16 days loop Venice to Venice
 

Trying to plan a vacation loop. Here's what I am thinking so far. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I think we are trying to do to much. We are group of 4 adults. Our friends have never been to Europe before. We are in charge of planning the trip. Thinking of cutting out Baden-Baden and adding another day to Munich and Lucerne. What to you experts think?

Fly in and out of Venice from LAX.
Pick up a car after spending time in Venice.
Venice - 3 days
Bellagio, Italy - 2 days
Lucerne, Switzerland - 3 days
Baden-Baden Germany - 2 days
Munich, Germany - 3 days
Salzburg, Austria - 2 days
Venice, Italy - 1 night

Not sure I'd hack over to Baden Baden, any special reason?

Baden-Baden is a pretty boring spa town, full of Russians and old-agers. Yes, the spa is fine, but all over Germany you find excellent spas and hotels with beautiful spas.

Driving time from Luzern to München is just 4 hours, so it is doable. You may even spend a night in Hohenschwangau or Füssen to visit the castles there. Or in Garmisch and ride up to the Zugspitze (but you had Mount Pilatus in Luzern).

Why in the world are you circling back to Venice? It will make much more sense to avoid wasting any of your limited time by flying home from Munich. Just flip Salzburg and Munich in order and you're there.

Open jaw (multi-destination) flights should cost no more that this circle - and Venice is not even a non-stop from LA anyway.

Also I would try to simplify - since 2 nights in a place means only 1 day of sightseeing.

I checked about an open jaw and it is more expensive than doing a r/t fare. Also, we are thinking of renting a car and it is very expensive to drop off the car at a different location. We priced out train tickets but since there are 4 of us it makes more sense and is cheaper than doing train travel.
Baden-Baden was just an idea. Wanted to go see the Black Forest. But I don't want to be rushed.
Our itinerary is really adjustable and open. I big things were to go to Lucerne, Munich, and Venice. I know we can do a day trip to Salzburg from Munich but then the drive is much to long to get back to Venice. We can also fly into any city we want. Have purchased tickets yet. It's just less expensive to fly to Venice or even Milan.

>>Wanted to go see the Black Forest.<<

I live in the Black Forest. Baden-Baden is not in the Black Forest, which is a mountain chain. Baden-Baden is in the plains.

If you want to see the Black Forest, then drive up from Luzern northwards. See the Feldberg, the highest mountain, and walk on top. See glacier lakes and moraines, beautiful valleys and waterfalls. Picturesque villages and traditional farmhouses with wood-paneled living-rooms and ceramic stoves inside. Go on a longer or shorter hike.

One of the prettiest and most authentic Black Forest villages is Menzenschwand with lots of traditional houses, lovely scenery, a deer park, a waterfall, moraines, hiking trails, goats and cattle grazing on mountain meadows and a wonderful spa with saunas and a thermal indoor/outdoor pool.

Driving time from Luzern would be around 1:45, and from there to Munich 4 hours with the option of a stop at Lake Constance.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with driving back to Venice. You will cross the Alps again and drive through Kärnten, a valley with many lovely lakes.

Thanks for clarifying where the Black Forest is. I should have looked on a map. Sounds beautiful. I will check out the town of Menzenschwand. How many days do you suggest? I was thinking of 2.

Lake Constance is worth putting into the mix and yes the Black forest is worth it for the hiking and the local beers

Add in the expense and trip time lost if you must return to Venice. Might be worth a little higher fare.

There is enough to see and to in the Black Forest for two days - even longer. Here just a few examples:

- I already mentioned the Feldberg. Take the cablecar up to the summit and walk there through a tundra-like landscape.

- You may walk to the Feldsee, a very picturesque circular glacier lake with an impressive moraine. Have traditional fare in the Raimartihof near the lake.

- In Rothaus, there is one of Germany's most successful and most beautiful breweries. They also have a traditional, wood-paneled restaurant and a beer garden. Opposite the brewery, you find the "Hüsli" - a traditional Black-Forest house that has been turned into a museum. Very recommendable. If you like, you can hike a bit through the forest to the Schlücht Lake. There are also two neat historical chapels nearby (actually in walking distance, but also accessible by car). And in the nearby town Grafenhausen there is a wood-cutter named Stiegler who makes traditional carnival masks as well as modern sculptures.

- The Schluchsee is the largest lake in the Black Forest. Do a roundtrip partly with the steamer, partly on food and have a meal at Unterkrummenhof. Also, boat and canoe rentals.

- For a more demanding and dramatic hike, you may hike through the Hasslach and Wutach gorges, very idyllic.

- In Bonndorf, you find a carnival museum with traditional masks and dresses of the Black Forest.

- In Schluchsee town, in the café at the Kirchplatz, you get (no wonder) the world's best Black Forest Cake, of course heavily infused with kirsch schnapps.

- In Altglashütten, you may watch a glassblower doing his work.

- In Menzenschwand, what about a hike through a lovely valley with glacier moraines and a waterfall and after that relaxing in the thermal Radon-Vital-Bad (spa)?

- There are also many scenic drives. There is some pretty scenery in the area of Feldber, Bernau, Todtnau. Todtnau has impressive waterfalls.

- Bernau has another traditional farmhouse that has been turned into a museum about woodworking.

-

You want to splurge?

What about the restaurant in Hotel Adler in Häusern? They have a Michelin Star since 1964. And beautiful interiors. Also one of the best hotels in the region.

http://www.adler-schwarzwald.de/en/

Lake Como:
If you would stay at Cernobbio or Moltrasio instead of Bellagio, the whole Venice - Lucerne journey time would get some 3 hrs shorter.
The cumulated driving time (without any intermediate stop) could then be reduced to about 25 hrs.

What do you want to do at Lucerne during 3 days?

I would suggest flying into Milan, where you'll probably find some real bargain fares these days. It's certainly much more convenient for reaching Bellagio. You could then put your stay in Venice after Salzburg. If an open jaw flight into Milan and out of Venice costs a lot more than a round trip into Milan, you could drop the car in Venice and take the train to Milan Malpensa, staying near the airport the last night. (We usually stay in the Hotel Cervo, which is inexpensive, has a shuttle, and is fine for a night near the airport.)

Just had a quick run through Kayak and it doesn't look as if open jaw flights cost any more than RT to Venice. Don;t know your dates of course which might make a difference - but looked at flights both into Venice and out of Milan or into Venice and out of Munich and the cost is the same for RT or open jaw (within a few $) for the same type of ticket (1 stop in each direction).

Perhaps you were looking at 2 one-way instead of multi destination.

Thanks all. Just booked tickets from LAX to Munich in July for $888.00 r/t. Thought that was a great deal. It also includes free checked luggage. Now at least we have firm dates. Going back and looking at routing. Will probably skip Milan now. Will definitely looking into stopping in Cernobbio for maybe two nights. Looks like we can take a boat tour of the Lake. Sounds like a fun way to spend the day. Lucerne: Planning on taking the Cog Train (either the Silver or Golden Ticket Round Trip Ticket). Also, planning on going to Jungfrau Region. We will have a car.

Thanks for all the suggestions. We still have a lot of planning to do.