2 months in Europe Jan-Mar: help me prioritize!
 

Hey everybody

I'm planning two months from mid-Jan to mid-March, and while the beginning and end of my trip are somewhat set, I have about 20-25 days in the middle to work with.

So far my itinerary (with no. of nights) looks something like:
7 Sicily (starting in Palermo, working to Siracusa)
4 Sorrento (and Naples/Vesuvius/Amalfi areas)
4 Rome
5 Tuscany (base either in Florence or smaller town)
2 Cinque Terre
2 Venice

!!!!! help me fill in this gap (22 days in this itinerary mockup) !!!!!

2 Canterbury
4 London
4 Oxford
1 Nottingham
3 Glasgow (whence I fly back)

The beginning of the trip in Sicily and Italy is with my girlfriend and follows a slower home-base approach to traveling until she flies home. My last two weeks are visiting relatives and checking out London. As a result I am happy to fill the middle period traveling at a bit of a faster pace, but I still wouldn't want to spend less than two nights in any one place.

At the moment I am debating between taking the route North through the heart of Europe (stopping in Austria, Prague, Germany and BeNeLux,) or West along the Mediterranean to Spain (I have an uncle in Madrid) and Portugal. Either route can finish in Paris. Also, because I am willing to spend a couple of weeks sprint-traveling, is there a way to combine the best of all; mashing Madrid, Seville, Barcelona, Prague, Berlin, Koln, Amsterdam and Paris into a single 3-week run?

My personal interests are in history, culture, architecture and urban development. Also, music performance is my profession and so checking out as much local music culture as possible factors into my plan. I am most drawn to larger cities, but want to balance them with smaller locales where I can get a stronger taste of local life.

And although I appreciate the world's natural wonders, living in Canada I have several in my backyard and so am only interesting in seeing the natural sights that are the most unique to Europe. (Black Forest doesn't rank high for me.)

My budget is shoestring but ample, and I am willing to modify either the beginning or end of my trip. Also I am a 24-year-old male and will be with my girlfriend for the beginning, traveling solo in the middle, and meeting up with family for the end.

Help me plan a trip of a lifetime - thank you!!

David
Pianist in Toronto

<< music performance is my profession and so checking out as much local music culture as possible factors into my plan >>
Zarzuela is to Spain what Gilbert & Sullivan is to England, Offenbach to Paris, Operetta to Vienna, the musical to Broadway…
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hi David,

i know that music is your thing, but is it your only thing? you are ending the italian leg of your trip in venice, which is not very far at all from the dolomites - have you thought of doing a bit of skiing? only a few days would refresh you for the next part of the trip, which i would suggest you spend in southern spain - not just for flamenco, but for the weather you'll find there that time of year - it's almost bound to be better than nothern europe.

or if you really don't mind more snow/rain and it has to be music, head for Prague or Vienna - there is loads going on in both places for the musician. from either place you can head for Berlin, then Amsterdam and Paris.

I think you should take le Cinque Terre off your list. Your time frame is too early.

You wrote:

"My personal interests are in history, culture, architecture and urban development. Also, music performance is my profession and so checking out as much local music culture as possible factors into my plan. I am most drawn to larger cities, but want to balance them with smaller locales where I can get a stronger taste of local life."

All that says to me you should spending a lot more time in Napoli, one of the most extraordinary cities in the world for studying layers of human settlement and urban planning, and what can go wrong as well as right. Plus, it has a phenomenal local music scene. And please realize that if you want a taste of "local life", it isn't necessarily happening in the small towns -- especially not the small towns where tourism has displaced the tradition life.

I highly recommend that you include Arezzo as part of your tour of Tuscany.. (Arezzo is where the musical scale was invented, and has a beautiful town core that is not dependent on tourism for its economy.) From there, you could rent a car and visit both Urbino --one of Italy's most famous town planning dreams that actually became reality (most didn't) and you could also visit Pienza.

Since you have an uncle in Madrid, I'm going to suggest you leave Italy and head for Barcelona, another fascinating city for lovers of architecture, urban planning and music (and with better winter weather). Then on up to Madrid, also with a great music scence and a free place to stay! But do take a day trip to Cordoba.

I would skip Sicily, painful as that sounds, to give yourself more time in Napoli and more time with the Renaissance. You are spending so little time in Venice, I suggest you save it for another trip. From Madrid fly to the British Isles (and hope for an early spring!)

Have a great trip wherever you go.

PS: I meant to add that from a base in Arezzo you can visit Florence very easily.

One another PS:

After Italy/Spain/Great Britain, I wouldn't go as far north as Scotland (days are so short in March). Instead, take the train toward Paris from London, but I would do a stopover in Antwerpen (great music), do day trips to Ghent and Brussels for the right-and-wrong of urban planning, and on to Paris, which is short on music but long on great architecture and important urban planning.

Go visit your uncle in Madrid! Although flamenco comes from the South, this is the flamenco capital of the world. The best artists tour the Madrid scene on a regular basis, and you could have lifetime experiences at tablaos such as Casa Patas, Cardamomo, Las Carboneras and others. To be assured of the real deal, consider going to Peña Flamenca Duende in the Vallecas district south-east of the city center. They stage fenomenal artists on every each or second Friday night: http://www.kanalduende.com/

Updates on flamenco performances in Madrid theaters: http://www.deflamenco.com/agenda/events.jsp?barrio=1

Rising star Belén López dancing at Casa Patas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hbhkIWSX-Q

>I wouldn't go as far north as Scotland (days are so short in March).<

Ignore this. By mid March day lengths in Scotland are almost identical to Paris and London.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...&afl=-11&day=1

Where do some ideas come from? Of course the days are not shorter in Scotland in March. That is in Nov/Dec/Jan. After that the days get much longer very fast.

On March 15 sunrise/sunset in Glasgow are 6:30AM/6:20PM. In Paris they are 7:05AM/6:55PM so exactly the same daylight hours.

Oh - stilldontknow . . I completely missed your post. It just bugs me when we get "authoritative" posts that give totally incorrect info.

Thank you all for your helpful replies!

I am reconsidering Sicily - I agree that the time saved would be well spent in the Naples/Salermo areas. My two biggest draws to Sicily are the excellent Greek ruins (as well as Norman,) as well as what I assume would be considerably warmer weather at the end of January, compared to mainland Italy. Am I assuming correctly? Or would I get warm enough weather and satisfying Greek ruins (Paestum) if I just stick to the south of the mainland?

Skipping Cinque Terre would be a harder pill to swallow, though I agree it deserves a longer timeframe and a warmer opportunity. I'll probably decide on that on the fly. Same goes for Venice.

The consensus certainly seems to favour Iberia over Central Europe, in terms of maximizing warm weather and musical experiences. Fortunately I am under no pressure to completely make up my mind until I get there. That being said, I think there is no way I would be able to make up my mind without planning my "next trip to Europe" at the same time, so that I can see the places I missed.

Perhaps I can compromise by squeezing a little BeNeLux (minus the Lux) after Iberia, and then on a later trip I can take the central road all the way from Scandinavia to Greece, through Berlin, Prague and others.

So many difficult decisions!

Also, the trip must end in Glasgow as my Father's OTHER brother lives there, and I have already booked a very open-jaw return that flies back home from Glasgow.

Thanks again everybody, it is extremely helpful to discuss this with other people and gather their experiences. Any other points to consider? I suppose my next step is figure out the Sicilian question....

As for ruins, the single best preserved Greek temple in Europe is Paestum. Plus Napoli was originally a Greek city/colony, and you can still pick out and tour some of the remains of the ancient city, much of only accessible by underground passageways.

The weather in Sicily is not likely to be "considerably" warmer than the southern coast of the Italian mainland -- although someone will surely come winging in here with historic averages off the internet. I was once in Sicily in April when it snowed! No telling what you'll get in winter.

I live near le Cinque Terre, year round, and visitors best enjoy it in fine dry weather, which is harder to come by in the time frame you are traveling. Besides, people have different reactions to the place, and while some people adore it, you also can find plenty of opinion on Fodor's and other message boards that it is overrated as an international travel destination. (I agree with that view, especially for people looking to experience local small towns traditions. They have been displaced by mass tourism in le Cinque Terre.) The Italian Riviera is a wonderful place to eat, relax and ponder a great many things, but come in the nice weather and pick a spot less touristy than le Cinque Terre. Go 20 minutes in either direction on the coast and you can have that for a song.

If it really breaks your heart to not even glimpse the Riviera, there is an overnight ferry from Genoa to Barcelona that runs all year -- but check which days! As you move north through Italy, you veer off from Florence, spend one night on the coast, and then catch the evening ferry to Barcelona.

As for what people consider a short day, there's nothing "authoritative" about my opinion, ever, so you all can relax (if that's possible for some of you!) . Having visited all these often overcast places -- and it will still be winter mid-march -- the daylight hours felt oppressively brief (maybe I should get up earlier!). But thank goodness for Google.

If you need to fly out of Glasgow, sounds great, especially for a musician interested in local culture, music and urban planning.



Have a great trip!

Oh wait! I take back "often overcast." Never mind I said that.

> But thank goodness for Google.<

But thank goodness for living there. Google was only used in case you disputed the facts.

I didn't need google either -- since I've actually <i>been</i> there in March (and just about every other month). "<i>Google was only used in case you disputed the facts.</i>" Same here since . . . well you know ;) . . .

Maybe if you live there you get used to not seeing the sun in the winter. dcatkison needs to fly out of Glasgow, but is Glasgow now going to get recommended as a winter destination? I once posted on Fodor's that Glasgow should be considered as a possibility for a rewarding tourist destination as well as Edinburgh, and janisj rushed in to accuse me of "misleading" the inquirer, authoritatively declaring Glasgow was too "difficult" to see!!! (Her getting "bugged" in this therad is about me, not what's posted.)

I've never lived in Glasgow in March, but I have lived in London and Paris in March (and San Francisco), and the fact that the sun was rising or setting behind the low overcast or rain wasn't a lot of consolation. I still had the lights on indoors.

But I hope dcatkinson finds nothing but sunny skies in Glasgow in March!

Weather could be anything in Glasgow in March, but it's the point where the day length starts changing really fast, which I always rather love....loads of things for you to see and do....any questions, do ask! Make sure you get a tour of the City Chambers....

Glad to see someone reintroducing subjectivity into travel advice. I travel with Einstein.

http://www.dictionary-quotes.com/whe...bert-einstein/

Well, it seems that the uncles lobby in Scotland is stronger than the one in Madrid...

Sorry! I meant to type 6:45!

I just feel compelled to add:

These things really are much more subjective than most people are willing to let on. I often read on Fodor's people using historical weather averages or astronomy tables as "proof" the temperature is warm enough during some travelers time frame, or the days aren't short or what have you.

But if you live in a climate like San Francisco or London and haven't moved yet because of it, you might not appreciate that others don't take these things as normal. Likewise temperatures. Plenty of my UK friends and Pacific Northwest friends tell me that they could never live In Italy -- way too hot! -- and they'd even miss the rain.

Likewise, I'm sure many people would find the day plenty long if the sun didn't actually set until 6:45 -- but my experience of being in London during March was that the onset of twillight fell quite early, and that even on a sunny day, there was only a few bright hours at mid-day. Paris in my experience enjoys more clear winter weather -- and altogether the City of Light is a brighter place to be.

Anyway, I'm quite glad I visited Scotland, and it rained buckets when I was in Glasgow. The sky was slate and I didn't see the sun until noon -- and that was in September. So maybe I should have gone in sunny March!

A funny thing happens with day lengths around mid-March, which affects Scotland just as it does Italy.

Some appear to have forgotten, but next year on the 20th there'll be what most people call the vernal, or March, equinox - and that day, all over the globe, day and night have as near to equal lengths as makes no difference!

If it's really necessary, look here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox

Peter

Phew, glad we sorted that one out. Since my visit to Glasgow is family-driven and I am going to be flying out of there, the length-of-day discussion is irrelevant to my plans. As it is I expect the days in Italy to be relatively short as well, seeing it is at a similar latitude to where I am now.

However I am still curious to hear people opinions regarding climates at this time of year... Browsing the forums I have seen conflicting opinions on whether Tuscany is nice in the wintertime - also, over at Lonely Planet I have a poster pleading with me to not go to Cinque Terre in the winter, saying it is desolate and too cold to enjoy walking around. I've heard similar things about Venice during this time of year.

Thanks again for the comments, people. In addition to the above, can anybody advise me in my decision whether or not to start my trip in Sicily? As my first time in Italy, would it spoil me to go to the craziest most exotic part of it?

I think the Iberia vs Cen Europe debate is waaay to hard to figure out, and maybe I'll just go where the wind takes me when I've finished in Italy. My varied musical interests certainly can take me both ways. Any additional insight there would be very helpful.

Thank you!

dcatkinson,

As to weather, there really is no predicting or fine tuning it, given the very short window you plan to be in most of these places.

As for Sicily, the people who travel by "formulas" to Italy are to me missing the point of travel. Of COURSE you won't "spoil" your first time in Italy going to where the Greeks went! It makes a great deal of sense to start there, and there is never a "right" way to approach Italy for the first time. It's not a dog or a kindergarten project. You should fly with your curiosity. And when you are done touring Italy, you can decide for yourself if Sicity is the "craziest most exotic part of it." I don't think it is.

As I think I mentioned, I live near le Cinque Terre. One day last March, a storm blew in that was so fierce, the wind picked up a table, tossed it over a fence, and smashed it to bits. Other days (before the table broke), I ate my lunch in the warm sunshine. Still other days, the steps were so icy (and around here, there are a LOT of steps), walking around outdoors was risking breaking a bone.

The same is true of Tuscany -- and even Sicily and the southern coast. I can find you pictures on the 'net of snow in all those places in February of 2003 and 2009 (I think those were the years). Other days -- in the SAME YEAR -- people were happily bopping about in light jackets.

The real point is to keep your plans as flexible --- which you obviously are already keen to do. By all means plan to go to Tuscany and visit small hilltowns. But know that you may want to change your plans and head to Bologna for the day. Be ready to jump on a train to le Cinque Terre.

As for your "varied musical interests," do they include/exclude flamenco. catalonian folk song, opera? Organ music? French pop? What's happening in Berlin? People can advise you if you candidly post what most you want, and what you suspect would be of merely academic interest to you.

The LENGTH OF ANY DAY according to astronomers is not only irrelevant to your plans, it is usually irrelevant to anybody's travelers plans and misleading information. The length of the day in winter in Oregon is the same as much of the east coast of the US -- and warmer!!! So why don't New Yorkers move? Most will tell you candidly they'd rather be cold and face snow than give up their intermittently sunny winter days for the typically non-stop gloom of rainy Oregon, no matter how many astronomers wave pieces of paper under their nose yelling: "See? It's the 'day' is the same length!" What will matter to most people is whether they ENJOY being in a destination, and that is a complex question based on you, not a chart.

Have a great time. Go with your curiosity and your heart. Make your own mistakes. You won't regret that, ever.

>The LENGTH OF ANY DAY according to astronomers is not only irrelevant to your plans, it is usually irrelevant to anybody's travelers plans and misleading information. <

Which begs the question, why did YOU bring it up?

stilldontknow,

If I had written "It's darker the further you go north?" -- would you still be having this problem? That isn't an abstract measurement. It's something most people care about when they pick a travel destination. Many people like to see the sun during the day, even when they travel. Perhaps most. That's why I brought it up in advising the OP about an itinerary for winter travel in Europe. I tend to think travel is about the whole experience, not just the "sights."

What matters to most people is not the astronomy chart but how much of the sun a person actually sees during the day. Does that sound irrelevant to you? That is why many people will never move to Oregon -- or Scotland -- or pick it over other destinations in winter. They'd miss seeing the sun.

You say you live in Scotland? Great! You are in a position to offer more intelligence than an astronomy table to a traveler, that takes no account of real weather. I brought up the daylight factor because having lived in London in March, going any further north was a gloomy prospect. So I share my experience for people asking about travel in Europe. That's why I "brought it up." I'm only sorry I didn't use terms like "daylight factor" or "darkness".

HOWEVER, I've also experienced Paris in March. Have you? Can we agree that that one sees the sun more often in March in Paris than one sees it in London (even though the sunrise/sunset clock is pretty much the same.) And that for some people traveling, that would might sway them one way or the other?

Curious travelers surely want to know (if you do): Is Glasgow in March more like Paris or London? Is it a place where the sun frequently breaks through? Do you prefer dark and wet weather to sun? (Some people do you know!)

That would be helpful information in the mix. Some link to an astronomy chart isn't much of a picture of what many travelers will care about when trying to decide whether to head north or south or to a microclimate absent plane tickets already bought or waiting relatives.

Like I said in a previous post Northern Europe in March is unlikely to be a hotspot. Yes I've been to Paris in March. It was cold and wet. Is it always cold and wet in Paris in March? Probably not. Would I be justified using my limited but negative experience of the weather in Paris in March to tell travelers to avoid the place? I would think not, particulary given the significant amount of other diversions on offer. Similarly with Scotland in March.

The OP has already indicated that, coming from Canada, he's not hugely interested in experiencing the great outdoors. Given that preference Glasgow or Edinburgh has a much to offer as the equally inclement Belgium.

The rest of your blather is just that, blather.

Stilldontknow,

And you can't resist insults, which you seem not to notice are their own form of blather, or that repeatedly wanting the same thing explained to you invites what you think is blather.

I doubt many people would agree with you that Glasgow compensates the way that Paris does when it comes to cold dark weather. But only one person is taking this trip, and he is going to Glasgow,. My initial advice to the OP to eliminate Glasgow, Berlin and Sicily wasn't based on the worthiness of the destinations to the OP, as I already explained.

Anyway, thanks once more to Google for providing what the BBC calls the "sunshine duration" for Glasgow.

In March, 11:51 hours of daylight is the norm for Glasgow.

Hours of sunshine in Glasgow in March? 3:11 hours is the norm.

I feel justified in posting once more that people might want to consider hours of sunshine before choosing Glasgow or any travel itinerary taking you that far north in March and, absent relatives or similarly compelling reasons (like very much wanting to see Paris or London on a first trip to Europe), eliminate going that far north in Europe in March.

I do notice someone who continually strives to evade the point and shift the goal posts when the facts are inconvient. Given that I would take with a large grain of salt the accuracy of anything else you have to offer.

Thanks again for the help. Sorry to see the argument that I helped develop - honestly, aren't some things just worth letting go, on both sides? It's like that comic where the guy is being called up to bed, but can't because "somebody is wrong on the internet!"

In any case...

Zeppole - your advice regarding weather in Italy has been extremely helpful, and so I will strive to keep my plans flexible and allow them to be weather-dependent to a certain degree. Overall very positive comments, so thank you! (And everyone else - do not fret, I understand everybody's opinions here are subjective, and I would never choose to go or not go anywhere because someone on a forum told me it was dark.)

Back to the music thing I could never pick between Opera and Flamenco. That's what I meant when I said I have varied tastes. Professionally I play everything from classical to jazz to rock to ambient techno to Brazilian folk to music theatre, and anything you can think of in between.

As well as seeing whatever music is most culturally unique to that area, I would like to check out the more globalized contemporary scene - either jazz or rock/pop, or even both. I assume both Madrid and Prague, for examples, will have ample opportunities to see all of the above, and so I'm not sure if I can go wrong either way here.

I think I will just try and keep all my options open, and start off in Italy and just go wherever I feel like going, being confident in the fact that I'll have a great time wherever, and I'll have to come back and see the rest another time.

Once again thank you for all the help! J

dcatkinson...You are doing a trip that I have always dreamed of. The longest that I have been able to stay in Europe is 3 weeks at one time!n I am planning to go and stay at least for a month. I will split my time between France and Italy...unless I change my mind and take two months! Let us all know how your trip turns out!