16 days in France
 

This is my first posting to Fodors as I need some advice in helping me plan our 16 day trip to France next summer. We are a couple in our late 40's and this will be our first summer vacation without our children.

We have travelled to Europe before, including seeing Paris and Nice, but always felt we did not spend enough time in Paris. Our initial plan is to fly into Paris, stay 3 or 4 nights, then rent a car and drive south to Marseilles, but we have no idea what region/towns to visit along the way. We would not have a problem veering east or west as we journey south, and have considered Lyon as a place we wanted to visit as well. When we travel, we like to walk, visit fine art museums, eat well and locally, see the sites and just relax and enjoy each day. There are so many beautiful places and small towns to see in France but with limited time, how would you construct a 12 day road trip from Paris to Marseilles.

Thank you in advance

Heidi

I live in France and can think of few things I'd rather do, unless I had a month or two, than drive from Paris to Marseille. A whole lot of it is a huge bore, especially if you only have 10 days or so and are going to therefore commit yourselves to the expensive and deadly dull autoroutes, which are filled with ginormous trucks and the main scenery being windmills and windsocks. Tolls and fuel are expensive.

France has an excellent, inexpensive train system. I suggest you pore over your maps and the train routes and plan how to do this by train. A few guidebooks, especially the Michelin Green Guides, will enlighten you as to what you can visit between Paris and the Mediterranean that will appeal to you.

Obviously, you will want to purchase open-jaw tickets, into Paris and out of Marseille.

When next summer?
You don't need to go near a toll road if you don't want to.
How long do you want to spend in Marseille at the end?
What are you hoping to see? Mountains? countryside? or would you rather concentrate on towns and cities?

Welcome!

A nice goal you have set for yourselves. A few recommendations on logistics: Fly open jaw, not round trip to and from Paris unless your planned route is a logical circle. Remember that driving tothe next town and checking into your hotel and getting lunch means at least half a day gone, so limit the number of different sleeping places. One idea is to leave Paris by train and pick up the car in Marseilles, Nice, or Avignon or Lyon, saving a long driving day. Or drive from Paris to one of those cities stopping at places of interest along the way ending your trip at the city. Another route would be looping back to Paris and seeing Alsace, Dijon, Annecy in that region of France. Another loop wpould go along the Loire for the chateaux and Chartres etc. and perhaps le Mont St Michel. With 2 weeks you can see a lot but absolutely not every part of France. Happy travels!

But the OP doesn't have 2 weeks if she spends the first 3 or 4 days in Paris.

No, you don't have to stay on the toll roads, but if you're working with only 12 days, and that includes wanting to actually see anything either ON the way to the Med or once you're there, taking N and D roads is going to slow you down considerably.

I know how this feels, Morning Mist. We did EVERYTHING with our kids even after they went to college, and once even after the oldest got married (thank goodness, the son-in-law really, really likes us). We were lucky that our kids were "museum rats" and also loved to hike and cycle. That gave us winter.spring break and summer trips for sure.

But we've been traveling mostly on our own for quite some time. And our style of travel has evolved as a result. So that's going to lead me to ask some serious questions...

• What type of hotel or apartment were you staying in in Paris in the past? How much do you plan to spend per night on lodging? What is the fewest number of days you want to spend per locale?
• Are you eating super upscale, sort of upscale, or can just drop into anyplace after looking at a menu?
• Are you gravitating to a "I want to hang 'in the neighborhood' type of travel? Or do you want to be on a "I want to see this, and this, and this" type of trip? THERE ARE NO WRONG ANSWERS, because you are old enough to know what you want.
• What's your museum tolerance? Do you want to see history? Are you really into art?
• Do you burn with desire for food markets or go, "That's nice. Let's move on."
• Do you want to shop?
• Do you need to or want to rent a car?

For example, now that I understand our style, I frame our trips in this priority or reflection:
1) We want to make use as much as possible of public transportation.
2) We like to "move in" to the locale; three or more-day stays have become our preference. We want to be recognized in the bakery, in the bar, as a "regular." Believe me, it does not take long.
3) We do like to eat a great meal (especially in France, and especially in Paris). But we mix that with drop-ins.
4) When in Paris, we like "themes." On one trip, we tried to explore each and every historic passage. On another, we did Fitzgerald and Hemingway. On another, we tried to find bistros that were serving "old style" Paris food. Strangely, on that same trip, we were in search of French (or other European) IPAs. By the way, we made great friends with that last search.
5) When in the Riviera, we did art non-stop. Chagall and Picasso became our passions, and we went far and wide using rail and bus to find secret treasures about them.

One thing I am adamant about is your even considering staying just 3 days in Paris when you feel you've given it too little time in the past. My husband, the non-planner our trips (but the enthusiastic trip funder), would tell you he could walk for a week in Paris, because he's always interested in everything that is going on. In fact, when I was ill one time, he just picked a point furthest out on the Metro and walked back into the center. He dropped in at little cafes and ate street food and prayed in a chapel he liked. He doesn't speak one work of French (well, French that any French person can understand), but he felt he had a glorious day with "his" people. Go figure.

I hope these questions make some sense.

Happy trip planning,
AZ

Welcome!

I'll add my voice to those saying to consider flying into Paris and out of another city (or vice versa) unless you are certain that a circular route works for you.

And I also agree that if your goal is to get to Marseille, then a train would make much more sense than driving. You can rent a car for traveling in the south once there.

I would strongly recommend that you consult the relevant Michelin Green Guides (they are truly excellent resources for France). And if you haven't seen it, you might find some useful information in my trip report, which includes many fine art museums in SE France:
https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...rance-1669406/

Take the TGV to Dijon and spend a day/night there before continuing down to Lyon. One day there, then the train again to Avignon for 3 days so you can rent a car and visit some of the surrounding area (Les Baux de Provence, St-Rémy, a few of the Luberon hilltop villages). Then back on the train to Nice for the remainder of your time, flying back from Nice.

I would do exactly what Underhill just described. With 16 days I would do something like:
4 nights Paris - train to Dijon
2 nights Dijon - train to Lyon
1 night Lyon - train to Avignon (or not, Lyon is my least favorite of the rest of this itinerary)
4-5 nights, rent a car when you arrive, I like to base in St Remy to see Avignon and towns in that area, then drive to Aix
1-2 nights Aix, drive to Nice
rest of the nights in or near Nice. I love Vence as a base and would keep the car. But if you are more interested in Nice then drop the car on arrival, you can use buses and train along the coast. If you want to visit the hill towns in and around Nice (Vence, St Paul, etc.) then keep the car. Also depends on how long you spend in the other places. If you are down to just 1-3 nights then I'd probably just stay in Nice.

I agree with above about driving south. In the past on different trips we have taken the TGV to Avignon, Aix, & Antibes as a base and then driven from there. A couple of weeks ago I took a bus trip with friends, driving south to Nice.
The drive was quite boring, could have been in Wisconsin as far as the scenery goes. And it was a long drive.
Take the advice of those above and take the TGV to your town of choice and pick up a car there.

Or you could drive down through the undervisited but lovely Auvergne, then across through the Cevennes to Marseilles, or head south east and down though the Jura if you want more dramatic mountains, though the extinct volcanoes are pretty impressive in their own way.
It really depends on whether you want a road trip, with the journey being as important as the destination or you want just hit a couple of hotspots.

Driving to Marseille need not be a bore. One can take secondary roads in Burgundy, detour slightly either into the foothills of the Alps or into the Massif Central. Use Paris and Marseille as end points, renting the car when leaving one city and returning it when reaching the other one. The Michelin Green Guides would be useful to determine what sights interest you, and a map, again Michelin, would help in determining an actual route.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjoJGfmf
https://flic.kr/s/aHsjpA1tca

Perhaps a good map to get would be the Michelin map of the plus beaux villages, which would facilitate the creation of an itinerary from Paris to Marseille.

If it's during July, you can go to Avignon, there is a very nice street festival (theater, music ...) from the 4th to the 20th.

You guys are amazing!!! I thought I would get a few replies with some interesting ideas but this is just great. Thank you.

Our initial plan was to land in Paris, spend a few nights, then drive slowly south with Marseilles as our destination, where we will fly home from. You have mentioned so many different routes as we head south, so it really is going to take time for us to decide what we want to see. We are in no rush, so taking more scenic routes is something we plan on doing. As well, we always stay in nice centrally located hotels wherever we travel, love finding restaurants that represent local culture, enjoy taking day trips from where we are based to see the smaller towns and villages and do not enjoy packing and unpacking every few days and we always try and base ourselves for a longer time in an area we want to explore.

By the way, I have a friend that just got back from Turin, Italy, and she said she loved it. Question: After Lyon, should we head east to Turin and the Piedmont area or go to Marseilles?

Heidi

None of us can answer that question for you! It depends on what YOU want to see and experience.

Of course, but I guess what I am asking is which is a more interesting city, Marseilles or Turin?

I have done some preliminary research on both and they both offer quite a bit. One is on the sea whilw the other is not but Turin is Italian so it would be different than the rest of our trip.

Check to see if you can take a rental to Italy without increasing your insurance coverage.

One could argue that the fact that Marseille is French does not make it any more or less like the other places you will visit than Turin, except for the language. Marseille is unique. And what is "more interesting" depends on what interests YOU.

Personally, I find the contrasts between areas that are part of what is, today, the same country at least as interesting, if not more so, than contrasts that cross borders.

I should add that Marseille is a bit rougher and grittier than many parts of France. I loved it and found it fascinating; others aren't as fond of it.

Agree. Most credit cards will cover your insurance in France, almost none will in Italy.

<<We are in no rush, so taking more scenic routes is something we plan on doing. >>

But with only 12 days to get back to Paris, yes, you ARE in a rush, though I don't think you realize it. You are especially in a rush if you insist on driving from Paris to Marseille. Your outline of how you travel, on scenic roads, staying a few nights in each place in centrally located hotels, etc., does not comport with the schedule you seem to have.

Throwing Turin into the mix just because someone you know was there and had good things to say about it borders on the too-random school of travel and certainly throws a wrench into your plans. It would be like planning a trip from San Francisco to San Diego and having friends tell you they really enjoyed Milwaukee, so off you go.

Your French plans are already fairly up in the air and unformed. I wouldn't complicate them by adding in an Italian city that a) isn't close by, b) is nice but not in the Top Ten or whatever of attractions in Italy, and c) requires special car insurance and a decent knowledge of the rules of the road in Italy, including the ZTLs

Your motives are good, your logistics not so much. It is the "kid in the candy store" phenomenon. Everything looks so wonderful that the kid must have everything. Result: tummy ache. Trying to see everything in a country puts a traveler into the same situation. If you try to see everything, you will see so little of anything that you get a figurative tummy ache.

I suggest you look at a few guidebooks, then take a piece of paper, list the places you really and truly have to see. Next to each place, list the logistical overhead of getting to and being there. Drive or fly or train to location (how long will that take?), find and check into hotel (an hour?), find food, eat, etc. The remaining time in the place is what you will have to see it. One technique for this that I have used is to find an (ugh) packaged guided tour that includes the region you are interested in. Look at the daily detailed itinerary and notice how little time is actually sightseeing (and remember that "see" or "view" in package speak means drive by, "visit" is a short skim, and "tour" is what you really want to go there for). And this is with all travel and hotels and transport arranged for you. You cannot do it as efficiently yourself in places you have never been.

That exercise will lead to a more practical plan. The people who post here love to help on this sort of thing. Do some very pleasant homework, make a few tentative but specific goals, and let us see what you come up with. We will help smooth out the rough spots, help you avoid pitfalls (e.g. Turin) and get you a trip that will make you both happy and satisfied.

Happy travels!

With 12 days, I wouldn't go much farther south than the Loire.

After Paris I'd drive through Normandy, north and south of the Seine. Normandy is a fairly large region and has varied scenery. There's much more to it than the WWII landing beaches. I'd spend time in Brittany, seeing Mont Saint Michel on the way. I'd pick a chateau or two or three in the Loire, maybe driving as far south as Loches and Montresor and Chedigny. Then I'd head back to Paris by a different route, going through another part of Normandy.

We really like the French countryside but my husband balked at how much driving we used to do, so now we focus on smaller areas and what I described above would be a fairly leisurely driving trip. My basic advice is don’t try to cram in too much. You’ll find things to enjoy in between what you expect to be the trip’s high points.

I second visiting some of the Plus Beaux Villages, each of which is typical of its region's architecture. In summer and fall we also look for Villes/Villages Fleuris--the 4-flower villages are spectacular. We look up the weekly markets so we know what's where when. Before the trip my husband looks for restaurants and I find potential B&Bs for us.

Why drive? Because you're in control of your schedule and your routes, and driving is most of the time a pleasure in France. The roads are good and, once you’re off the autoroutes and N roads, they go interesting places. They dip down to rivers and curve around hills. They go by orchards, grassy pastures with grazing cattle, panoramas, chateaus, and stone manor houses.

I love rural France. I know it’s not for everybody and not for most people’s first visit to France. But once visitors get the highlights of France out of the way, they can appreciate the smaller things, like market day in a village where most of the shoppers greet old friends with a kiss or a handshake. You can stand in line at a boulangerie and see regulars ahead of you being handed their baguette before they even say what they want. You can experience waiting in line for ages at the post office, but then when it’s your turn, you are given all the time you need. We notice how well-behaved most kids are, and how attentive their parents and grandparents are.

I think I wrote too much! Can you tell I’m planning our next trip to France?

Ah, Turin...the city of night. We were taken out to dinner one night at 11 p.m., and the city was still full of people (and cars!).

I am certainly on board with many of my fellow board posters. Right now, we seem to be seeing the travel planning version of "we're on this specific mission" with a "look! a squirrel!" thrown in.

My dear, please FOCUS. If you want to do Italy, DO IT. I loved Milan and Turin. Both towns are very different from the rest of Italy. Is that what you want to do? Then just scrap your previous plans and move on.

I see nothing wrong with your original plan--a few more days in Paris than you've done in the past, and then moving on for an experience in gritty Marseilles with ventures in the surrounding area. Heck, I'd go to Marseilles just to see the bar featured in one of my favorite movies, "Love Actually." But I'd fly it, train it, whatever to reduce transport times so you are not driving just to drive. I'll never forget how I was trying to plan rail from Paris to Nice when dear Rex (blast from the past) said, "You do realize you could just fly there for less via Orly."

I sound critical. I am not. I, like others, all just want you to concentrate on your travel experience goals AND on your most desired travel destinations.

Happy planning--even though it's hard at this stage,
AZ



We want you to choose what you want to do--but we also want to make your journey and your dollars work.

While it may seem that we are newbies to European travel, we are not, so if I have given off that impression, I apologize. We have been to various places in Europe over the last 15 years, many during the summer months and some either in the spring or fall. We rent a car and drive in virtually all of our vacations as we enjoy being on our schedule and driving really has given us the flexibility that trains and planes cannot. The only times we have used rail or planes is when we were not allowed to travel into eastern European countries with our rental car (that was a few years ago; maybe things have changed), when the drop off charges were very expensive or distances between two destinations were too great.

We have found through our years of planning vacations that a desired plan at the outset almost always leads to the discovery of other places to visit, so that is why I was asking about Turin. We have been to Italy a number of times, but never as northwest as Turin, so when a friend came back from her business trip, she said she adored Turin and it is a place that I would love. After doing my own research, I have to agree, but because we do not have the time to do both Marseilles and Turin, I think experiencing two different culture and countries in one trip, as we have done before, should be interesting and fun.

Just so you know, I am not insulted in the least and not taking anything personally at some of your harsher 'tones'. It has actually helped me focus and find a plan that suits us well.

Without having the days numbered just yet, we are planning for a trip of about 16 days and we will fly into Paris in mid July, spend some time, then rent a car, and drive south to Lyon, stopping along the way (we do not know where yet). After Lyon, we will take a train to Turin (drop off charges are just too high for a Paris/Turin car rental), where we will spend time and also rent a car for a few days to explore the Piedmont area.

Details to follow :)

Thanks everyone. You have all really been a huge help.

Heidi

I was in Marseille almost 12 (!) years ago and really enjoyed the city during my brief visit. I have always wanted to return. For what it's worth, it felt markedly different than the other parts of France I've visited.

I was in Torino two years ago and loved it. A bit of a French vibe, actually, :p . In any case, I stayed in the Hotel NH Collection Piazza Carlina and recommend it highly:

https://www.nh-hotels.it/hotel/nh-co...piazza-carlina

What a beautiful hotel. Thank you for the recommendation. The more I research Turin, the more excited I am to visit it.