annw

Hello Fellow Fodorites, I just got two business class tix on Lufthansa March 17-31, flying ATL to FRA and back FRA-ATL (we'll be getting to ATL and back on Delta miles from SFO, not ticketed yet).

We are "carry-on" travelers and fairly fit, fifties.

We'd like to get to Paris. We've been, but not for some time.

We love train travel and are keen to do the Paris-Berlin overnight train and are happy with another couple of day trips on the trains.

I'd like to be in Venice (our favorite) Mar 21-22-23 for a workshop, if we can swing it.

We need to end up at FRA to fly back on Mar 31.

Reviewing the map, I'm thinking FRA-Strassbourg (or Cologne?) -Paris-Berlin-Nuremburg/Munich-Venice-FRA.

DH will be working part of the weekdays via internet broadband card/laptop. I'll be off so only need internet contact (have iphone etc.).
I've been to Mainz, Heidelberg and Munich; he's only stopped at FRA & MUC. We haven't seen much of France between Paris and Germany. (Love Switzerland and Austria but of course too much for this trip). Proportionally prefer more time in France or northern Italy as it can work out.

OK, thanks for your thoughts; this one is brand new and I'm just starting; appreciate feedback or suggestions, particularly for routing. I know logically we should forget Berlin, the outlier, but DH is WWII film buff and we are unlikely to get there on another trip. (FB Fodorites, I'm keeping this off FB.)

Our interests: history, culture, scenery, good food but not necessarily fancy restaurants (like bistros; don't need the Michelin 3 star, for ex.), walking around town; don't like to drive if possible (do enough at home). Coffee/hot chocolate at neighborhood cafes, etc. Just being away from our native habitat for a while and being in new and interesting places. Would like to consolidate in a few places but seems tough on this trip!

Michael

Take the train from Frankfurt to Pris, but then I would fly to Venice, and from Venice fly to Berlin.

I recommend this book for its 5 walking tours of Berlin:

Peter Fritzsche and Karen Hewitt, <u>Berlinwalks</u>, 1994

You might be able to find it on Abe Books.

If the weather is bad in Paris, take a walk through the <i>passages</i>

Almost any book on Venice will be sufficient to take walks in the city.

For cheap airfares, try this: http://www.flylc.com/directall-en.asp

<i>passge</i>: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...57623429262296

to whet your appetite: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...7623174831107/

annw

Thanks, Michael -- would you then do the Berlin-Paris train instead?

Michael

<i>would you then do the Berlin-Paris train instead?</i>

I thought that your RT was from Frankfurt, and you could either train or fly to Frankfurt, depending on time and convenience. My understanding is that some cheap airlines do not use FRA, which would mean a transfer from one airport to the other if flying out on the same day, whereas there is an easy transfer to the airport by train even if the train from Berlin does not stop at the Frankfurt airport.

PalenQ

since you love trains why fly - see the lay of the land in between - European trains are fast and modern and if doing the routing in OP then by all means look at the Eurail Select Saverpass for 4 countries - France, Germany, Austria and Italy (have to go thru Austria to reach Venice by train) - this is a flexipass where you buy a certain number of days to be used whenever you want over a longer time frame (2 months) or if traveling a lot with day trips then look at the 15-consecutive-day Global Eurailpass - could use also for little things like riding RER C in Paris out to Versailles or taking the train in from Frankfurt airport and using S-Bahns in cities like Munich and Berlin - very utilitarian metros on which railpasses are also valid.

The passes come in first class only if over 25 years old and this is a huge plus to me - in my decades of incessant European rail travel I conclude that first class is well worth the extra cost - seats are significantly bigger, luggage easier to stow, and there are usually IME several empty seats - you will find four seats together often as well whilst 2nd class can often be full or nearly so or even at times SRO.

Anway check out these fab IMO sites for planning a European rail trip - www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com. For schedules I always use the Wunderbar www.bahn.de or German Railways official site that has schedules for trains all over Europe.

sites like www.bahn.de also sell a limited number of online discounted tickets that are however usually train-specific and non changeable nor refundable and to get must be booked weeks in advance. For flexibility to take any train anytime you want once there the railpass can be an especially good value - and again the pass is first class so IMO compare to first class fares. On the trip of a lifetime you will be much more relaxed in first class - especially couples traveling together.

annw

OK, I am ditching the idea of Venice workshop; we'll end up in Venice briefly before returning to FRA instead.

Thinking of heading west from FRA -- first night Cologne, or Strassbourg (any recs, anyone?), the Paris, then the Paris-Berlin overnight train, then Berlin, Munich, possibly Nuremburg, then Venice and finally either train or flight (if can get cheap one) VCE-FRA per one of Michael's suggestions.

Yes PalQ we will be considering 1C flex passes for the travel though still reserving on some routes. Bahn.de is one of my favorite sites. Seat61 is another favorite and I found the Paris-Berlin overnight train (with showers!!) on that site. Will look at your suggestion of the global flexpass since we are there 2 weeks; thanks for the suggestion.

Michael

Two weeks with Paris-Venice-Berlin was about right. With travel time, even by air, it would mean about 4.5 days in each city (I am assuming that Frankfurt is just a transit point). Adding Strasbourg, Cologne, Munich makes little sense. If you are more interested in Germanic culture, to which Strasbourg can be added without stretching too much, drop Paris. Why insist on an overnight train from Berlin to Paris? Why not a direct train from Frankfurt to Paris? There are multiple departure directly from the airport which take anywhere from 4 to 5 hours with one transfer point.

Or if it fits the Venice schedule better, go Frankfurt-Berlin-Venice and then an overnight train to Paris. From Paris you can take a train to the Frankfurt airport if your flight leaves late enough.

annw

<<Why insist on an overnight train from Berlin to Paris? Why not a direct train from Frankfurt to Paris?>>

The recent idea was indeed to head toward Paris after landing in Frankfurt but to stop on the way to avoid a too-long first day of travel, since we are traveling from SFO-ATL-FRA. As for where to stop, German culture, French culture... all good to experience; we've traveled little in the region between Frankfurt and Paris.

But with a 4-5 hour train, Paris could work. So we *are* heading toward Paris, whether or not we stop somewhere on the way, and only *then* would do the Paris-Berlin leg, after a few days in Paris, which we do enjoy, and *then* south to Venice. The idea was, again, to stop in either Munich (I've been to, DH hasn't) or Nuremberg (historical significance).

Thanks for your suggestions...seriously considering dropping one of the spread-out points, which would probably be Berlin. Frankfurt is definitely a transit point only on this trip.