jgg

Well, you certainly have received a lot of advice already, but let me put my two cents in. We have only been to Europe once. We just went this past March to Italy with our kids age 12 and 9. We were in Italy for 14 nights (6 Rome, 4 Venice and 4 Florence). My kids loved it! Rome being their favorite. I am in the process of planning our trip for this March which will be one week in London and one week in Paris.

I tell you this, to remind you to slow down a bit. I promise you will be back!! I would recommend, as others have, to probably limit it to two countries. Definitely Italy and I would pick France (but then I haven't been yet.)

In addition to all the packing and unpacking, etc. that needs to be done with so much moving around, the cost of transportation to each new location can be very expensive. I would strongly suggest you narrow it down to fewer locations and spend more time in each one. My kids didn't mind being in the city all the time (we live in a small town so they actually loved it!) but they really liked spending more time in each place. They had time to feel comfortable and learn their way around the city.

I found for planning our trip this website as well as SlowTrav.com and its message board SlowTalk.com to be the most helpful (note SlowTrav is mostly on Italy but there is information on other countries.)

Yes, you can plan this on your own. Frankly, it is a lot of fun and makes the trip so much more meaningful.

One more thing. I made all of our hotel reservations last June for our visit in March, and we always got the 2004 rate as they had not posted 2005 rates yet. I would not hesitate to contact them and see if they will take a reservation now.

If you are interested, here is a link to my trip report, which maybe helpful for the Italy portin of your trip:http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34599242.

You are planning a wonderful trip for your kids. Enjoy!

Lexma90

In terms of trying to figure out what the kids (and you) are more likely to enjoy, think about your previous vacations. What did they like a lot? What did they only like a little? What kinds of places do you tend to go? Do you go hiking in the mountains, or shopping in the cities? Hanging on the beach or digging for artifacts?

Also, get lots of guidebooks from your public library. Eyewitness guides are good because they have lots of pictures. Also, the childrens' section often has great overview kinds of books.

Start a "must-do" and a "wanna-do" list; each person can have their own list. That will help you decide where to go and how much time to spend in each place.

I definitely go along with the city-country mixture; everyone will enjoy things more.

It sounds like you're cutting down on the number of destinations. Another thing to keep in mind in doing so - languages. I like to be able to speak as much as possible (which often isn't much) of the language of a country, but I have a hard time keeping more than one foreign language in the forefront of my brain (and DH is of the "learn a few phrases on theplace" variety). So keep in mind how many travel phrases you might want to have.

I'm driving my son crazy in planning our upcoming trip to London, the Loire and Paris, but one thing he LOVES are the Asterix comic books (in English). He's learned a lot about France while having fun. Also, he loves James Bond and spy stuff, so we're planning on doing a spy walking tour in London. Use the internet (especially this site) to help you find things that will spark your kids' special interests.

Have a great time planning!

cawhite

Well, in terms of what we like (past vacations, etc.), we typically like tropical vacations, scuba diving, snorkeling, hiking, sight seeing, natural beauty. We're not really into cities and shopping too much. That's what makes this trip so different (and difficult for which to plan). We want a nice variety of activities and lots of culture.

Are there any countries between which it would be nice to sail (not speaking of a standard cruise)... Barcelona to Nice, etc.?

cawhite

Oh, and we do want to see museums of course... but will have to balance that with other things with the kids....

Castles and boat excursions... now that sounds fun!

jmw44

I think perhaps I'm outvoted before I begin, but I'd hold the 21 if you can, eliminate Barcelona, keep Salzburg and Lucerne, and add a day or two to that last city. Austria and Switzerland will be a refreshing contrast to Paris and your Italian stops. If you must reduce to 18, then eliminate Barcelona, take a day off of Rome and add that day to Lucerne. So many wonderful daytrip possibilities with your railpass. If you want to be on a lake at the foot of the big mountains, then consider Brienz. You won't regret it. J.

rex

Lest you consider yourself part of an outvoted minority, jmw...

...I'll reiterate that my first rcommendation was to <i>consider</i> eliminating Barcelona - - and not necessarily cut fron 21 to 18 (but if their gut instinct is telling them that they should reduce, then perhaps they should).

And your Brienz suggestion is entirely in line with my recommendation to ADD 1-3 nights in smaller, lesser well-known towns or rural areas.

Lexma90

If you're not really big-city people, then I would drastically cut the city time from your itinerary, especially if it's your first time to Europe. Yes, many treasures of the western world are in Paris, Rome and Florence, but if your group isn't enjoying being in the cities, or is stressed out, then you won't be getting much out of the cities.

That being said, keep in mind that portions of each of those cities (and all of Venice, of course) are pedestrian-only, which cuts down on the noise and traffic. Also, our kids love big cities, because there's so much to see and do, and they love all forms of public transportation.

Keep on doing your research, definitely involving the kids. Consider spending time in rural Austria (outside of Salzburg), or maybe Switzerland. Plenty of beautiful outdoor activities there! Also, talk about outdoor sights, such as the ruins of Pompeii. Your family may enjoy those kinds of things more than lots of museums. For being outdoors, while it's a city, Venice is very much an outdoors place, and easy to get around in, because walking is the primary means of transportation.

If you can, when planning your itinerary, start with &quot;easier&quot; destinations, and then move to &quot;harder&quot; ones. Easier are more rural places, where the pace is a little slower; harder is the bigger cities. For example, we're starting our son's first European trip in London (yes, I know it's a big city, but he LOVES big cities, and they do speak English there), then on to the Loire Valley, and finishing in Paris.

Talk as a group - when you think &quot;Europe,&quot; what comes to mind? You have an entire continent to pick from - isn't it fun?

AisleSeat

I think a lot of people here have been hinting at it but you don't have conquer all of Europe in one trip. Go on the assumption that it will still be there for a 'next' trip and just do your family's highlights. Enjoy your trip.

suze

I think we're getting to a more positive approach! Think of what it is your family will have fun doing together rather than what are the must do's in the great cities of Europe.

Hey I'm no kid, but I'd still much rather be seeing castles, exploring the Old Towns, taking boat rides or aerial trams, visiting an outdoor market or local festival, having a picnic... instead of boring dusty ole museums.

Find the FUN in your trip, rather than trying to do what you think you should be seeing.

travfirst

Carole, check this trip report, I hope it will help you with your planning:
'Trip Report: Family of 4 enjoys &quot;La Dolce Vita&quot; for 2 weeks'
Author: jgg Date: 04/08/2005, 05:51 pm

Few places you children might enjoy:
On the way to Venice there is beautiful outdoor miniature park with best monuments build to the scale - Italy in Miniature http://www.italiainminiatura.com/ent...p;ID_lingua=en

For the scenic views and interesting history you can visit the Republic of San Marino http://www.sanmarinonline.com/foto2.htm. I remember the drive to San Marino as the scariest in my life, so bus tour can be the best option.

Out of 21 days you can travel 18 and spend last 3 somewhere on the shore, so everyone can relax.

Request free Visitor Information from all Tourist Offices ASAP.
Switzerland Tourism
(212) 757-5944 Fax (212) 262-6116
Toll-free (USA only) 1-877-794-8037 (1-877-SWITZERLAND
e-mail: [email protected]

Doble_Vergasser

For boat excursions, you might considering the Italian lakes. There are several larger lakes and some minor ones. 90 minutes north of Milan, maybe 3 hours west north west of Venice. Lake Como goes in 3 directions so there are lots of opportunities for boat rides. Lake Garda is a major lake with regular service up and down and there are castles north of Lake Garda, in the Dolomites.

For our next trip, I am researching the hills of Tuscany (Orvieto seems to be popular).

sockboy

Don't be afraid to make a bunch of awful itineraries before you settle on a really good one. I am a huge belieiver in the &quot;perfect&quot; itinerary, subtle details can make all the differece. Get down to the details, fill in train times, etc.

I find that in putting together an itinerary, I jam pack the first draft, with any whim I might have. I then make a calendar and start to research the travel time between each place, and fill it in. Just doing this normally makes me decide to chop a few destinations, and changes the order I visit places.

Then I start to research each of the destinations that I put down. I always find a couple of places that I want to stay longer in, so end up once again chopping places, or limiting them to day trips.

I don't have kids, but travelled with my parents when I was young. I really liked having destination where we could &quot;run free&quot;, do our own thing, and start to feel like we &quot;lived&quot; there. Small towns are perfect for this. Museums and big cities are great for a couple of days, but being nagged to watch for traffic, and stay close, is only fun for so long (for kids and parents). Big cities will also cost you much more than staying in smaller places - I don't know what kind of budget you are looking at. . .

I don't blame you for wanting to do more than one country, one of the things that really appeals to me about European travel is how close countries are to one another, and I love to take advantage of it.

I would do France and Italy, and keep all 21 days. The suggestion of having one kid try to learn some french and one learn Italian is a great one! You could possibly even expand it so that each one was in charge of researching &quot;their&quot; country.

I would be tempted to do an itinerary like this:

1. Arrive Paris - 4 nights, making time for parks and picnics as well as &quot;sites&quot;.
2. Pick up a rental car and head to a smaller French seaside town. (I know very little about France, but there must be a great small town to stay in - research it). Stay for 5 nights in an apartment or house rather than a hotel. Do little daytrips on a couple of days when you feel like it.
3. Train to Venice - 3 nights
4. Pick up rental car and drive to a Tuscan town for 5 nights, again stay in a house or apartment. Do short day trips by car a couple of days - 1 day to Florence.
5. Take the train to Rome and spend 4 nights before flying home.

tomboy

We took our kids to Europe when 14 and 11; a week in England, and a week on the continent (2 nites FR, 5 nites DE). 2 of the German nites were at a farm, which had children the same age. My kids learned that they could communicate ideas with the kinder without knowing the language, and that they could pick up some basic phrases just from playing with the kids. Very broadening experience. You might consider how to have something of that nature for a few days, even if you stick to your big-city-only itinerary.

DeborahAnn

You've gotten great suggestions that will take you all over Europe and they all seem to make alot of sense. What I'm sure you will end up doing is talking to your kids explaining the possibilities and find out what is important to them. If THEY are happy you will have a wonderful trip, wherever it may be. I think this can be dinner table conversation for months to come. Enjoy your planning, your kids are at a terrific age for traveling to Europe. Deborah

Wifeybug

Carole:

You have stirred up lots of memories and excitement, I'm sure. You have gotten a lot of great suggestions for your trip. Here's my 2 cents:

I think that your proposed itinerary is very ambitious for a first trip. I think that you're trying to cram too much in, and run the risk of being frazzled and frustrated, then coming home weary. Not good. My husband and I tend to try to pack in as much as we can, and we don't have kids. I can't imagine doing this with younguns.

Our longest stays in Europe have been 2 weeks. In 2000, we did Spain, Paris, Gibraltar, and Tangier. We had no specific plans, Spain was the main focus, and we added some side trips along the way. It was a lot, mostly done by car, but with no kids and our sense of adventure, we pulled it off. We still consider it our best trip.

In 2003, we visited Italy - and just Italy. I wanted to add more, but hubby felt that Italy was an experience in and of itself and that I shouldn't dilute it with other destinations. He was right. We trained and bussed our way to Milan, Venice, Florence, Siena, Rome, and Sorrento. So easy to get around, and there's plenty of variety in this boot to satisfy everyone's tastes. Open jaw flights would have made our travel even more efficient. Live and learn.

In 2004, I took my mom to Paris for her first European trip. My &quot;Mom &amp; Me&quot; report is around here somewhere for your reference. I'll top it for you. We visited for 1 week only, focused on the city, and took day trips to Versailles and the Loire Valley. With 2 weeks, I would have added London and done the same type of thing there. London and Paris can be great introductory European destinations.

If you and your family want a &quot;garden variety&quot; European vacation, I would reference Rick Steves' 14 to 21-day itineraries. You can always take the tried and true and modify it to suit your needs and tastes. You may also want to consider a cruise, as others have mentioned. In big cities, I would suggest splurging on nicer accommodations. After dealing with the hustle and bustle while sightseeing, it's nice to retreat to a clean, cozy, well-appointed room. Speaking of money, your budget may also help you to decide on which countries to visit, how long to stay, etc.

I make our travel arrangements. It's a control thing. But I get great ideas and inspiration from hubby, these boards, and other web sites. You can check out all of the books and brochures you want (heck, buy a couple once you nail down your destinations - I do); but there's nothing like firsthand accounts from real people, who have been there/done that. I combine these elements into an experience of our own, and we always have a great time. Enjoy the planning process, and the bonding time with your family.

Hope this helps!