12 days in Italy
 

I have a few tentative itineries for 12 days of honeymooning in Italy. In the opinion of well travelled lovers of Italy, which seems best for first timers?

2 days Venice - 3 days Florence - 3 days driving in Tuscany/Umbria - 4 days Rome... or,

2 days Venice - 3 days Cinque Terre/Pisa/Lucca - 3 days Florence - 4 days Rome... or,

4 days Venice - 4 days Florence - 4 days Rome

As you can see I am starting in Venice and ending in Rome and the trip will be 24th August to 4 September.

I know these dates are not ideal for travelling Italy but I am hoping you guys can help me form the best plan.

What do we want to experience? Scenery first. Art/Mueseums second. (though we love both)

Please advise!

If you want scenery first and art museums second, 3 days in Florence -- when it is going to be hotter than frying pan -- is not likely to delight you. Umbria is also extremely hot and there is little reason to be there unless you want to tour the art towns.

I would suggest that you add a day to Venice, even though it will be hot, simply because you will need to get over your jet lag. Then head straight to the Cinque Terre via train (through Milano and Genova).

Spend a few days there. Take a train to Pisa a rent a car. Find a nice place to stay in Tuscany with a pool that is not too far from Firenze or Pisa. If you feel like it, go to Firenze. If you don't, visit small towns with nice churches. The morning you need to be in Rome, drive to Orvieto, drop off your car. See the beautiful cathedral. Take the train to Rome.

With only 12 days I would pick only 3 destinations. Yes, it will be hot.
My picks would be Venice, Tuscany & Rome.

I don't want to repeat a discussion that nessundorma and I seem to have every 10 days, but I'd certainly skip the Cinque Terre - WAY to crowded in August and, for me at least, hell anytime during high season, not at all relaxing - and would include Umbria by all means.
I share nessundorma's advice to visit Florence only if you are avid art lovers, but I think we'll never agree on Umbria. Hot? No, it's not. Don't go to Lago Trasimeno, that's Umbria's only hot region, and a dull landscape, too, but go for the hills south of Assisi/Foligno, or go to the east, the gorgeous and (in Europe) unique mountain scenery around Piano Grande. The hills boast plenty of art, but are a delight also if you just prefer to drive around a little, relax, sip some great wine, take a coffee on any small main square of any small medieval town/village, watching a vivid yet peaceful town life hardly to be found anywhere else in Italy... Umbria is quite certainly the paradise of this not always paradisiac world, so don't miss it if you have the opportunity.
However, bobthenavigator has it right when he tells you to limit yourself to three locations, that's certainly the max. Two days for Venice is not enough, make it four, and then decide between Florence or Umbria, or between Umbria and Rome, cause as fascinating as Rome is, THIS is going to be the really hot place of your journey, just if you really happen not to like hot summers. Not like a frying pan, though, but rather like a Turkish hammam - Rome's summers can be, other than extremely hot, very humid.

Ok, so this is where I am torn! I definately want Venice for 3 days and Rome for 4 days, so that leaves us with 5 days to spare.

Do I go with Nessundorma and take the train from Venice to Cinque Terre/Pisa area, or

Go with Franco and travel from Venice through to Umbria perhaps by car?

...and where does Florence fit in to all this? Do I need to visit the city for my first trip to Italy? Should I leave it for next time?

By the way, we are relatively heat resistant coming from Australia where it is almost always hot. However, on the down side Australia is not a crowded country so we are not that familiar with many people in a small land area.

Hi Quinny,

Here's my opinion. Areas like the Cinque Terre (and Amalfi Coast) have a LOT of people crammed into a small area during peak season = stressful and crowded.

Tuscany & Umbria have so many small towns and are so rural that even during peak season, they don't seem crowded. If it were me, I'd go to a very, very small town, do some day trips from there and enjoy "my" little town in the mornings and evenings without the day trippers..

I would save Florence for your next trip.

Buon viaggio!

...and if I were to choose, this little town would be Bevagna, no doubt.

I agree with Dayle--find a small town and day trip. Bevagna is hard to beat for Umbria as is Spello. However, I do prefer south Tuscany--consider the Pienza/Montalcino area.

Wow! Should I really leave Florence out of my first Italian trip? Who else agrees given my situation? That is such a big call considering so many first timers to Italy would visit there. However, I am open to all suggestions.

Help fodorites!

ttt

Quinny,

You can see lots of art and museums in Rome and Venice. I'm a great believer in mixing up a trip with a balance of cities and countryside for many reasons.

I stayed in Montalcino 3 nights and Spello 2 nights in Sept. Loved both!

Your posts are making sense to me Dayle. Thanks for your great advice!

Some folk on other sites seem to think I am robbing Florence and that it deserves a visit, even if it is just for one day on the way through to Tuscany/Umbria. True???

quinny,

Most of the advice you get will be from people who will want you to repeat the trip they took. It is a natural instinct and noble thing to share your pleasures with others, but it is real trap in giving travel advice. Most people going to Italy plan their trips with guidebooks that steer them to the same "must-sees" and "highlights" from a MONUMENTAL point of view. It stems from the idea that traveling to Europe should above all be about sightseeing and collecting "pictures", not about doing what interests you.

You said YOU like scenery more than you like art/museums. I suggest you listen to your inner traveler. Personally, I see no point in going to Firenze for a day in August.

franco,

the only reason I include Cinque Terre in OTHER people's itinineraries is that they say THEY want to go there.

Personally, I have no intention of ever setting food in Cinque Terre again in my life for all the reasons you mention. There are much nicer, less crowded, less touristy destinations along the mediterranean. CT has beautiful mountains, but it has been fairly ruined by overtourism.

That said -- (since you picked a fight ;-) ), Umbria is extremely hot in August -- not just Lake Trasimeno! -- and while you may adiore it, I think the food and views are far superior in other regions of Italy, even in neighboring Tuscany. Why avoid Firenze only to land yourself in Assisi, crammed with tourists, tour buses and trinket shops -- and it's all uphill in the August heat to boot! Of course the Piano Grande is unique --- but quinny is not going to be where he/she can easily find the way to it, since we are talking to first time travelers in Italy.

Since eventually quinny needs to be in Rome, and expressed a desire to see Cinque Terre, I would suggest a steady drift westward.

(quinny, if you don't mean to hike in the Cinque Terre, consider bedding down in someplace like Portovenere, Lerici, Santa Margherita Ligure or Levanto and taking a boat to see the towns, since being on the water might be cooling.)

ps, quinny,

if what you are hearing about the CT is discouraging you, I'm not advocating you go there at all. But were I to go to Umbria in August (and I wouldn't), I wouldn't pick Bevagna, which is on the flat plain. I'd pick an atmospheric hill town, like Spello, or an agriturismo with a pool.

Franco is going to kill me!

I've been to Florence and seeing the Uffizi and the Accademia was very high on my list. Everyone should see Michaelangelo's David. Just that it can wait for another trip - maybe an off season trip when heat and crowds are less....the quinny can see more scenery on this trip.

I think everybody who makes a statement like the above about how others should spend their precious travel hours and dollars should only do so if they are willing to pay for other people's vacations.

I've been to Italy almost a dozen times and logged hundreds of thousands of miles there. Maybe someday I'll go into the Accademia in Firenze to see Michaelangelo's David despite my total lack of interest in most of Michaelangelo's art work. But it certainly won't be in August. And I may never get around to it all. Six trips to Rome, and I've yet to see the Pieta.

Other people's "must sees" are rarely worth forcing yourself to see.

nessundorma, it's true that quinny said he wanted to see the CT - but... it's only half of the truth!! Just look at his first itinerary version: "3 days driving in Tuscany/Umbria", so I have as much reason to tell him about Umbria as you have about the CT, I guess.
And no, I'm not going to kill you. I'm simply telling you a story. I know that there is more beautiful scenery in Umbria than in Bevagna's immediate surroundings (after all, quinny wouldn't spend the whole day there). But the town itself is a splendid example of a walled medieval town (then, rather a city, today, rather a village). And above all, the life going on there makes it a heaven on earth - it's the people, nessundorma, not the landscape. And here is my story: Several years ago, I was in Bevagna not for a holiday, but for reasons of work (rather unpleasant, indeed, related to the earthquake that damaged Assisi's basilica). I popped into one of the local groceries to buy some of my favourite olive oil (Frantoio Nunzi, Cantalupo di Bevagna). The owner told me that he had his own olive grove, and was producing his own oil, too, bottling it only upon request; if I came back the other day, he'd prepare some for me. Well, due to my very tight working schedule, I had to leave early the next day and couldn't make use of the offer. The conversation I had about that oil took less than 10 minutes. They hadn't known me before at that grocery.
It took me some years to come back to Bevagna. The grocery was no more there, the owners off to their pension. But the olive grove, I supposed, should still be there. I asked what had become of the former grocery owner. People sent me to his home, a few steps away. I rang the bell. He opened the door, looked at me, and before I could explain what I wanted, he burst out: "I remember you. You're the one who is interested in olive oil."
Experiences like that are what I'm first of all traveling for, much as I love art and food (and wine, since we're talking about Umbria).
Btw, I agree about Assisi. Pilgrim crowds are even worth than tourist crowds, but there worst thing is a mixture of pilgrim AND tourist crowds. And yet, don't beat me: what Dayle said about Michelangelo's David in Florence is true for me about the S. Francesco basilica of Assisi. If anyone is interested in Europe's first highlights of medieval painting, that's the place to go. I don't speak of a "must" for everybody, but of a "must" for those who share this interest in medieval painting. And the rest of Assisi's sights is just great, as well. Of course, it's by far better seen in October, when the weather is still nice, and the crowds are mostly gone. In October, Assisi can be really pleasant, believe it or not. And quinny, remember that I didn't recommend you to go to Assisi in August - I was talking about the hills south of Assisi/Foligno...

Well, OK Franco -- and even if quinny didn't discuss Umbria, you were certainly free to bring it up.

But it's good you tell that story about the basis for your affection for Bevagna, because obviously such experiences are serendipity and can't be planned. I once had a co-worker insist to me I simply had to go to eat at a certain restaurant in Italy (it wasn't easy to get to). She told me it was fanstastic, the town was fantastic, the road to it was fantastic, etc. So I made a point of going there (it took a day out of my trip of hard driving on truck routes) and I discovered it was an awful tourist trap in a pilgrim town with very mediocre food, served up to such large numbers of people it arrived at my table almost cold.

I later asked her what she saw in the place and she told me that the day she was there, the entire restaurant was filled with touring soccer teams from Africa and China who were visiting Italy, and everybody ended up drinking and singing and hugging in tears from the sheer international brotherhood of it all. I remember her telling me "That's what travel is all about!" -- but what were my chances of duplicating that experience?

By the way, I hope you will visit Emmanuela Brizi at Frantoio Brizi in Montefalco the next time you are in that area. Have her show you the olive oil press in her basement (her family is still bottling oil there) and to relate the story of how why her grandfather built the house and where he stole the wood for it.

As for where to begin to understand the art of Italy, I say go first to the museum in Perugia.

Well, let's make the show go on:
This is NOT the basis for my affection to Bevagna, heaven, no. I had loved Bevagna long before! It's just ONE of numerous examples why it is so very pleasant there. Of course, you won't be able to repeat this or that certain experience (and I think we know each other well enough in the meantime that you don't suppose me to suppose you could). But there are places where experiences like that are more, or less likely to happen. Chances are minimal that you'd experience it in Munich. Or in Milano. Or in Vienna. Or in Paris. You can experience it in Venice, for example, but just if you are quite knowledgeable about the city. In Umbria, in the Marche inland, in Abruzzo inland, in northern Lazio, chances are simply much higher (strangely, much higher for example, than in southern Lazio, though that is a non-touristy region as well). And in Bevagna, chances are particularly high that you'll come home with "your" Bevagna story (and I've told you just one of mine - by no means the only one). Bevagna is just the perfect example of an unspoiled, happy, self-assured (but not arrogant) town where that specific Umbrian mix of urbanity and rurality seems to work even better than it does in most other Umbrian towns.
But of course, everyone is welcome not to believe me; paradises don't improve at all if too many people try to discover them, too. :) :)

...and of course, Frantoio Brizi is already on my list...

I like Bevagna too, but I'm not talking about it because I want it to stay unspoiled.

If you like art museums, you have to go to Florence, and specifically to the Uffizi, which is one of the great art museums of the world.

Given your interests, stick to your last plan, and, from Florence, do a daytrip or 2 into the Tuscan countryside. For example, take the bus to Siena. Or rent a car.

Having just returned from Umbria I will say that the scenery is beautiful. We stayed near Bevagna, in an agriturismo near Gualdo Cuttaneo. My favorite town in the area was Spello, a gorgeous hilltown. I also enjoyed Bevagna, Montefalco, Trevi and Todi quite a bit. I prefer the smaller, less touristed hill towns. Assisi was great, and we loved wondering around the town, but it was definitely touristy, and I'm sure it will be even more touristy in the summer. Of course its touristy for a reason, and absolutely worth a visit if your in the area.

That being said, we took a daytrip to Tuscany, visiting Montepulciano, Pienze and San Quirico d'Orcia and I thought the scenery in this area was quite spectacular. Very open and vast and beautiful. I wish we could have broked up our trip a little and spent a few nights in this area.

Having little interest in many art museums, I will admit that I was bored in Florence after a few days. If you are interested in scenery first, I would probably avoid it. Otherwise perhaps you could include it as a daytrip from Tuscany.

Tracy

Franco,

The next time you are in Milano, head straight for Alla Vecchia Latteria-Ristorante at Via dell'Unione, 6. Several years ago, I got off a flight in Milano on a cold day in December with a stomach so bad from the airline food, I just wanted to die. But my husband was hungry, so I agreed to go with him to a restaurant, and I pulled out of my pocket the address of the Alla Veccchia Latteria, since a good friend had recommended it and it was nearby.

We walked into this tiny, tiny grocery store jammed with tables and happy people. We squeezed into a chair and the owner came by and one look at my face and he wanted to know what was wrong. When I explained about my bad stomach and the airline food, he had just the cure: Warm gnocchi -- so delicous! And a feast for my husband. I instantly began to feel so much better, and the owner brought me just the right wine and sweets. On our way back through Milano, on New Year's Eve, we went back for lunch. The owner gave us gratis cakes and wine to celebrate the new year, and more cakes and grappa to take home to the US.

So Italians are so kind wherever you go! And they don' forget you.

Yes, that's absolutely true - they don't forget you cause they're interested (really interested, not just superficially) in other people. If we're telling experiences now, I might add the one about my favourite coffee bar in Venice. It's a very stylish modern place, somewhat unusual in Venice, and when I first discovered it, we went there on two or three subsequent days - actually nothing special, just imagine HOW MANY foreign people a barkeeper in Venice comes across day by day. It was more than one year after that till we came back - and they actually had not forgotten us, either!! They greeted us like old patrons (what we've actually become since), first question was: where have you been so long?

Lovely story.

Don't hesitate to not visit Florence - THIS TIME - if it works best for you. It's a great city, with even greater art, but you'll enjoy Italy all the more if you don't try to cram everything in on your first trip (during a hot time of year, to boot). Tell yourself that you'll be back!

I love the CT, but agree that late Aug. is not the best time of year. (How about a trip in the future, more in the off season, to Florence and the Cinque Terre?)

One thing about Umbria (and we'll be visiting there ourselves again this fall) is that it is less touristy than Tuscany. That means, maybe, slightly fewer English-speaking people, but not so you'd have problems. And there should be fewer people. You could visit only Tuscany, but it's likely to be busier in that part of Italy too.

I also agree to add a day to Venice, as 2 days really means only one full day.

One thing to ask those who are more experts on Italy than I am - what is likely to be closed during the time you'll be there? Restaurants? Attractions?

Closed in August? Attractions - never; restaurants - hardly any. What is mostly closed are small shops and businesses, also some coffee bars in less touristy regions.

24th Aug arrive Treviso picked up by relatives stay their place outside Venice
25th Aug Train to Venice and stay 2 full days and nights
27th Aug Train to Florence arrive 1 pm. Look around city in afternoon. Stay 2 more full days and nights.
30th Aug Hire car for 2 nights. 1 day/night in Siena and 1 day/night San Gimignano
1st Sept Train to Rome from ...?
Spend 4 days/nights in Rome.

Leaving Umbria and more of Tuscany for another time.

One thing I am hesitant on is 3 nights in Florence. I could do 2 nights and have a feel for the place but that would only give me 1.5 days to look around. I could use the other day to explore Tuscany though...

For someone who likes pretty scenery more than art and museums, you've given yourself very little time in the countryside and a lot of time looking at art in museums. (Did the militant "must-do" sightseers get to you on those other travel forums? ;-) )

I suggest that you consider finding a nice play to stay in the Tuscan countryside that is not far from either Firenze or Siena. You can do them as day trips if you feel like it when you get there, or you can head off into the Tuscan and Umbrian countryside every day, where there is plenty of art in small churches and museums. Is there some reason you would want to hire a driver rather than renting a car?

My understanding is that the only time to see San Gim is at night, after the mobs leave, so it's a good instinct to spend a night there. You could then drop off a rental car in the nearest city and train to Rome.

nessundorma, your advice and persistance on this post has been outstanding and for that I thank you.

If I chose to base myself somewhere in the countryside close to Florence/Siena I would have to train it into Florence first right? Because I am coming from Venice it will already be a long enough trip with luggage then to change over trains and head to "a nice place to stay in the tuscan countryside". Sounds like too much travel for me. So this is why I am leaning towards travelling straight to Florence and settling for a couple of days.

Or do you recommend hiring a car from Venice and driving all the way to Tuscany. Will I lose of valuable time this way? Or will I gain a valuable experience? By the way, I will be driving.

Does a car give me more freedom and cut down on losing time?

quinny, this is a little disappointing. Much as nessundorma and I seem to love fighting a little, I think we actually have a common aim - preventing people from doing all the same "big 3", and making them curious to take in something else, too, and I thought we had done our best... nevertheless, have a nice trip!

I'm glad to be reassured I'm not a total pest, quinny!

It's a close call. There is much to be said for getting on a train, getting off and feeling settled in Firenze. It's hands down the best option if you think you will resent driving or feel terribly stressed by it.

However, most people don't (the road to Firenze from Venice is not difficult or particularly scenic). I don't think you would lose valuable time by renting a car out of Venice. And you might gain some relaxtion, both en route and because you'd be settling into the countryside.

A car definitely gives you more freedom and flexibility, and luggage is more manageable with a car.

So let's compare the options:

You rent a car in Venice in the morning of the 27th and head toward Firenze. Stop around noon for lunch in a nice small town. Leave by 2:30. You should be in your agriturismo/villa well before sunset. Relax by the POOL with a glass of wine. Dinner at the villa/agriturismo or in the nearest small town, preferably one you can walk to.

Now you have between the Aug 28th and Sept 1 (when you give up your car) to do what you want. That's five days by my count. I'd spend my first day in the countryside, seeing small towns and enjoying the scenery. If I was up to it, I'd make a foray into Firenze on Day 2. That leaves you day 3 to repeat Firenze if you liked the experience, then head to San Gim to spend the night. In the morning, drop your car off in Siena, tour the town, take the train to Rome. Arrive in Rome in time to check your bags and have a leisurely drink and dinner.

If you decided one day in Firenze was plenty, that leaves you an extra day for small towns or the Tuscan beach on Day 4, then head straight to San Gim for the overnight, dropping off your car in Siena by noon. Lunch and tour Siena, then to Rome

OR

Spend day 4 in Siena, your night in San Gim, and then drive through the Tuscan countryside to Orvieto in the morning and drop off your car in Orvieto. See the fantastic cathedral of Orvieto, have lunch, take the train to Rome (only an hour from Orvieto).

To compare: What happens if you do your revised plan?

27th Aug Train to Florence arrive 1 pm. Look around city in afternoon. Stay 2 more full days and nights.
30th Aug Hire car for 2 nights. 1 day/night in Siena and 1 day/night San Gimignano

Well, first of all, you gain the relaxation and security of being deposited into Firenze with somebody else doing the driving, and a Eurostar is quite comfortable.

Second, you get some sense right away whether you want to soak up Firenze non-stop. If you do, bingo! It was the right call.

But if you feel drawn to museum going in Firenze or walking through its Boboli gardens, you can guiltlessly spend the next two days visiting other places in Tuscany, provided you can get there. (Last minute car rental? Hire a driver? Buses to other towns and wineries? It can be done.) Then you have all those good restaurants in Firenze each night.

As for hiring a car in Firenze on Aug 30th to visit Siena for an overnight, it really doesn't make sense. You won't be able to park in Siena much closer than the train or bus stations. It means you'll be dragging your luggage quite a distance from your car to your hotel, unless you stay outside the city walls, which will be suburban, not country.

However, renting a car on Aug 30th does give you a convenient way to get to San Gim and on your way to Rome. Using your configuration, it makes sense to drive to Orvieto after leaving San Gim to drop off your car and train to Rome.

Hope that isn't too complicated to decipher!

franco,

perhaps we should throw ourselves across the train tracks between Venice and Firenze!

Anyway, you despair so easily! '-)

Ooops, quinny -- I made a typo!

The paragraph that begins:

"But if you feel drawn to museum going in Firenze or walking through its Boboli gardens -- "

shoud read instead:

"But if you DON'T feel drawn to museum going in Firenze or walking through its Boboli gardens, you can guiltlessly spend the next two days visiting other places in Tuscany, provided you can get there. ..."

Also, to clarify:

If you decide to rent a car Aug 30th for Siena and San Gim, I'm not suggesting you skip Siena. I'm just pointing out that it won't be much use to you in Siena, and something of a nuisance, but it will more easily get you to San Gim, and enable you to head off to Orvieto.

By the way, quinny, I keep having to remind myself you are planning a honeymoon.

Your highest priority should be avoiding arguments with your new spouse. And I'm not kidding. If either of you really doesn't want a lot of uncertainty about what you are doing each day, take the easy route of trains and bedding down in Firenze and taking the town at a relaxed pace, with walks through the gardens.

Ditto that advice if either of you is likely to blow after several wrong turns in the Italian countryside in a rental car. Driving in Italy is fun but wrong turns are inevitable, as is having to park in spaces the size of a closet.

At some point, you will have to decide -- and for Italy, there are always more things to do than you could possibly cram in during six months of touring. Once you decide on your itinerary and make your reservations, don't look back. Just go with the adventure. Whatever you pick, some of it will be brilliant and some will disappoint. You have each other! That's all that matters!