Family Vacation or Survival ?
Jan 30th, 2006, 03:07 AM
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Family Vacation or Survival ?
OK, so now I'm really freaked out. I have airfare to Montego Bay for Spring Break with my two kids, ages 11 and 14. But after reading trip reports, I'm now reconsidering this trip.
Normally, I would ask in this message what the best place to stay would be, that combines local flavor with nice beach and good food. But I'm now more interested (unfortunately) in SAFETY!
Everywhere I turn I hear about the drugs, the prostitution, the harassing of tourists, etc. Now, I've been to Caribbean countries before, but this seems like a whole different level.
I'm now interested in finding a place with great security as the first priority. Then a nice beach.
We would like to do, maybe 3 nites at a nice AI (BEaches is sold out), then 3 nites in a nice villa in a secure compound.
Oh, and one more thing. SInce it's Spring Break, I'm sure that every pot-smoking American kid heads down there. So where can I go to "attempt" to shield some of this from my kids. I guess the upscale resorts is my target.
YIKES! Any more help is much, much appreciated.
Normally, I would ask in this message what the best place to stay would be, that combines local flavor with nice beach and good food. But I'm now more interested (unfortunately) in SAFETY!
Everywhere I turn I hear about the drugs, the prostitution, the harassing of tourists, etc. Now, I've been to Caribbean countries before, but this seems like a whole different level.
I'm now interested in finding a place with great security as the first priority. Then a nice beach.
We would like to do, maybe 3 nites at a nice AI (BEaches is sold out), then 3 nites in a nice villa in a secure compound.
Oh, and one more thing. SInce it's Spring Break, I'm sure that every pot-smoking American kid heads down there. So where can I go to "attempt" to shield some of this from my kids. I guess the upscale resorts is my target.
YIKES! Any more help is much, much appreciated.
Jan 30th, 2006, 04:55 AM
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Sighhh. Here we go again.
The next time one of these people mentions all of this to you, simply ask them, "Oh really?!" and "What did YOU experience when YOU went to Jamaica that made you feel it was dangerous?"
People just love to spout off - the same thing happens every time we tell someone we go to Mexico frequently - inaccurate info they know nothing about regarding places they've never even been.
If you've been to Caribbean islands before, you'll be perfectly fine.
The only thing we noticed was being offered ganja more than on other islands when we stayed in Negril, but a simple "no thank you" is sufficient for anyone trying to sell you trinkets or anything else, and I doubt anyone would approach you to buy drugs if you are with your family.
Relax and enjoy your trip. Consider Jamaica Inn close to Ocho Rios or Idle Awhile in Negril.
The next time one of these people mentions all of this to you, simply ask them, "Oh really?!" and "What did YOU experience when YOU went to Jamaica that made you feel it was dangerous?"
People just love to spout off - the same thing happens every time we tell someone we go to Mexico frequently - inaccurate info they know nothing about regarding places they've never even been.
If you've been to Caribbean islands before, you'll be perfectly fine.
The only thing we noticed was being offered ganja more than on other islands when we stayed in Negril, but a simple "no thank you" is sufficient for anyone trying to sell you trinkets or anything else, and I doubt anyone would approach you to buy drugs if you are with your family.
Relax and enjoy your trip. Consider Jamaica Inn close to Ocho Rios or Idle Awhile in Negril.
Jan 30th, 2006, 05:17 AM
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Drewzila,
I stumbled upon your thread, and I couldn't pass it by without responding. I have been traveling abroad and to the islands for years. I have taken my children with me as well. I hate to discourage you, but the islands, and other countries have had kidnappings, prostitution and drugs for years..what is happening now, is that they can't hide it anymore, and sweep these happenings under the rug , due to the fact that families are traveling all over the world more now than ever before. The islands always had a problem. Aruba always sold is's island, on safety, beautiful beaches ect. When I started taking my family to Aruba, back in l989, all you heard was there was 'O' unemployment, 'O' crime. So of course, I was going to try it out. My family fell in love with it, and we have gone many times since. Now since an American girl vanishes..we hearing more and more about other killings and stuff going on down there that was kept out of the media.. Drug dealers own some of the more beautiful homes there...just like any where else. I wish Americans would boycott Aruba, and try somewhere else.. There are drugs everywhere, and if your kids are little, they should be with you all the time, no matter where you are in this day and age, teen travel and teen cruises should be discouraged by parents. It is not safe anymore to send your kids on graduation cruises..spring breaks with no adult chaperons will bring more and more al chol related deaths and kidnappings. Girls having stuffed slipped into their drinks will happen everyday. It happened to my daughter...in my own home town, it has happen to girls on vacation..the only thing different..no adults to look after them ....there is no longer a safe place..but then again, was there ever a safe place...as far as places being booked up, it is getting tougher and tougher,, with hotels selling so much space for timeshare..which encourages more family travel. Last minute will be tough now for a family of four. It is easier to find more travel destination choices when it's only for two travelers. Disney world seems to the only place I know where even the crooks, kidnappers, and criminals are on vacation too. Hope you find this alittle more comforting. Just pick a destination with availability, that is in you price range, stick togather like glue..no using public toilets without an adult, even near the pool!!!
always be on gaurd.I know it is hard when you are on vacation know this...take it from another parent who has been there.."There is no such thing as taking a vacation from parenting"...trust no one with you kids alone, stick togather and you all will have a great time... happy travels...china
I stumbled upon your thread, and I couldn't pass it by without responding. I have been traveling abroad and to the islands for years. I have taken my children with me as well. I hate to discourage you, but the islands, and other countries have had kidnappings, prostitution and drugs for years..what is happening now, is that they can't hide it anymore, and sweep these happenings under the rug , due to the fact that families are traveling all over the world more now than ever before. The islands always had a problem. Aruba always sold is's island, on safety, beautiful beaches ect. When I started taking my family to Aruba, back in l989, all you heard was there was 'O' unemployment, 'O' crime. So of course, I was going to try it out. My family fell in love with it, and we have gone many times since. Now since an American girl vanishes..we hearing more and more about other killings and stuff going on down there that was kept out of the media.. Drug dealers own some of the more beautiful homes there...just like any where else. I wish Americans would boycott Aruba, and try somewhere else.. There are drugs everywhere, and if your kids are little, they should be with you all the time, no matter where you are in this day and age, teen travel and teen cruises should be discouraged by parents. It is not safe anymore to send your kids on graduation cruises..spring breaks with no adult chaperons will bring more and more al chol related deaths and kidnappings. Girls having stuffed slipped into their drinks will happen everyday. It happened to my daughter...in my own home town, it has happen to girls on vacation..the only thing different..no adults to look after them ....there is no longer a safe place..but then again, was there ever a safe place...as far as places being booked up, it is getting tougher and tougher,, with hotels selling so much space for timeshare..which encourages more family travel. Last minute will be tough now for a family of four. It is easier to find more travel destination choices when it's only for two travelers. Disney world seems to the only place I know where even the crooks, kidnappers, and criminals are on vacation too. Hope you find this alittle more comforting. Just pick a destination with availability, that is in you price range, stick togather like glue..no using public toilets without an adult, even near the pool!!!
always be on gaurd.I know it is hard when you are on vacation know this...take it from another parent who has been there.."There is no such thing as taking a vacation from parenting"...trust no one with you kids alone, stick togather and you all will have a great time... happy travels...china
Jan 30th, 2006, 06:08 AM
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"I wish Americans would boycott Aruba, and try somewhere else.. "
Why, China105? Why do you advocate Americans boycotting Aruba?
"we hearing more and more about other killings and stuff going on down there that was kept out of the media"
What other killings?
And perhaps instead of being "kept out of the media" it's more like: repeated ad nauseum on the internet, til it gets blown out of proportion so much it doesn't even resemble the original story...
Why, China105? Why do you advocate Americans boycotting Aruba?
"we hearing more and more about other killings and stuff going on down there that was kept out of the media"
What other killings?
And perhaps instead of being "kept out of the media" it's more like: repeated ad nauseum on the internet, til it gets blown out of proportion so much it doesn't even resemble the original story...
Jan 30th, 2006, 06:29 AM
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drewzilla, I would recommend keeping your travel plans intact. Though it certainly does have a bad rap, particularly among those people who have never been there, Jamaica truly is a wonderful country with much to offer.
Instead of staying in the MoBay area, consider heading into Negril. Skip the AIs and look into Idle Awhile, as other folks have mentioned. It combines intimacy in a family-run atmosphere with a nice island-style flair. If Idle Awhile is booked, take a look at Coco La Palm. If you truly feel you must have an AI place, take a look at the Moondance Villas (The Caves is a highly recommended AI, but your daughters are too young to stay there).
If you want to get off the tourist track for the most part, take a look at the Treasure Beach area. I stayed there for my first trip to Jamaica last year, and the wonderful poster named Marion just spent the month of December. She's a solo traveler and she loved TB so much she's going back for the entire month of February and then some (5 weeks). You can do a search for either of our enthusiastic trip reports.
Also do a search for liza and tivertonhouse, both of whom are the resident experts on Jamaica, particularly the Jamaica that is off the beaten path.
Instead of staying in the MoBay area, consider heading into Negril. Skip the AIs and look into Idle Awhile, as other folks have mentioned. It combines intimacy in a family-run atmosphere with a nice island-style flair. If Idle Awhile is booked, take a look at Coco La Palm. If you truly feel you must have an AI place, take a look at the Moondance Villas (The Caves is a highly recommended AI, but your daughters are too young to stay there).
If you want to get off the tourist track for the most part, take a look at the Treasure Beach area. I stayed there for my first trip to Jamaica last year, and the wonderful poster named Marion just spent the month of December. She's a solo traveler and she loved TB so much she's going back for the entire month of February and then some (5 weeks). You can do a search for either of our enthusiastic trip reports.
Also do a search for liza and tivertonhouse, both of whom are the resident experts on Jamaica, particularly the Jamaica that is off the beaten path.
Jan 30th, 2006, 06:39 AM
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China, no offense, but anyone on this board with only 10 posts - and looking for a cheap plastic surgeon and cheap massages and NO posts on their heretofore-mentioned Caribbean travels is a bit suspect to me...
Jan 30th, 2006, 08:03 AM
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I agree with Diana. Jamaica is wonderful and a pleasant no thank you to the locals and they will leave you alone. The Jamaicans are very warm and friendly people and the country is so beautiful. Go and enjoy.
Jan 30th, 2006, 08:05 AM
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Diana LOL,
A quote from China105's post "There are drugs everywhere, and if your kids are little, they should be with you all the time, no matter where you are in this day and age, teen travel and teen cruises should be discouraged by parents. It is not safe anymore to send your kids on graduation cruises..spring breaks with no adult chaperons will bring more and more al chol related deaths and kidnappings. Girls having stuffed slipped into their drinks will happen everyday. It happened to my daughter...in my own home town, it has happen to girls on vacation..the only thing different..no adults to look after"
As China says - it happens in your hometown and your kids are more likely to be offered drugs by their schoolmates than on a beach in Jamaica.
Idle Awhile is a wonderful resort ona wonderful beach but most of their rooms are for 2 people only, you will probably be best staying at Coco LaPalm with children. As Diana says you will not be approached and offered drugs if you are with your children.
Paranoia is not a good thing to pass along to your children - trust in them to follow your good example and while I would suggest you keep an eye on your children (where ever you are)please don't scare them with 'bogey men' who potentially exist only in your mind
A quote from China105's post "There are drugs everywhere, and if your kids are little, they should be with you all the time, no matter where you are in this day and age, teen travel and teen cruises should be discouraged by parents. It is not safe anymore to send your kids on graduation cruises..spring breaks with no adult chaperons will bring more and more al chol related deaths and kidnappings. Girls having stuffed slipped into their drinks will happen everyday. It happened to my daughter...in my own home town, it has happen to girls on vacation..the only thing different..no adults to look after"
As China says - it happens in your hometown and your kids are more likely to be offered drugs by their schoolmates than on a beach in Jamaica.
Idle Awhile is a wonderful resort ona wonderful beach but most of their rooms are for 2 people only, you will probably be best staying at Coco LaPalm with children. As Diana says you will not be approached and offered drugs if you are with your children.
Paranoia is not a good thing to pass along to your children - trust in them to follow your good example and while I would suggest you keep an eye on your children (where ever you are)please don't scare them with 'bogey men' who potentially exist only in your mind
Jan 30th, 2006, 08:33 AM
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I have been to Jamaica and several other Carribean islands (St. Johns, Aruba, Cayman Islands) and would never ever go back to Jamaica though I would return readily to the others. What I experienced firsthand was that vendors would stalk you. We were in an all-inclusive resort where the vendors weren't allowed but if you went outside the resort, they would swarm you and continue to follow you even after you said no. We also experienced drugs everywhere. The bus driver was selling them. When my husband went wind-surfing, a boat followed him out to try and sell him drugs. No one ever attacked me or threatened harm to me in Jamaica but I definitely did not feel safe.
Jan 30th, 2006, 08:41 AM
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We stayed at Couples in Ocho Rios...not where you'd stay with kids but lets you know what Ocho Rios was like....as the resort itself had no issues...just if you walked outside the resort....or went into the ocean.
Jan 30th, 2006, 09:51 AM
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All-inclusive resorts are like a self-fulfilling prophecy. They warn their guests not to go outside alone because it's dangerous, then if a guest does, s/he is totally uncomfortable and nervous.
In additon, when the occasional guest does venture out, the vendors swarm them, knowing this is their one shot at a sale. It's like a vicious circle.
I agree aobut Treasure Beach. This area is unique in Jamaica for the way tourism has developed. The model is "community tourism" - local people participate directly in tourism by running boat trips, restaurants, etc...they benefit directly from tourists and are not shut out as they are in AI resort towns. That creates a totally different dynamic. You walk out of your hotel or villa and there is no crowd waiting outside...you can ride bikes (little traffic), you can walk. Occasionally someone may invite you to take look at their wares or whatever but that's aobut it..no thanks and it's done (unless you want to look, of course).
TB is also NOT at all a drug town, as Negril, in part, is. Many, many tourists go to Jamaica, and perhaps Negril in particular, to do things they cannot do at home, and the locals are glad to oblige by offering whtever it is that they think tourists want. Often, that is drugs (and prostitution, etc).
That said, I have taken my family to Negril several times and not one time have we been offered drugs when walking with our children. Without them, yes, with them, no.
On the spring breakers...I hear you. They are avoided by not staying on the beach in Negril in the last week of Feb-thru the last week of March. We spent a week on Negril beach with our kids during SB once and my kids just marveled at how drunk and stupid they got. (well the stupid part...mine were only 5 and 8 and don't really know what "drunk" is). One student threw a potted plant from his patio into the pool one night (his last night, of course)...shut the pool right down for two days while they got the broken pottery and dirt out...amazing how awful teens can be when they're away from home.
Anyway, I'd look at a private villa in Treasure Beach - have a look at jamaicaescapes.com for some ideas, and definitely check treasurebeach.net also.
This is about the busiest time in Jamaica so it may be difficult to book a good villa this late, but give a try.
THe only begative about TB is that hte sand is not white and the water can be rough at times, depending on wher eyou are. Negril has the long touristy beach with jetskis and parasailing and all that - these don't exist in TB.
In additon, when the occasional guest does venture out, the vendors swarm them, knowing this is their one shot at a sale. It's like a vicious circle.
I agree aobut Treasure Beach. This area is unique in Jamaica for the way tourism has developed. The model is "community tourism" - local people participate directly in tourism by running boat trips, restaurants, etc...they benefit directly from tourists and are not shut out as they are in AI resort towns. That creates a totally different dynamic. You walk out of your hotel or villa and there is no crowd waiting outside...you can ride bikes (little traffic), you can walk. Occasionally someone may invite you to take look at their wares or whatever but that's aobut it..no thanks and it's done (unless you want to look, of course).
TB is also NOT at all a drug town, as Negril, in part, is. Many, many tourists go to Jamaica, and perhaps Negril in particular, to do things they cannot do at home, and the locals are glad to oblige by offering whtever it is that they think tourists want. Often, that is drugs (and prostitution, etc).
That said, I have taken my family to Negril several times and not one time have we been offered drugs when walking with our children. Without them, yes, with them, no.
On the spring breakers...I hear you. They are avoided by not staying on the beach in Negril in the last week of Feb-thru the last week of March. We spent a week on Negril beach with our kids during SB once and my kids just marveled at how drunk and stupid they got. (well the stupid part...mine were only 5 and 8 and don't really know what "drunk" is). One student threw a potted plant from his patio into the pool one night (his last night, of course)...shut the pool right down for two days while they got the broken pottery and dirt out...amazing how awful teens can be when they're away from home.
Anyway, I'd look at a private villa in Treasure Beach - have a look at jamaicaescapes.com for some ideas, and definitely check treasurebeach.net also.
This is about the busiest time in Jamaica so it may be difficult to book a good villa this late, but give a try.
THe only begative about TB is that hte sand is not white and the water can be rough at times, depending on wher eyou are. Negril has the long touristy beach with jetskis and parasailing and all that - these don't exist in TB.
Jan 30th, 2006, 05:29 PM
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To all of you who read my message...
I have traveled more than most that I have read about on this thread. I don't have time to write like others who spend alot of time on these threads. There is so much that is kept out of the media..Aruba has many secrets.. Things have happened to my daughters friends in Aruba that noone wanted to talk about when they got home..I have taken my kids to Ochos Rios where my seven year old was offered gonge right on the street...and old man talking strangely, mumbling things, trying to reach for her hand not making any sence tried to get her attention away from me...I know what I experienced and saw with my own eyes. Jamaica is beautiful, it's a great vacation spot...just becareful...our children are innocent, and are more prone to be less sceptical about people while on vacation... it's fun time...they don't always think about this stuff.
And the smarty pants that made the thoughtless comment about my only writing ten posts, about plastic surgery...it's my research about Bumrungrad Hospital on 60 minutes that introduced me to this message board in the first place, where I read and met people through words, that were wise, repectful, and eager to offer advice to newcomers..especially on an asian section of this board. I have never been to thailand, and am very curious...you seem very narrow minded and quick to pass judgement. If it were not for Bumrungrad, I wouldn't have been able to express my feelings about safe family travel. I don't not have much time to stay on my pc. I wish I did, but that doesn't give anyone the right to critisize my curiousity about plastic surgery, family travel, or anything else...for those who understood where I was coming from..thanks for your understanding....china105
And what's more...if cheaper plastic surgery is excepted by my friends who are in the music industry in LA, who could afford the best of the best of plastic surgeons in Beverly Hills, then it is good enough for me..I never took their word seriously, and I discouraged these forein surgeries to them...however, when I saw strangers, on 60 minutes, travel to Bangkok, and here their experiences, I wanted to read and possibly communicate with a recent cosmetic surgery traveler, to discuss fears, surgeons, expectiations, results...I believe that I am being smarter researching this endeavor before I dive into it and make an unchangeable mistake.....better safe than sorry...sorry some out there found fault with my other comments...It's hard to believe that someone who is willing to have plastic surgery, and is too busy to talk alot on-line, can be smart enough to share opinions on other topics as well...
I have traveled more than most that I have read about on this thread. I don't have time to write like others who spend alot of time on these threads. There is so much that is kept out of the media..Aruba has many secrets.. Things have happened to my daughters friends in Aruba that noone wanted to talk about when they got home..I have taken my kids to Ochos Rios where my seven year old was offered gonge right on the street...and old man talking strangely, mumbling things, trying to reach for her hand not making any sence tried to get her attention away from me...I know what I experienced and saw with my own eyes. Jamaica is beautiful, it's a great vacation spot...just becareful...our children are innocent, and are more prone to be less sceptical about people while on vacation... it's fun time...they don't always think about this stuff.
And the smarty pants that made the thoughtless comment about my only writing ten posts, about plastic surgery...it's my research about Bumrungrad Hospital on 60 minutes that introduced me to this message board in the first place, where I read and met people through words, that were wise, repectful, and eager to offer advice to newcomers..especially on an asian section of this board. I have never been to thailand, and am very curious...you seem very narrow minded and quick to pass judgement. If it were not for Bumrungrad, I wouldn't have been able to express my feelings about safe family travel. I don't not have much time to stay on my pc. I wish I did, but that doesn't give anyone the right to critisize my curiousity about plastic surgery, family travel, or anything else...for those who understood where I was coming from..thanks for your understanding....china105
And what's more...if cheaper plastic surgery is excepted by my friends who are in the music industry in LA, who could afford the best of the best of plastic surgeons in Beverly Hills, then it is good enough for me..I never took their word seriously, and I discouraged these forein surgeries to them...however, when I saw strangers, on 60 minutes, travel to Bangkok, and here their experiences, I wanted to read and possibly communicate with a recent cosmetic surgery traveler, to discuss fears, surgeons, expectiations, results...I believe that I am being smarter researching this endeavor before I dive into it and make an unchangeable mistake.....better safe than sorry...sorry some out there found fault with my other comments...It's hard to believe that someone who is willing to have plastic surgery, and is too busy to talk alot on-line, can be smart enough to share opinions on other topics as well...
Jan 30th, 2006, 05:36 PM
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Americans should boycott Aruba, because a beautiful American girl vanishes without a trace...local boys admit being with her before she vanishes, and her poor mother is devestated, with no answers, no satisfaction...and no daughter....
Until they find the american beauty, americans should spend their money somewhere else, then maybe the Arubian officials will be given the jolt they need to get off their butts and find her. she is not my daughter..but she could have been...
Until they find the american beauty, americans should spend their money somewhere else, then maybe the Arubian officials will be given the jolt they need to get off their butts and find her. she is not my daughter..but she could have been...
Jan 31st, 2006, 03:49 AM
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Thank you ALL for your insight and help! I've finally made a decision. I'm packing up the uzi, the body armor, and the stun gun and taking my family to the Cocopalm. We got a suite. Almost everything I've heard about the place is positive. Plus, with a nice, big suite, if things get REALLY bad, I can always barricade us in the room (just kidding).
Yeah Mon!
Yeah Mon!
Jan 31st, 2006, 03:53 AM
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when you speak of crime on your own soil, where you live, every day.. it is difficult...You have more chances of finding criminals here on our soil with American authorities then when you travel abroad. International law has more loopholes than a speghetti collender. Dealing with criminals is difficult in any coutry. How does one boycott their own country? I don't have the answers, HOWEVER< I am not on vacation here in the U>S>, this girl did not disappear in the U>S and this country doesn't make money on my hoidays. Aruba surrives on tourism. It is a small island. If not only Americans boycotted, hotels began to empty out..resteraunts suffered..than maybe someone will say.."Hey, this needs addressing..it is hurting our islands economic system" nothing hurts more than loosing a child...we have the amber alert system now in place in most states...I am not sure about teens., but our authorities would work faster than Arubian authorities would would anyday. They expect and count on vacationers forgetting about the negatives until they want to book another vacation..They have nothing to loose until someone or all of us make them feel the lose. Remember money talks..and the loss of it talks faster and louder...
Jan 31st, 2006, 04:33 AM
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china, with so little time, one would think you'd answer the question more succinctly:
What about the "other killings" and "stuff going on down there being kept out of the media". Too busy to give us details? If you don't give accurate details, then are you part of the coverup? After all, you've been there many times, so you must know the facts. I for one, would like you to inform me.
As far as "getting off their butt", the Aruban authorities have never stopped looking for Natalee. As we speak they are making a trip to the US to interview her friends:
http://www.hardbeatnews.com/editor/R...=Top%20Stories
What about the "other killings" and "stuff going on down there being kept out of the media". Too busy to give us details? If you don't give accurate details, then are you part of the coverup? After all, you've been there many times, so you must know the facts. I for one, would like you to inform me.
As far as "getting off their butt", the Aruban authorities have never stopped looking for Natalee. As we speak they are making a trip to the US to interview her friends:
http://www.hardbeatnews.com/editor/R...=Top%20Stories
Jan 31st, 2006, 04:45 AM
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Drewzilla
I’m sure you will all have a wonderful time, it's the best part of Negril beach.
Take the kids and walk through Kuyaba and talk to the parrots
China - your posts are hard to read, you might want to try to break them up into paragraphs.
Quote from China "I don't have time to write like others who spend alot of time on these threads." - You certainly seem to have enough time to rant and preach to us about where we should and shouldn't spend our time and money
I’m sure you will all have a wonderful time, it's the best part of Negril beach.
Take the kids and walk through Kuyaba and talk to the parrots
China - your posts are hard to read, you might want to try to break them up into paragraphs.
Quote from China "I don't have time to write like others who spend alot of time on these threads." - You certainly seem to have enough time to rant and preach to us about where we should and shouldn't spend our time and money
Jan 31st, 2006, 06:18 AM
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I think you will enjoy CocoLapalm very much. We stayed there last July in a beachfront room. It is located on the best part of Negril Beach, pretty much right in the middle. Be sure to check out 3 Dives on the cliffs for excellent lobster and jerk chicken at a very good price. Taxi is about $20 RT. Also Norma's at Seasplash for more upscale dining. Have a nice and safe vacation!
