What in heaven's name are you trying to say? The staff is happier ... duh... hello.<BR><BR>And since when did the passenger ever have control over the service?<BR><BR>Paul

Of course the staff is happier. Now no matter what kind of service they perform they are still getting tipped.<BR><BR>If I stand at a bar and lay a twenty on the table during an open bar I will get a lot better and faster service. If the bartender knows no matter how fast or slow he/she responds their tip will be the same because of an open bar what is their motivation to take care of me?<BR><BR>You control service through giving a better, lower, or no tip. Money can be a great motivator used properly.<BR><BR>Duh, hello. What don't you understand?

Thanks for clarifying your interesting management concept for silly me. And all this time I thought it was my management requirements/oversight, not tips, that determined the level/quality of service being provided to my customers. Greedy me, but in my bar I would simply fire the bozo who didn't properly service my customers. And that's what would happen on any cruise ship, regardless of how tips are paid.

Y you must run a taught ship. Good for you. But you can't be foolish enough to think that money doesn't motivate people to do a better job. Otherwise all you will get is the bare minimum.<BR><BR>Oh, and I ran a very successful bar until it was sold for over five times its original cost. So my management techniques couldn't have been too bad.

Of course money is a great motivator. But you and I both know that standards of service are set by management. Everyone has a bad day, and isolated incidents of poor service can be overlooked. But since neither of us would tolerate ongoing lousy service by our employees, why would a hotel manager tolerate service deficiancies on a cruise ship, if he wants to retain his well paying job? Also let's not forget that the service staff on these cruise ships are well compensated by THEIR own standards. These are considered well paid jobs in their own countries, and are coveted. That accounnts for the steady supply of people willing to do this type work. People want to hold their jobs, And failure to provide service and meet management standard always results in a job termination. This is a complex issue, but bottom line, service standards are set by management. All of these different cruise lines provide a specific level of service. This level of service is usually dependent on the number of staff to passenger, training of staff, and quality of supervision. These issues are determined by the target market and price of the cruise. If as Lew claims in his original post tipping in advance ensures poor service because there is no incentive for superior performance, then how do you explain Crystal, Silverseas or Seabourne? You just cannot compare Crystal to Carnival, Silversea to Royal Carribean.

Since I started this, maybe I can close this down!<BR><BR>Y's point about management is absolutely correct.<BR><BR>Staffing ratios on HAL and Seabourn are about the same as Carnival. On HAL and Seabourn, first level supervisors are omnipresent--they are walking around, talking with staff, pointing out needs. They work as hard as the staff to insure customer satisfaction and many times stand in for the staff when things need doing. <BR><BR>One man's experience...on the Carnival Legend in August, 3 bartenders were working the Atrium bar. Not one took my order...but chatted amongst themselves. On HAL in October, two servers worked the Ocean bar...we couldn't sit down without being asked if we wanted something. If we wnated water, they brought it...we did not always have to order a drink.<BR><BR>But on Carnival, tips are mandatory...on HAL, tips are voluntary.<BR><BR>Enough said?

Don't kid yourself - tips are mandatory on HAL as well. The reason they state tips are &quot;not required&quot; is because they are built into the price of the cruise. I would like to see all of the cruise lines do this. Quote prices with tips included and drinks included. Work the ships like the all inclusive resorts. I know a few of the upscale lines are like this - but I think they should all go that way. Then there is no debate - for us or the crew.

Wow! That's the first intelligent comment I have heard come from Peter in months.<BR><BR>I agree stop playing games with the price of cruises and just price them like AI's.

If the mass market lines (CCL,NCL,RCCL Princess, Century, HAL) went to an all inclusive concept, they would suffer such a massive loss of business as to render them bankrupt in a short period of time. And the entire cruise industry would go down the tubes in a few years, with only a few high end lines still operating. There just aren't enough people willing or able to pay the extra $$$ up front to sail Crystal, Silverseas, Seabourne, Raddison or any other all inclusive type line. I certainly would not. I prefer to pay as I go. Then all deceisions are mine to make.<BR>Lew, get over your Legend cruise. That was an inaugural/shakedown cruise. HAL had similar problems on the recent Prinsendam shakedown cruise. I don't see people who were on that cruise repeatedly bemoaning that experience, or claiming this prooves that HAL provides a lousy experience. HAL has subsequently cleaned up after the Prinsendam shakedown cruise debacle, and I can guarantee that if you stood at the same attrium bar on a current Legend cruise, you would find a different service experience. And when I last compared prices for a balcony cabin, Carnival Legend with an extended balcony was about $500 PP less than the comparable BB cabin on HAL's Zuiderdam, and perhaps $1000 PP less than on a Seabourne ship. Could it be that this price difference accounts for a difference in levels of service afforded by each cruise line? There are enough choices currently available to satisfy everyone's unique desires for a cruise experience. Peter loves RCCL, and that's great. Lew will be happy on Crystal, and that's great. Why should there be only one or two cruise experiences available to the public? That was the brilliance of Mickey Arrisson's original vision back in the early 1970's. And by the way, my own experience on HAL is that tipping is not included, and in fact is expected.

I know of the Princendam problems...I was there. But the attitude was different.<BR><BR>The concept of price determining service level is only valid if that is what you expect and are willing to accept.<BR><BR>Compare service levels in the hotels of Cancun marketed to Gringos to those of Acapulco marketed to Argentines and Brazillians [same chain, same management company], and you will see the difference.

What are you saying is that actual service problems on HAL can be overlooked or don't matter, because their &quot;attitude&quot; was better? That's your perception, not mine. You seem too willing to overlook or absolve service problems on HAL, but not on Carnival. And I do realize that these problems on Prinsendam and Legend were not the norm, merely abberations due to the nature of a shakedown cruise. <BR>Lew, I'm saying that service levels, for a variety of reasons, are determined by management.

Y - why are you saying the average cruiser couldn't afford the all inclusive concept? Everyone is currently paying the tips anyway so its not extra. For the cruise line to break even on the drinks,they could chargedevery passenger an extra $100. So if the average cruise today for a seven day inside is $500, with the tips and drinks it would be around $700. Thats not bad!

Peter, I said &quot;willing or able.&quot; IMO, one size does not fit all, and not everyone tips the same amount, consumes the same amount of alcoholic beverage etc. Just watch how many fewer ships RCCL will have saling if they went all inclusive.

The difference in the Legend and Prinsendam experiences was on the Legend the crew was surly, the Prinsendam wasn't ready. Problems can be forgiven when there is an attempt to overcome them.<BR><BR>My point is management mandates service levels based on what customers will accept. If customers continue to buy cruises with mediocre service, then management will not require more than mediocre service. The customer not only get what he pays for; he gets what he expects.<BR><BR>The bottom line is mandatory tips are seen by the crew as part of their salary, and as such they do not feel obligated to offer more than minimal service. Case in point: In my opinion, the attentiveness of the QE2 grill class staff has decayed since the initiation of mandatory tipping.<BR><BR>

Lew, I think we agree. Management mandates service standards based on what customers will accept. Pax on CCL, RCI, NCL, Princess et al are willing to accept a lesser level of service in return for lower prices. Pax who sail on Crystal, Silverseas, etc are willing to pay more for what they perceive as a different standard. It all goes back to freedom of choice. That's why the industry is booming. By the way, few of us can relate (or even care) as to whether grill staff standards are higher or lower on the QE2.

&quot;By the way, few of us can relate (or even care) as to whether grill staff standards are higher or lower on the QE2.&quot; -- OUCH!<BR><BR>I was making the point that even on Cunard's grill class where fine service is legendary that it has changed with the advent of mandatory tipping.

Once again, that's your opinion. But let's just agree to disagree.

Having been on ships of both types, let me say that taking the worry about doing a good job off the backs of the service providers leads to average service. Keeping them anxious about their tips makes them give better service. The thing most service providers complain about is that some guests don't tip at all; I've heard that on some lines, over 20% don't tip. Hence the mandatory tipping. <BR>Why tip at all? Simply, to improve service. Crew lives on their tips, it's certainly not their cruise pay. If mandatory tipping results in lower levels of service, I say get rid of it. Let the market decide, and let the sapient cruise consumer reward those who provide exceptional service.