Disney called the 11/30 sailing
 

I just read in a Miami paper that Disney canceled the 11/30 sailing of the Disney Magic because of the virus.

sorry about the called , I meant canceled.

I think that is a smart call on Disney's part. I think some people on HAL are filing suit.

That some people are filing suite based on the fact that &quot;Holland American knew or should have known&quot; [from filing] only shows that something should be done to reform our tort system. The implication in Sandie's posting is the filing proves negligence....not true. Note the attorneys are from California..<BR>Wonder if they have the movie rights.<BR><BR>How could HAL keep healthy-appearing people off the boat as there are no symptoms during incubation. It's like suing the Super Bowl because it rained.<BR><BR>

I beleive this ship sailed many times over and over again with the same repeated issues. In Disneys case they were given a choice. Probably to CYOA. If you were given a choice, and then became sick if was your choice. Disney has all ready pulled the Magic out of the cruise circuit. HAL did not. I am not enforcing the filing of a suit. We all know people are &quot;sue crazy&quot; these days. Whether or not there is any validity to a suit is neither here nor there. I am simply stating some people have chose to do with the emcouragement of attorneys--no doubt.

I beleive the suit is based on the fact that HAL knew about the virus and allowed the ship to sail.<BR><BR>Who knows how successful the suit will be since all other outbreaks of the Norwalk virus in hotels, office buildings and on other cruise lines saling Alaska was stopped by cleaning.<BR><BR>Paul

Paul--read the filing, available on line. The cause of action is &quot;Holland American knew or should have known&quot;...key words being &quot;should have known.&quot; <BR><BR>HAL followed CDC recommendations from start to finish. CDC is the experts. So where is HAL's liability? <BR><BR>The cause of action is negligence in that HAL &quot;should have known&quot; the CDC is full of ...., and a bunch of California lawyers know best.<BR><BR>If American lawyers were faced with the prospect of paying the defendant's legal fees when they lose [as in many other countries] this type of frivolous suit would decrease. <BR><BR><BR><BR>

Hal did some things wrong. <BR><BR>On some of these cruises passangers were NOT notified of the virus being on board.<BR>On the fourth sick cruise, passangers were notified in the boarding terminal. There was no excuse for this. These passangers should have been notified way before this. <BR>The PR person from Hal said everyone choose to board. RIGHT!!! Hal refused to give anyone a refund.<BR>People were put off the ship and flown home. (I read that AA refused to allow them on a plane without a doctor's clearance note. I believe this was in Curacao). These people were not given a choice. Disney did not put anyone off their ship. They did give people a choice. <BR> <BR>The Amsterdam rep from Hal would not give future passangers any information except &quot;We are cleaning the ship&quot;. <BR><BR>I am not sue happy, but maybe there is some validity to this law suite for those that choose to sue.

Before joining any class-action suite, be sure to contact your own atttorney to see if you are liable for any costs.<BR><BR>Paul

This isn't any different that kindergartners having viruses that they pass around at school. It is a virus that gets passes from human to human - so a human brings it on board - it is not the fault of the cruise line.<BR><BR>It is unfortunate that this is happening, but it isn't anything new - it's always been a problem - the media is just making more of it than before.<BR><BR>I am sympathetic - no one wants to get sick on vacation - however, come on people! Suing for getting a stomach virus? What's next? It's ridiculous and the attorneys should have to pay court costs for even taking the case. It is frivolous in my opinion.<BR>

Probably won't be long until someone pops up on a t.v. talk show telling how horrible it was.<BR>More than the vulture attorneys who take these cases, you have to blame the juries who award damages for these silly lawsuits.<BR>In the end, it will be the cruising public who has to pay for these suits in the form of higher rates.

How about Ottawa where a strain of virus that they believe is Norwalk is spreading through hospitals. One hospital closed. Where is CNN?<BR><BR>Do people know that 3,744 cases of dengue fever have been detected in Mexico this year? Where is CNN?<BR><BR>Doggone, it's not safe to go anywhere.<BR><BR>I wonder if CNN is going to report when the ships are sailing virus free? Of course not. It's not their kind of news.<BR><BR>Paul<BR>

I am in the process of booking a March cruise. I would not consider HAL, not because the virus invaded their ships, but because of how they handled the problem and the communications once the virus was confirmed. Shameful customer service. Shameful corportate culture.

Hi John,<BR><BR>What happened was quite unfortunate. HAL certainly did not ignore the passengers that became ill. HAL is not NCL. Have you heard something different?<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>

My, my, my. People who weren't on the cruise or sick are certainly judgmental of those who were and are plenty mad about it. Lawsuits being frivolous or not certaintly depend on &quot;who's ox is getting gored.&quot;

Sally -- The issue is not &quot;whose ox is being gored&quot; but one of greed and common sense. The idea of suing over a few days lost vacation [no matter how distressful] is foolish. <BR><BR>Your attitude is the traditional &quot;me first&quot; without any thought of consequences, impact on others, or validity of feeling. Just ME ME ME!

Grumpy since money is not an issue maybe you would like to fork over the cash to all the people that have suffered the loss of money. Or maybe we should use some common sense and let the companies that have the money stop hiding behind foreign registry and step up to the plate and pay up. <BR><BR>When the big &quot;Tylenol Scare&quot; happened years ago they pulled all their product at great expense. It turned out to be one of the greatest marketing coups in their favor in history. I trust them because they looked out for ME and not themselves.

We recently sold our boat, sailing the Great Lakes for the last seven years. We have had many guests on board who have gotten seasick. Once sick, you throw up over and over again until all you have is dry heaves. Could some of this be seasickness? Who determined the cases to be Norwalk Virsus? One doctor on board? How many were hangovers? Have the sick been interveiwed to determine if there was a common thread? What about the water holding tanks on board? Maybe it is a virus, but I think it is easy to say &quot;it's a virus&quot; instead of really investigating.

OK, Use([email protected]), explain to me exactly how the passengers have lost money due to the Norwalk virus?<BR><BR>It is the cruise lines who have refunded the cost of cruises, gave them 50% off the cost of future cruises, and taken ships out of service. You are saying passengers who came down with an illness have lost money, or had an unpleasant time which they deserve compensation.<BR><BR>And why do you think in your wildest imagination that &quot;money is not an issue&quot;?<BR><BR>From what I can see, no passenger has suffered a financial loss. They purchased passage, and they received such. Maybe it was not their dream trip but they got what they paid for.<BR><BR>What does foreign registry have to do with anything? The cruise operating companies are headquartered in the US, and listed on the NY stock exchange. If not, the California lawyers could not sue them.<BR><BR>I know, I know--don't confuse your beliefs with the facts.<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>

Grumpy, you may as well talk to the wall. There is a smell of money in the water and the sharks and their attorneys are starting to circle.<BR>Anyone who says &quot;it's not the money&quot; is full of bull***t and they know it. It IS the money. <BR>Another poster was right in that some of these supposed illnesses were probably hangovers. I think it would be neat if these &quot; suits&quot; backfired and the cruise lines sued some of these people for bringing this &quot;virus&quot; on board, knowing they were getting sick, then spreading it around.<BR>Little wonder that some of the world hates Americans.I would rather see an outright crook anyday than some of these people who profess to be fine upstanding citizens, then try to hop on something like this to make a few bucks or get a free cruise. At least a guy with a gun in your face while he takes your wallet is upfront about it!!<BR>

Grumpy as your name so well denotes. If the cruise companies knew there was a risk that their passengers would get sick then they should have:<BR><BR>a. warned them of potential risk<BR><BR>b. gave them the option to reschedule<BR><BR>c. refunded their money in full.<BR><BR>As with most dogmatists you skirted around the example I gave you. Why some may ask? Because you can't defend against the it. Tylenol rather then jeopardize their relationship with the public decided it was better to lose some money at the time then suffer the long term affects. What was originally just common sense turned out to be one of the most talked about marketing windfalls in business history. Tylenol has an even better reputation than it did before because it decided to look out for the best interest of its customers and not itself. The cruise lines should have thought of this.<BR><BR>And it is not only the money that is an issue but the &quot;oppurtunity cost&quot; involved. that means the lost oppurtunity they could have realized had they explored another vacation had they been properly warned.<BR><BR>So do I believe the cruise lines knew about the risks in advance. Yes, by their actions and their fellow cruise lines I think they had full knowledge in plenty of time to warn their patrons. Their greed dictated their actions (with the exception of some smart lines). <BR><BR>When you can present an intelligent rebutle I would look forward to hearing it.<BR><BR>Being grumpy, old, and pushy does nt work as a counterpoint.<BR><BR>Alot of companies are listed on the NYSE that does not mean you can get to them litigiously.

I believe most all agree the cruise lines are doing the best they can. It is an unfortunate circumstance. Why shouldn't the cruise lines believe the virus would cease as it does every year in Alaska? It did not, therefore they are taking the advice of the CDC and are cleaning the ships. They are also offering restitution to the passengers who could prove they became ill with this Norwalk Like Virus. <BR><BR>The only other alternative is for all cruise lines to shut down completely. Is this a viable option? <BR><BR>I do not hear of any news reports of the ships that have been cleaned. Probably no one will hear, since CNN and others only report sensational bad news. <BR><BR>Paul

Use([email protected])-- You are relying upon two concepts to further your &quot;evil cruise lines&quot; argument. The first is the legal concept of &quot;adequate notice&quot; and the other is the economic argument of &quot;opportunity costs.&quot; Both are too complex to explain here. <BR><BR>As to your other arguments, they are covered by the contract we agree to when purchasing a cruise. <BR><BR>That the cruise lines did not have a crisis management procedure in place is not arguable.<BR><BR>My point is simply no irrevocable damage was done to those who fell ill, and therefore it is only greed that brings the lawyers into play.<BR>

I see grumpy so being the master of the space time continuim, you can give these people back the vaction that they lost? <BR><BR>I see Use's point. You can't offer a resonable counter point so you claim that it is too involved.

Oh ok--Your sarcasm is noted. Beam me up Scotty!<BR><BR>My thought--I imagine you believe you are entitled to everything because you take up space on this planet. I say absolutely &quot;NO.&quot; <BR><BR>&quot;My point is simply no irrevocable damage was done to those who fell ill, and therefore it is only greed that brings the lawyers into play.&quot;<BR><BR>If I had tried to explain the concepts that are involved here, I would have been flamed for being a snob. My assumption is when you use a concept, you know what it means. The initial poster did not.<BR><BR><BR>

I am a business major and &quot;Use&quot; was right on target. His/her application of the general priciples involved were very accurate.<BR><BR>The tylenol example is right out of most major marketing text books.<BR><BR>And I don't see how losing your vacation cannot be considered irrevocable. Can you get it back? No! What is so difficult about that concept.<BR><BR>If the cruise lines knew there was a risk that their patrons would get ill, then they are responsible. Plain and simple.<BR><BR>Maybe Grumpy you need to take a little refresher in Marketing and Good Faith.<BR><BR>Or maybe you are just a Grumpy old man like your name denotes.<BR><BR>Either way this will give a black eye to crusie lines every where.

Hey student--I chose the handle of Grumpy because I become tired of ignorance shown on many of these boards.<BR><BR>FYI, I need not a refresher in marketing. I am a VP of Marketing in a Fortune 500 company with over 350 sales persons and 40 marketing team people working with me. Yes, I am over 40, but then not exactly an old fart.<BR><BR>I also teach marketing, marketing research, sales management and advertising as an adjunct professor at a major [you know...hard to get into] university.<BR><BR>May I suggest you consult your text book on law under the title of &quot;constructive notice&quot; and your finance book under the topic of &quot;alternative opportunity&quot; Then get back to me.<BR><BR>

Hey Grumpy, that doesn't mean you know what you are doing, it just means you are good at BS. I have seen many people in corporate and academic positions of high value that have no idea what they are talking about.<BR><BR>As far as Fortune 500 companies, most of of you are more criminally incompetent than a someone robbing a donut shop.<BR><BR>By the way I teach as well, and I am tired of the ignorance perpetuated by people like you!<BR><BR>Hold companies accountable for their inaction/actions. but you wouldn't want that since you are part of the corporate machine/greed that you protest about.

Just wondering how many of the poor deprived-of-their-vacation because of the cruise lines negligence passengers smoke?<BR>I personally know a couple who were on a ship that had some allegedly ill people. This couple has bellyached for two weeks about it and have commented on how their health was jeoparized by the cruise line.<BR>Funny thing they are so concerned about their health. They both smoke like chimneys. I'm sure the cartons of cigarettes they smoked that week did them more harm than anything else, aside from maybe the booze they filtered through their kidneys.

Ohpulease--This is absolute nonsense. Big corporations are not inherently evil. <BR><BR>Your comment &quot;that doesn't mean you know what you are doing, it just means you are good at BS. I have seen many people in corporate and academic positions of high value that have no idea what they are talking about&quot; is the thinking of a person who is full of envy. Sour grapes.<BR><BR>Further &quot;As far as Fortune 500 companies, most of of you are more criminally incompetent than a someone robbing a donut shop&quot; is just plain stupid. Where do you think the money comes that pays your salary? Jobs created by the evil companies! <BR><BR>Further &quot;I am tired of the ignorance perpetuated by people like you!&quot; As a teacher, you should be more specific in telling us about the &quot;ignorance [being] perpetuated.&quot;

Methinks though dost protest too much Grumpy! Large corporations have been inherently evil since their conceptualization. Most of them hide behind the coporate blanket of a seperate entity.<BR><BR>It is nice to see that Disney had the gumption to act properly. It is a pity you can't see that and the others for what they are.<BR><BR>Maybe you should be more specific yourself instead of dancing around the subject.

Okay -- let's all clear our throats and <BR>sing &quot;Ode to Corporate Greed&quot; ---<BR><BR> Robbers and cheaters<BR> That's what they are.<BR> Big corporations are meanies!<BR><BR> Our nose pressed to the window,<BR> We drool from afar.<BR> Just poor lil whiney weenies.<BR><BR>All those who eschew the cut-throat marketplace and instead spend their lives in the &quot;noble&quot; professions (such as teaching, medicine, etc) -- just remember. Corporations pay taxes ... their employees pay taxes on their salaries...their stockholders pay taxes.<BR><BR>Those taxes support our schools (and teachers), our hospitals, our parks, our highway system -- and lest we forget, the defense of our country.<BR><BR><BR>

Very interesting thread. the problem is no one is winning. It is a very big stupid jumble. We're now into corporate greed and evil.<BR><BR>The facts are Disney did not pull their ship after the first virus outbreak. They cleaned their ship as instructed. Exactly the same as Holland America. So why is Disney better? Carnival cleaned their ship and P&amp;O cleaned their ship. The virus will diappear same as it does in Alaska every year.<BR><BR>Paul