ANYONE BEEN TO CUBA ?

Oct 19th, 1997, 09:16 PM
  #21  
Ronald
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I suppose we should be honored by this visit from the Lord High Self Appointed Censor who presumes to tell others, in an insulting manner, what they can speak to each other about without having even been asked. You know where you can go!
 
Oct 20th, 1997, 08:28 AM
  #22  
Mare
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Nils and Ronald: Since you both have each other's email addresses, would you please communicate your political views on Cuba with each other separately from this forum. I mean this in a kind way but not everyone wishes to share your views, etc. Thank you.
 
Oct 20th, 1997, 10:44 AM
  #23  
PACO
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Cuba is a wonderful place with wonderful people.It`s a shame what I read here,people who goes to Jamaica,Mexico,Guatemela and doesn`t think in the corruption,repression,crime,children explotation,no schools,etc,only Cuba is a terrible country.In Cuba you have great beaches,beautiful cities like La Habana,Trinidad,Santiago,Cienfuegos,great surroundings like Tope de Collantes and good and educated people.It`s less dangerous than Florida,Washintong,New York.Go to Cuba and talk with cubans,and see everything.Please let the countries take their own solutions and ride their future.
 
Oct 21st, 1997, 11:08 AM
  #24  
Michel
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PACO... Thank you for bringing a little sanity and humanity back to this site!
 
Oct 21st, 1997, 01:53 PM
  #25  
Ronald
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Perhaps someone could explain why not one message from a Cuban who lives in Cuba has appeared here. Could it be they have been muzzled? Perish the thought!
 
Oct 21st, 1997, 02:07 PM
  #26  
Ronald
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Eureka! I just realized they are not allowed to travel freely so why would they be interested in a site discussing tourism? Besides, they are broke and why leave Paradise anyway? Well, that's not really our business is it?
 
Oct 21st, 1997, 07:30 PM
  #27  
Michel
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Au départ je voulais répondre à cet Américain qui croit tout savoir sur les pays en voie de développement, surtout Cuba. Toutefois, je me suis rendu compte qu'il n'avait jamais regardé son propre pays et toute la merde qui se trouve dans sa propre cour.
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 09:13 AM
  #28  
Ronald
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Sorry don't read French. However, the use of obscene language is an infallible sign of an empty argument and a lower class mind.
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 02:26 PM
  #29  
PACO
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I say you again,go to Cuba and have a good time and look one saturday night the malecon in La Habana,plenty of cubans drinking,laughing,loving,talking.Let cubans decide their own future.I don't see messages like this in other topics of third world country.Cuba has less illiteracy,infantile mortality than any other american country including USA.If you want to know what really happens in Cuba go there and don't have prejudgement .I'm spanish and I love Cuba.
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 04:30 PM
  #30  
Ronald
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Estimado Paco: no tengo nada en contra a Cuba o a los Cubanos. Al contrario conozco muchos de ellos en los EEUU y he trabajado con ellos como colegas. Inclusive tengo muchos anos trabajando con America Latina y paises en desarrollo - ademas he vivido en America Latina muchos anos y estoy casada con una latina. Pero se que en Cuba no hay libertad de pensamiento, prensa, debate abierto y de emigracion ya que todo el mundo estan bajo control en cada barrio por los comites de vigilancia. Que manera de vivir en estos tiempos! Es una barbaridad y totalmente innecesario. Hoy en dia Cuba esta bajo un regimen tiranico y esto le puede confirmar cualquier Cubano que es libre del control del estado Cubano. Ojala ese pueble sufrido algun dia esta libre de tal gobierno que ha perdido todo razon de existir un dia mas.
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 04:54 PM
  #31  
Ronald
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Michel: I did some work on your message in French and, while I don't have a complete translation, I believe I have the general sense of what you have said. First, I have devoted a long career to working with developing countries in Latin America and have lived abroad there for almost a decade. I am also well aware of the deficiencies of life in the US and I deplore them as much as anyone. But these do not justify the repression of the Cuban people as to their liberty, freedom of speech, freedom to vote, freedom to emigrate or travel and to live like ordinary humans in a free society. I happen to believe that human rights are important and I cannot remain silent while they are being so violently repressed by the Cuban government. If this makes me a pain in the ... I'm sorry but certain things are more important than visiting nice hotels on the beach while outside the populace scrambles to earn the minimum to live. That's really obscene tourism in my view and should be openly discussed by those who want to take advantage of the Cuban people in this way.
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 06:42 PM
  #32  
Tom Patrick
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Ronald,YOU have just insulted more people than you could imagine.On my many visits to Cuba I see tourist giving to the Cuban people clothing,shoes,etc.etc. that they cant obtain for themselves through no fault of their own.AS I write,my wife is in Cuba with supplies for a new mother. So dont dare say that we Canadians are taking advantage of a sad situation.Tom Patrick.P.S.Give it a rest,Ronald,and stick to tourism!
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 09:46 PM
  #33  
Ronald
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Dear Tom: I said nothing about Canadians. Only about tourists who exploited Cubans. Obviously those who are doing selfless acts to help them don't fall into this category. Tourists to Cuba come from European and other Latin countries as well. I dare say that only a few of the tourists are there to assist Cubans as you indicated.
 
Oct 22nd, 1997, 10:21 PM
  #34  
Ronald
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Dear Tom: I sense that I am getting angry reactions from Canadians because what I am saying is true. I don't ascribe evil intent to any of the tourists who visit Cuba. But, the simple fact is that they are supporting the present regime financially albeit probably unwittingly. Someone said that for tyranny to flourish all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. I do not intend to be silent no matter who it irritates (and educates). I wish I didn't even have to be a scold here. But travel to some places seems to have a moral content and adults should be able to discuss this as well as the lovely beaches.
 
Oct 23rd, 1997, 04:55 AM
  #35  
Michel
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Everything being relative, is one form of intolerance more justified than another? Hasta luego!
 
Oct 23rd, 1997, 06:53 AM
  #36  
Michel
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Let me begin by saying that my French message contained no "obscene language". Simply stated, French is my first language. Therefore, I am more confortable writing/thinking in French than in any other language. However...

In my opinion, whether the activities, philosophies, politics... of Socrates, Washington, Chrétien, Clinton or Che Guevara are "good" or "bad"; whether we agree with Paco, Nils, Ronald, Tom, Bill, Jim, Peggy, Perry or John... depends upon with which "side" or with which group or person we identify ourselves. Once we make such an identification, we merely demonstrate our subjective sympathy (or bias) with the chosen "party". Whether we identify or do not identify with one of the parties involved, defending our point of view does not necessarily increase our knowledge of a "given state of affairs".

The world as we know it (as is illustrated by this site) is made up of a plurality of groups with often conflicting values and interests. In my opinion, the discussion in this site has gone way beyond Cuba. It demonstrates how as "products" of our respective societies, we often perceive the same reality differently. It also shows how language, feelings, emotions, politics and values are shaped by our respective cultural and social environments.
 
Oct 23rd, 1997, 07:36 AM
  #37  
Ronald
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Michel: Very eloquently put. I must agree. When I first read your French message I saw one word and responded with the "obscene" comment. I'd like to retract that as I now see it was in the proper context of the sentence and the language used. Frankly, I'm tired of this whole discussion and think that I have said all I have to contribute whether or not it is popular. However, I do respect the right of citizens of other nations to deal with Cuba as their laws and consciences dictate. It is clear that the US position is sincerely questioned and this is also true here as well and by yours truly too! I was recently stationed abroad for a couple of years where I met Cubans and became friends with a number of them and I was depressed by the control which was exercised over them by their own government (I even played dominoes regularly with the Cuban Ambassador to that country and he was a nice fellow trying to get along by going along with the system - it's either that or spend your life on the margins economically and in all other ways). They couldn't speak freely in the presence of other Cubans (they all suspect their fellow Cubans of being informers), couldn't go to certain places as it would be taken badly, that their family members back in Cuba would suffer if the actions of the Cuban abroad were determined to be somehow "subversive" and any small thing could trigger such a determination. Their dollar income was even taxed at the rate of 60%25 by their government which left them peanuts to live on and their life style showed it. So, I concluded that such a government was a scandal to have in this hemisphere and world. Sure I know they have some good things but they have paid a horrendous price - just having to listen to their "Maximum Leader" talk for seven hours at a stretch must be excruciating. OK, lets get on with our lives and leave the Cubans to their fate. Thanks for your patience (and you forced me to polish what little tourist French I possess so that came out well enough). I just want the tourists to be fully aware of what they are doing when they patronize the establishments in Cuba. Au revoir et bon chance!
 
Oct 26th, 1997, 02:09 PM
  #38  
Robert Linares
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Please visit http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf

This might give you some hard facts about life in Cuba, and travelling to Cuba.
 
Nov 3rd, 1997, 05:28 PM
  #39  
Lyndsay
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Although I haven't been to Cuba yet, I like to see and visit and learn about other cultures not bash them or bash other people, you people who have been undermining each other at this site are very narrow minded and rude. Grow up and enjoy life, all lifes.
 
Aug 15th, 1998, 10:05 PM
  #40  
Kelly
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Hello Ron, Nils and all the rest of you.
*Ronald I just wanted to say thanks for your letters to this forums. You have taught me things I did not know about Cuba. I have been going there once a year for the past four years, honestly, I really love Cuba. Thanks again and P.S> I am Canadain
 

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