Local Vendors
 

There are so many posts here about not wanting to be "harassed" by local vendors.

This is probably my grumpy Monday morning post, but think about this for a minute.

How many here make their living in sales and marketing ? How many times have we all been annoyed by the telemarketing calls ? How many of us have sold Girl Scout cookies or candy for worthy causes ? And the list of examples goes on.

Why is it different for someone living in the Caribbean and trying to make a living, than it is for anyone, anywhere ?

There is always that polite, "no thank you", or perhaps the thought that you might be able to contribute, in some small way, by making a purchase.

Take a walk in any major US city and you will be approached JUST for money.

The vendors who "harass" are offering you a product, most of them made through their own labor. If we are lucky enough to visit, we should think about all the residents and what their lives are like.

Just something to think about...I hope.

Marion

Good point Marion!;)


Christie

Marion,

This is always an interesting topic.

For the most part, I think people who are bothered by vendors in the Caribbean are people who have not done much travel to the region before and don't realize what life is actually like for the majority of people who live there.

They've been looking at the glossy brochures that show empty beaches and smiling locals bearing rum punches on their heads while they do the limbo.

They don't know about the double-digit unemployment on some islands, the poverty, the dependence on tourism, the difficulties and the hardships that many local populations deal with every day.

People who HAVE traveled to the region and ventured outside the whitewashed walls of their AI's or resorts have a better understanding of what you are trying to convey Marion.

They buy YET ANOTHER head-bobbing turtle or yarn bracelet in Mexico, or a coconut-shell purse or Rasta-colored earrings or a pareo, etc. etc. etc. they KNOW they will never wear when they get home because they are spreading that wealth around a little bit. (Not to mention meeting some absolutely fantastic people along the way.)

And then again, there are always going to be those who want their vacation to be perfect and stress-free.

A small percentage of people will actually be so elitist and obnoxious that they truly believe they should be "left alone" to enjoy their vacation in Disneyesque splendor. (Never mind that they are in ANOTHER COUNTRY! :)

I guess it all boils down to an individual's exposure to and compassion for the situation.

Just my .02 ;>

Diana,
I learned of some of the "hardships" that people were having on my recent trip to St John.One girl that I talked to said that it was tough finding a job (in Sept.)because it was slow season and people were having to let people go because it was too slow.I felt sorry for her because she was stressed out on how she was going to pay rent and eat..so I gave her some money.

Another guy was let go because of someone who stirred up trouble who had just moved to St John and that guy got the guy who was let goes job.

Alot of the true locals were having a hard time finding a job because of people moving there and taking the jobs.I found it very sad and can understand the frustration they must feel.

Christie

As a counterpoint, soliciting like that is illegal and strongly enforced in the Cayman Islands... there are no street vendors and you will never be approached on the beach by a vendor.

Just something to factor into your vacation considerations !

Diana,

Your 2 cents is always worth at least a dollar or a 100 :-)

I live in a *tourist* town and see the attitude of my *fellow US citizens* when they visit here. They think we couldn't survive without their tourist dollars...and many leave their manners and courtesy at home.

My point, if there was one ;-), was to think about what happens *here* and what seems to be unacceptable once we are *there*.

We are guests in another country and should be gracious and economically supportive to our hosts. And our hosts are not the hotel owners, but rather the locals who welcome us with broad smiles to their home. The ones, who make our beds, prepare and serve our food and drinks and ask us to look at some items they have for sale. It's really a simple concept, it might just need a little re-thinking :-)

Marion

Christie, What you have described about the (mostly) Americans taking all the jobs is the main reason we did not care for St John and won't go back.

Islands which are not US territories/protectorates almost always have controls in place to keep that from happening.

(You can see my rant re this in my 2003 BVI's/USVI's trip report.)

Really sad situation there...

Tom, Way to shamelessly plug the island where you have business interests at the expense of a region-wide (EXCEPT for the Cayman's, of course) issue.

Thanks Marion! :) I grew up in a tourist town (beach) too, and the behavior of some of the visitors was truly amazing.

I always try to talk to as many people (both tourists and locals) as possible when traveling. If you are candid and receptive, it's amazing what people will share with you about their impressions of the behaviors of fellow travelers.

Americans have a (largely-deserved) rep for being ethnocentric and thoughtless visitors abroad. (In our defense, I've also seen people of MANY nationalities behave obnoxiously over-seas.)

Your point that people are guests in another land is absolutely correct. I've found that it's normally the locals with manners which far surpass those of the vacationers.

I think the reason why the no vendors on the beach thing is such an issue for some people is b/c many people live in suburbs and exurbs. In those types of environments, it is much more homogeneous and encountering poverty, especially soliciting, is rare. I live in a suburb which has a pretty good average income. Many people that live in a place like that don't want to go on vacation and deal with things that they don't have to deal with at home. For many, it's depressing and disconcerting.

People picture their vacations as completely stress free and the vendors don't fit in with that notion.

I personally don't mind vendors at all, and would love to go to a place like Jamaica. My husband, however, has made it clear that he does not want to deal with that on a beach vacation.

Mah,

I certainly respect your husband's wishes and those of others who prefer to be isolated from reality while on vacation. We all walk in different shoes and certainly have the right to a *comfort zone*.

I just *needed* to go on record for those who might be persuaded to think differently.

If you miss out on interaction with locals, whether vendors or resort staff, you've missed a lot, IMHO.

PEACE...and hope you are recovering from Katrina. Your city, suburbs and exburbs continue to be in my prayers and in my ongoing donations. It's going to be a long recovery and I hope we don't forget that.

Marion

Thanks Marion. My husband has a different comfort zone b/c he didn't travel as much as a child as I did. He really didn't get into travelling that much until we started dating. Now he loves it as much as I do.

I wish I could convince him to go to Jamaica. After you wrote about the Jamaica Inn I went on their website and was blown away. I also looked on tripadvisor and they are one of the top hotels in the whole country. Did you do a package deal with food, or did you elect to do lodging only?

I'm trying to figure out where we're going to visit next. There are so many places that I want to go so it's hard to narrow it down. We are going to buy a new home in Sept./Oct. so we'll probably go somewhere right after that. I'd like to keep it on a budget b/c I want to buy some new furniture. Do you have any suggestions? I love the idea of somewhere that we could look at waterfalls and do ziplines.

New Orleans is getting back slowly. Traffic is so bad, and there are so many people from Mississippi in the Northshore suburbs. We had a great time this weekend b/c there was the Three Rivers Art Festival in downtown Covington with artists from across the world. Things like that help make life seem normal. I'm planning a surprise weekend trip to the Dunleith Plantation in Natchez, Mississippi for December. I've never been to Natchez, although I've heard it's wonderful at Christmas time.

Interesting thread.

I for one, have never felt "bothered" or threatened by local vendors trying to sell their goods or services. On occaision, we have purchased a few small items here & there. If you are not interested, a simple "no thank you" usually works, but not all of the time. There were a few vendors in St Lucia that were very pushy. Upon trying a "no thank you" a few of them grew angry, and started spouting off with crude language. So on the other side of the fence, I can see where some folks feel threatened or annoyed.

I also am not about to spend money on something I really don't want. I understand about trying to help a few folks out by contributing to the local economy. But after spending thousands on accomodations & food, I find it hard to feel guilty because I choose not to buy a $2 trinket.

I think Diana hit the nail on the head, by saying that it really depends how much traveling you've done. For someone who has never experienced being approached by a stranger trying to sell something, it's easy to see why they might be uncomfortable.

It all boils down to treating others politely. If you are rude, chances are good that you'll get the same back in return, and rightfully so, as you probably deserve it. Go out of your way to be friendly, and the return favor is likely....no matter where you are. Well, except maybe Massachusetts....LOL....I know, I live here!!

Mah,

Sounds like you have some wonderful Christmas plans ! I often think that New England is over-rated, and remember fondly the wonderful traditions in "Steel Magnolias". OK...I just plain loved the movie..Miss Merry Christmas and all :-)

As far as Jamaica Inn, or any other Jamaican destination, I'd give it some time. You can only roll a stone up a mountain for a certain distance :-) And I'd hate to see you plan a wonderful trip and then worry every second. Been there, done that.

Maybe consider Nevis ? Lots of options, in all price ranges.

I'll be there in February and will report. I know you do lots of research, but first hand is a good thing.

Take care and look forward to the holiday season !

Marion

Ahh, Marion. Time and again you've proved you're a woman after my own heart. I checked online this morning and there was not much new of interest. Checking back in before dinner I now see that I've missed out on this lovely discussion.

I am very thankful that I have many children in my life who love the bobbing head turtles and bead necklaces and allegedly hand-carved sculptures that bear trademarks on the bottom. Most of the time I've enjoyed my interactions with the varied vendors I've met and they have certainly made my vacations more colorful.

I find myself getting more easily frustrated with Caribbean newbies who worry about "safety issues" and "Vendors" in the same breath. It seems amusing at best and offensive at worst.

Diana, I hope you enjoyed your Grenadines trip. I'd love to read about it if and when you have the time to put something together.

Yes ej, taking the time to speak with the vendors is priceless. I'm not a very *crafty* person, so I am easily impressed with the talent of those who are.

My house is filled with reminders of my travels, and if some are *kitchy*, all the better. All have a story of a local artisan. How lucky am I, to have these treasures and to have had the conversations with the artists :-)

Yup....lucky !

Marion

Our store in St. John was looking for help in September & got no applicants. We've had ads in the paper for a few weeks now on St. Thomas & only 1 applicant.

When I was Asst. Manager at what is now Marriott's Frenchman's Reef, the then General Manager could not for the life of him get management hired from the local populace. No business owner in his right might would want to pay moving & travel expenses to bring in off-islanders. It's improved somewhat but at the hotel, nobody wanted to BE managers except for a small percentage.

The choice jobs here are for the government which is the largest employer by far. Why? Tons of holidays, vacation, etc. Jobs in the tourism-related fields which is the next highest employer mean no holidays off. When I started at the hotel it was a 6 day work week which OFTEN stretched into 7 plus double shifts. I have not had a Christmas or Thanksgiving off in 23 years. At the hotel, the hourly workers were protected by unions. We managers just worked our behinds off.

I have a right to be here. I earn my keep & this is a US territory. Beach vendors here aren't REAL plentiful unlike some of the poorer islands. I've never seen one hassle somebody who just said "No, thanks." I hope I never do. I also pay US taxes on every nickel I earn.

And all it takes to get a work permit in Sint Maarten is knowing whom to bribe. I suspect that's pretty common in a lot of places. The BVI is pretty strict.

I should clarify about not being able to recruit management from the local populace. That has improved in the last 10 years. Before, their coworkers gave them a really hard time if they got promoted & made it difficult enough that most didn't want to.

Also, now there's a 5 day work week (for the most part) but still, forget about holidays off.

Excellent post Marion. Brings to mind that Rosemary Clooney song from White Christmas "Counting Your Blessings"
Much is what you have been exposed to or willing to be exposed to that makes the difference in attitude.

Diana, how was the Grenadines trip. !8 more days til SVG for me!

Sandy

Diana,
I did make it a point to buy souveniers(sp?) from the locals in Cruz Bay park while in St John.They had some really nice things that were handmade..I bought my sons necklaces that a guy handmade.I bought a bracelet for myself that is made of beads and shells and also is handmade.I did go in some of the shops but decided to buy from the locals who handmade there stuff.It had more feeling knowing that someone "handmade" it rather than had it shipped in and marked up the price.

Mah,
My husband is the same as yours..he had not traveled that much until we got married.He has been back and forth about going to Jamaica..I hope to talk him into going oneday or I will have to go with someone else ;) maybe my mom.

Christie ((R))

Oh Sandy,

Your Rosemary Clooney reference did make me smile :-)

I think it is about attitude, an open heart and acceptance of things outside our narrow world. If we don't want to learn, why would we travel ?

Pollyanna..I mean Marion :-)

Marion,
I agree..I am one who travels to learn about other ways of life..but not everyone does.Some people travel with the 'ugly american' attitude that gives us who want to learn...a bad name.

Christie

Christy,

yes I hope that I can convince my husband to go to Jamaica at some point. The short travel time, good value, and combination of lushness and good beaches is to me the major advantages of Jamaica.

I've been reading with curiousity your take on St. John. That will probably be our next extended Caribbean vacation (I'm thinking of doing a long weekend trip to Punta Cana or the Riviera Maya in the early summer). What was your impression of the Westin on the island? That will probably be where we'd stay just b/c you can get fantastic deals on it on priceline.

Marion- did you ever end up going to Harbour Island? I've noticed that several of the hotels on the island have raised their rates.

Mah,
The Westin looks nice but there beach is manmade so definitely go to other beaches while there.It is also convenient to Cruz Bay and the North Shore beaches..which are beautiful!:)

I would like to stay at Caneel Bay Resort next time we go..it's expensive but has a very nice property with some of the nicest beaches onsite.

I love St John and feel that it has some of the most picture perfect beaches that I have ever seen.

Christie

I would love to stay at Caneel too. A girl that I went to school with went there on her honeymoon and her pictures were unreal. However, at this point in our young lives I am too cheap to pay Caneel prices. If I got a good rate at Westin (and took a jeep to the other beaches) I would probably spend half as much as I'd spend at Caneel (and that would let us take another vacation that year!).

My husband always comments about how when we first started dating (our first year of law school) I used to be so carefree about how much things cost. Not having money in law school was great in the long term b/c I've grown so much more thrifty (he calls it cheap!).

Mah,

Harbour Island is still on my list !

I imagine that you and your husband would love it !


Wantsomesun gives the best information here...but you know that :-)

Have you researched Long Bay Hotel in Antigua ? It is one of EJ's favorites and is always highly rated on Trip Advisor.

The smaller, family owned resorts are my favorites. They offer a completely different feeling. A feeling I think you and your husband would enjoy.

Just some *planning* ideas for you :-)

Marion

Marion,

I have looked at Antigua but it takes SO long to get there from New Orleans. If we had a lot of time to take vacations that wouldn't be a problem. But with work it is hard for us to take off more than 7 days at a time, so Antigua would eat up 2 days travel time.

We actually almost went to Harbour Island (Coral Sands) intead of Turks and Caicos in May. We opted for Turks b/c the Sands had 2 nights free.

I'm always making little dream lists in my head for places we'll travel next. My ideas for next year are: Anguilla (Frangipani), St. John (Westin or Villa), or St. Kitts (Marriott to use points). Those are all undecided.

However there are two trips that happen every year- a long beach weekend in the gulf coast of florida (perdido key), and a girl's trip with my friends from college. i'd like to convince them to do charleston & savannah.

as you can tell, i should spend more time working and less time planning! if i won the lottery tomorrow i would have no problem never working again and leading a life of leisure!

I just want to add to my earlier post.. the reason we in Cayman don't allow street vendors and solicitation is simply cultural... this is turning into an interesting thread about what people want out of travel, but as regards discovering other cultures, hear in Cayman our people are generally quite, conservative and reserved, hence they would not be comfortable with street vendors aggressively hawking their wares, just as we are serious about "no shoes, no shirt, no service signs etc".

Having said all that, personally I love to haggle with street vendors... from Negril to Beersheva (where I did my Xmas shopping in a nomads market many years ago) !

MarionCK: I agree with you to a certain point. Let's be honest now, there are vendors out there who don't take just a "no thank you". Some can be more persistent than others. I think that if someone is not use to that, they won't like dealing with it (it could be that it makes them uncomfortable or they just don't like it, period).
I'm of Caribbean descent and have lived the first 16 years of my life in an African country. Let me tell you something, Caribbean vendors have nothing on African vendors in terms of persistence. So nothing phases me, but I can't expect someone who hasn't had my experience to feel the same way. Case in point, my husband. He's a true born and bred New Yorker. Big guy, no one can scare him, no one can make him uncomfortable (really a teddy bear inside :-) ), but do not get in his face. And he believes if he tells you "no thank you" once, he shouldn't have to repeat himself.
We were in St. Lucia a few years ago and the vendors bugged the heck out of him (I can attest that they were persistent). I had to explain to him that it's sort of a cultural thing and we're on vacation and just chill. My husband is not ignorant, he's not mean, he gets it...this is just his temperament. Those telemarketers you mentioned, the ones who call at home right here in the U.S., they piss him off with their persistence just as much as the persitent vendors in whatever country we are.
All this blablabla on my part :-) to say that vendors are not all wonderful and they're not all awful. At the end of the day, people are different and will react differently to situations for whatever reason (and yes it could be due to fear or ignorance). But I think it's just too easy to put it all in a box.
People should just thoroughly research their vacation. That should dramatically increase their chance of picking the right island for them because it will fit their needs and likes. And we can all be happy :-)
I wish I were going to some (any) sunny beach right now.

Good points and thread, Marion! Especially good to read if you are a first time traveler to the Caribbean. It may help people get the theory that the beach vendors have to make a living too, just like you and I do.

Tom,

I'm not sure this is about what people want in travel. My point was what people should expect in travel.

I'm somewhat sure that even in beautiful Cayman, people might expect to be approached to buy something.

I was just asking people to examine their level of comfort/discomfort with what seems like an ordinary sale of product to me.

Commerce does make the world go 'round...yes ? For those who have traveled in Asian countries, street stalls are common. In the Caribbean the beaches are the public markets. In either locale the consumer has the right to say yes or no.

I guess I'm just tired of reading posts that want PERFECTION in the Caribbean...perfect weather, perfectly crystal, clear water, perfect sand, perfect meals, kids/no kids, and keep the imperfect locals at a distance.

Just think about a Fodor's board for Caribbean residents thinking about coming to this country. What perfection could we provide ?

Worthy of thought...I hope :-)

Marion

Living in the Caribbean myself I can relate to both the necessity and the annoyance of local vendors.

I have bought many things from local vendors over the years and also had many wonderful experiences with them.

On the other hand, however, I have been harrassed by local time share owners to the point of literally being followed in my car and put on the spot.

Either way, I have to admit that a simple, "No thanks...I live here" usually works well for me.

I can see both sides of the coin and I think that every island, and every tourist, has a different way of dealing with the issue. The experience can be either charming or it can get annoying.

Marion: You're the only poster I can think of that can generate 29 responses in no time flat to a very thought-provoking observation about travel. Everyone's replies have been so interesting as well. You know, I seem to read more posts about fears of being harassed than posts about being harassed by vendors.
And how about the posters who are bordering-on-paranoia about the possibility of crime?
And how about the posters who complain about locals' failure to meet their bourgeois expectations of solicitous behavior? I find it so exasperating to read about what basically amounts to a quest for a Hollywood set of the Caribbean.
Oh well, I suppose that's the point of these travel forums... for those of us who have to inform, clarify, encourage and yes, even challenge those who have not had the fortune to travel.
Mah: I've stayed at the Westin several times and it is a very, very comfortable and aesthetically pleasing place to stay. Great beds, terrific airconditioning, great cable TV, basically a wonderful base of operations from which to conduct forays into the rest of the island. The beach there is only okay. We rented a car from O'Connor's which is conveniently located on site and you just park in the Westin parking lot. Very convenient.
Carrybean: Carry on, you hard-worker! I think it's a fascinating concept that in an ethnic community, when an individual excels, he/she is discouraged or even attacked for getting ahead. I had a secretary whose parents would not allow her to accept a full college scholarship because her success threatened her family's and community's sense of cohesion. They thought it was better for her to have three kids by the time she was 24 and slave making a modest living rather than being the C.P.A. she dreamed of becoming because it would propel her into another tax bracket. Hmmmh... cultural limitations placed on economic growth... too late for me to be getting into that one. I'll leave it to Marion to have another brainstorm next Monday. :)

Marion, what amazes me about travelers is that they forget about the ladies that clean their bathroom daily. Part of the pleasure of my traveling, is to get to know a little about the lives of these hard working women. We just stayed at the Marriott on Grand Cayman. I asked "our gal" how many guests leave a tip. Her answer "not many". My thought is "anyone that cleans my toilet deserves a tip".
To me, it is a token of respect. Owa

Tuxedocat: Good *chilly* morning to you. Ready to pack those warm weather duds ? My post was generated by one I read yesterday morning...requesting that Caribbean perfection without local vendors. Rather than replying to that, I thought I'd start a new thread ;-) I am surprised at the number of responses but pleased that people are reacting/thinking. I think a forum like this should be as the word is defined...an exchange of thoughts and ideas :-)

Owa: Welcome home ! I'm with you all the way on respect and learning what life is like for the locals who make our visits so pleasant. Conversation with hard-working locals, can and should be another kind of forum :-)

It's early for me to step down from the proverbial soap box..so I can't make any promises ;-)

Have a good day !

Marion

The only time I was ever upset about vendors was at the famous Dunns River in Jamaica. It was so beautiful. I lost my husband as it was such picture perfect setting and we were both busy snapping away and as I made my way to the parking lot certain that he must have gone back, I was grabbed by every vendor who literally "helped" me into their little area to show me their work. Nice, but VERY persistant and two women vendors started fighting over me. Once I started saying to them that I had lost my husband and had no money on me they left me alone. Being this was my first trip to the Caribbean made a little more impact on me. Vendors have never bothered me again.
I agree, too, Owa, about the cleaning ladies. We have always left our tip on the nightstand every morning when we leave for breakfast. When we were in Kauai (yes, I know it's not in the Caribbean) we stayed at the Hyatt hotel for two weeks and every morning we got a "thank you Mr and Mrs note" from our maid. You may have just explained why. We would never not tip anyone. In fact, we tipped the concierge and he was so surprised that he kissed me! LOL!

In reading this post, I agree with Caribtraveler that it is not always about whether you are well traveled or not. I think it is a personality type. My husband is a salesman for a living. He talks to everybody. He loves to bargain with a vendor. I think he considers that part of vacation. Whether here in the states or another country, my husband will chat with the guy fishing off the dock if he is out on his morning walk. I, on the other hand, do not like the vendors. I hate to haggle and I do not like saying I am not interested a thousand times a day. I hang up on phone solicitors because I tire of explaining why I can't donate to every cause.
Last spring we were in Chinatown in SF and we had a wonderful tour with an elderly chinese woman that grew up there. She told us stories of her childhood. After a week in SF, we spent four of our days wandering through Chinatown enjoying the people, culture, and bargaining for goods(MY kids especially enjoyed this.)We saw the woman who gave us the tour and my girls ran up and hugged her like she was an old friend.
So, in some respects, by experiencing the culture, I agree with Marion that it seems that we are not as afraid of different people and their cultures.
Since, I am now the only "non-bargainer" person of the family, I guess I should park my butt on the Cayman Islands with Tom and enjoy the serenity.:)(Just teasing!!)

I love the vendors! I have been all over the Caribbean and to Negril many times and probably have the world's largest collection of ankle bracelets and wooden carvings. Other than the guys selling drugs, I have always found that a smile and "no thanks" does the trick if I am not interested. And when I have been approached to buy drugs (which is happening less and less these days since I am getting older and a less likely target) I just tell them I am drug tested at work, which always works! I would feel like I have missed out on one of the best parts of my trips by not interacting with the local residents. Those people work very hard for next to nothing and a few dollars a day for trinkets is nothing next to the megabucks I spend on my room, airfare and food. And shame on people that do not tip their housekeepers. You should be doing that everywhere, not just in the Caribbean. In fact, I have started taking an extra bag with me when I visit the islands with inexpensive T-shirts, coloring books, kids clothes, etc. that I distribute after I have had a few cocktails. I always bring our driver a new shirt and the lady that sells the orange juice some lightweight fabric for a dress. I leave our maids lipsticks and perfume samples (with their tip) and small bottles of lotion. I took Sammy Sosa shirts to the Dominican Republic years ago we were the hit of the island for the whole week. They love it and it makes me feel good.