alanRow

Travelingjunkie have you

a) done it since Schengen began?
b) done it since 9/11?
c) done it legally?

The Schengen zone expands at the end of the year so the number of non-Schengen countries drops.

After this year non-Schengen basically means UK, Ireland, Switzerland, Russia, Cyprus & various of the Balkan states - and Switzerland becomes Schengen at the end of 2008

roussillon

The rules re Schengen stays have been clearly outlined here. So in theory you have to watch the 90 day rule...

BUT, in practice, the world is much less complicated. For example, if you arrive in Switzerland from North America, you do not get a stamp in your passport. You can then go by car into France or Germany or Italy (they don't stamp car people, or at least I have never ever gotten a stamp that way), so Bingo, there you are, no evidence or first arrival date in your passport or anybody's records.

If you move around via train, your passports are just looked at and not stamped. (NB recently we got a stamp going from Vienna to Prague by train, but I think that is particular to the Czech Republic, as it was the first ever for us). In Most of Western Europe, nobody will know or care how long you have been in Schengen. Most authorities only care about whether you are allowed to be in their own country.

So to sum it up:

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...

but in practice there is... Rouss

Askar

hopscotch: #Keep your nose clean and <b>keep some cash in your pocket</b>#

to bribe the police ??!!

hetismij

Ok, so you don't get a stamp in your passport but that doesn't mean that the date you arrived is unknown - your passport in scanned and goes into the Schengen system with the date of you arrival. It will be scanned again when you leave Schengen, and everytime you re-enter. You stand a very good chance of being banned from returning to Schengen if you have over stayed your time. All the computers are linked nowadays to track you. Do you really think that Schengen would not register the arrival of aliens, desirable or otherwise? It would make it a terrosists dream if they didn't.

alanRow

In any case it's up to you to prove you are in Schengen legally not for the authorities to prove otherwise

There are reports that folk who've gone to Morocco and have then returned to Spain have been denied entry because they'd outstayed their Schengen allowance

roussillon

Hetis...

Sorry to disagree on what actually happens:

&quot;Do you really think that Schengen would not register the arrival of aliens, desirable or otherwise? It would make it a terrosists dream if they didn't.&quot;

I travel a lot in Europe on both business and holiday travel. Unfortunately, you can very easily ride in a car through any of the smaller border crossings from Geneva Switz into France with &quot;nothing to declare&quot; and you will not be stopped at all.

And even if you are randomly stopped, the Swiss people ask to see your passport, but that is it. They do not scan anything. And there is never anyone in the French booth, as no one is doing contraband OUT of Switz as it is too expensive vs France, so NO control. Sorry. That is the reality.



And now when you are in a train, are you saying that your passport is passed through a computer when you go from Germany to Austria, or from Spain to Portugal? Nope.

Sorry, but AT BEST someone will look at it and hand it back. More often, there is no control at all. And the DO NOT stamp it. (except Czech which I mentioned).

I hope you are not taking this &quot;anti-terrorist&quot; stuff too literally...the system is deeply flawed. Reality is unfortunately different from theory, and I am only pointing it out.

BTW, I just had to add new pages to my passport because in 18 mos it has been filled full with stamps and visas, but the system has holes as big as a barn door. Best, Rouss

Christina

I agree there may be holes there, but it isn't true that only the Czech Republic in Europe checks passports or stamps them when traveling by train. Last year, I had both Germany and Poland check and stamp my passport when I went from one country to the other by train. And both are Schengen countries.

elina

Christina, Poland is not a Schengen country.

AAFrequentFlyer

The fact still remains that when arriving in Europe/Schengen country your passport does get scanned thus entering your arrival date.

Any Schengen member reserves the right to close and or control it's own borders for any reason.

If I knew I was going to spend a very long time in Europe I would apply for the required visas.

Good reading:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...chengen_en.htm

Cowboy1968

Most people just think of Schengen as an agreement that got rid of border controls. That is only half way true.

While official or mandatory controls have been abolished, Schengen gives its member states the possibility to exercise spot controls in trains, train stations, major highways, and so on.

And yes, passports do get checked on a random basis also on trains which just go from one Schengen country to another, e.g. travelling from Austria to Germany or v.v.
And yes, the border police got wireless equipment to check your ID cards or passports in the train and match them with whatever lists they have.

And even when you travel from Switzerland to France or Germany by car, and you do not get a stamp into your passport, you will have to sign in at your hotel or hostal in France or Germany. So your data and your date of entry into the Schengen countries is on record.

That does not mean, that in real life you could not roam around forever with no police or else caring about what you do.

Alec

A few errors of facts:
1) Schengen agreement doesn't lay down tracking movement of aliens (non-EU/EEA/Swiss citizens) in and out of the area, and present Schengen accord doesn't include it.
2) Scanning of passports at entry only serves to check passenger details against Schengen database (SIS) of immigration offenders, police wanted lists or terrorist alert etc (a passive system), and does not record the details for tracking (an active system). Individual countries may record entry, through immigration card etc, but cannot track your movement if you leave Schengen via another member state. Present Schengen Information System has no capacity for comprehensive, Schengen-wide recording and tracking of millions of aliens.
3) Instead, the emphasis on policing overstayers and other immigration offenders is through after-entry control such as random id checks away from land borders and airports, and scrutiny of applicants and tightening up rules for residence, employment and social security. As already pointed out, should you come to the authorities' attention in these or any other way, the onus is on you to provide evidence of legal stay. If you cannot, you can expect trouble and possible prosecution and deportation.

zippo

Police see no point in enforcing these regs unless it suits them, so unless you are causing a problem they will avoid bringing the subject up.Its different in 3rd world states where they use it an excuse for a shakedown.

AAFrequentFlyer

Switzerland is a unique example. They are not a Schengen member but are totally surrounded by Shengen countries. Their airport immigration is very thourough, perhaps one of the best in the world, so the chances of &quot;undesirables&quot; sneaking into the country and then crossing any of the 4 frontiers are slim, and that's why the borders between Switzerland and their neighbors are very relaxed.

AAFrequentFlyer

btw, pretty soon the whole of Europe will be Schengen members:

The ten new member states that acceded to the European Union – and thus to the Schengen Agreement – on 1 May 2004, except for Cyprus,[5] are set to implement it on 21 December[6] for overland borders and seaports and 29 March 2008 for airports[7]. Those dates[8] still could change:

Czech Republic
Estonia
Hungary
Latvia
Lithuania
Malta
Poland
Slovakia
Slovenia
Signatories yet to implement the agreement:

Switzerland aims to implement in November 2008 [3] [9].
Cyprus aims to implement the agreement in 2009.
Bulgaria aims to implement the agreement in 2011 [4].
Romania aims to implement the agreement in 2011[5].

hopscotch

If the USA would join Schengen we wouldn't have any issues with long stays.

Alec

And open borders in US for 400 million Europeans? I don't think so.

hopscotch

Why not? We already have an open border with Mexico and the hundreds of millions south of the Rio Grande.

LoveItaly

This thread reminded me of an interesting article in the International Herald Tribune on Oct. 1st.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...r-Measures.php