytrip from Florence is really bad. Pisa is such a nice and lively and young town (a large university!) that it's real fun to spend an evening there, particularly for young people.

I'll get shouted down for this ....

I'd skip Paris on this trip and do it on another occasion.

It is the furthest North, with the shortest days and the coldest weather.

Winter in Paris can be bitter and temperatures can go down well below zero with a cutting wind.

Peter

Not from me! I wouldn't be again cutting Paris. Or Rome. Or even the two cities in Spain. To make for more time in the places you do decide to go. Deleting ones that are furtherst away geographically from the others.

3. I assume we can use trains within Italy to move from venice-rome-florence, but haven't been able to find this info.

Well there are very frequent trains between those Italian cities and you will have NO problem getting on them- you can just buy all your tickets upon arrival in Venice. www.trenitalia.com has schedules and fares and online discounts that American credit cards just do not seem to work so you, if an American, wait until Italy and pay full fare. To learn about Italian trains peruse these excellent web sites: www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com.

well Paris is a major detour in the OP's proposed itinerary but IMO Paris is so so exceptional that three days there would be a real highlight - the best perhaps along with Venice, to me at least.

and if you are the type to hop overnight trains you can take one between Barcelona and Paris and Paris and Venice - saving hotel costs and time. These are hotel trains with comfy private doubles - on the Spanish one some private rooms even have WC/douche in the room.

with the aspect of saving hotel costs flying between bases may not be cheaper than Eurail. A railpass pays the basic train fare but you have to pay a supplement for the type of sleeping accommodation you wish - from a multi-person compartment to higher for a private compartment - but still those sleeping accommodations charges would be less than what i hear the average Fodorite pays for a hotel room - far less.