Travelers, does Canada seem more relaxed and laid back than America?
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:28 AM
#21
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goddesstogo
Ignore ronnie36. He posted once before on this thread and his remarks were so blatantly racist and inflammatory they were removed (and on another thread also). Looks like he's trying again, just toned down enough to not have them deleted.
Ignore ronnie36. He posted once before on this thread and his remarks were so blatantly racist and inflammatory they were removed (and on another thread also). Looks like he's trying again, just toned down enough to not have them deleted.
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Apr 18th, 2008, 02:34 PM
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Wow, lots of different opinions, very interesting.
I lived in the U.S. for 4 years in the 90's (suburb of big northeastern City). Otherwise have always lived in Canada - in Toronto and elsewhere in southern Ontario.
I would say yes to most of your comments - for the most part and on average. There are bad neighbourhoods, but I've seen some of the U.S. inner city neighbourhoods and there aren't that many places up here that compare.
There is racism, but I believe less. I know many "mixed" marriages of all kinds of ethnicities (including within my own family). I have seen some tactless remarks made around them, but generally this has been mild. I know there are people who may feel strong racism, but they mostly keep it to themselves, at least in public.
Politics are much more polarized in the U.S. The whole suburban area I lived in was considered "Republican" and when I told a canvasser doing a survey that if I was an American citizen, I would probably be a "Democrat" he expressed surprise because of my neighbourhood. Business associates regularly made disparaging remarks about Democrats - not just in general, but about specific people known to vote Democrat. They automatically assumed everyone at the office (white collar industry setting) were Republicans.
I found Religion to be more prominent in general, i.e. came up in casual conversation much more frequently than in Canada - e.g. "in my church"...etc., etc., or "after Church last Sunday.... etc.
There are poor and rich in Canada, but - "on average" the spread is not nearly as wide as in the U.S. Wages tend to be higher for the lower paying jobs, and lower for the high end jobs than in the U.S. - again on average. We have much more social assistance - universal Medicare, unemployment insurance, welfare, disability pensions, etc. We also have higher taxes, in part to fund these (although there are other factors also).
There is generally less crime - although those living in Canada's big cities might not think so. Statistics use to back this up, but I haven't seen more recent stats.
Our schools are more homogenous in quality. Which means most schools are pretty good. Again, there is not as much disparity from one region or neighbourhood to another as in the U.S.
All this is simply my opinion based on some specific observations.
I lived in the U.S. for 4 years in the 90's (suburb of big northeastern City). Otherwise have always lived in Canada - in Toronto and elsewhere in southern Ontario.
I would say yes to most of your comments - for the most part and on average. There are bad neighbourhoods, but I've seen some of the U.S. inner city neighbourhoods and there aren't that many places up here that compare.
There is racism, but I believe less. I know many "mixed" marriages of all kinds of ethnicities (including within my own family). I have seen some tactless remarks made around them, but generally this has been mild. I know there are people who may feel strong racism, but they mostly keep it to themselves, at least in public.
Politics are much more polarized in the U.S. The whole suburban area I lived in was considered "Republican" and when I told a canvasser doing a survey that if I was an American citizen, I would probably be a "Democrat" he expressed surprise because of my neighbourhood. Business associates regularly made disparaging remarks about Democrats - not just in general, but about specific people known to vote Democrat. They automatically assumed everyone at the office (white collar industry setting) were Republicans.
I found Religion to be more prominent in general, i.e. came up in casual conversation much more frequently than in Canada - e.g. "in my church"...etc., etc., or "after Church last Sunday.... etc.
There are poor and rich in Canada, but - "on average" the spread is not nearly as wide as in the U.S. Wages tend to be higher for the lower paying jobs, and lower for the high end jobs than in the U.S. - again on average. We have much more social assistance - universal Medicare, unemployment insurance, welfare, disability pensions, etc. We also have higher taxes, in part to fund these (although there are other factors also).
There is generally less crime - although those living in Canada's big cities might not think so. Statistics use to back this up, but I haven't seen more recent stats.
Our schools are more homogenous in quality. Which means most schools are pretty good. Again, there is not as much disparity from one region or neighbourhood to another as in the U.S.
All this is simply my opinion based on some specific observations.
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:39 PM
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I grew up in the Bay Area in California in the 70's and when I first visited Ottawa in 2003, I found it to be very comparable to what I remembered of my childhood. It was more relaxed and trusting than things are here nowadays.
Right before that trip, I read an article that stated that there had been 6 official murders in Ottawa between January and June of 2003. That's a HUGE difference from Washington DC.
When I see comparisons between Canada and the US, I think of a line from an Arrogant Worms song (Proud to be Canadian):
"We won't say that we're better, it's just that we're less worse."
Right before that trip, I read an article that stated that there had been 6 official murders in Ottawa between January and June of 2003. That's a HUGE difference from Washington DC.
When I see comparisons between Canada and the US, I think of a line from an Arrogant Worms song (Proud to be Canadian):
"We won't say that we're better, it's just that we're less worse."
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:20 PM
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"Ignore ronnie36. He posted once before on this thread and his remarks were so blatantly racist and inflammatory they were removed"
I never posted anything "racist", just my opinion based on personal experience which in this politcally correct era means censorship, basically.
">>>Canada has mostly various asian groups whereas the US has blacks,hispanics and asians<<<"Thanks for that ronnie36, I needed a good laugh."
You needn't laugh, it's the truth. There are hardly any blacks or hispanics in Canada, you are fooling yourself if you think the numbers equal anything close to the USA. Canada mostly has asian groups and far less different races than the USA, and I've been throughout both.
I never posted anything "racist", just my opinion based on personal experience which in this politcally correct era means censorship, basically.
">>>Canada has mostly various asian groups whereas the US has blacks,hispanics and asians<<<"Thanks for that ronnie36, I needed a good laugh."
You needn't laugh, it's the truth. There are hardly any blacks or hispanics in Canada, you are fooling yourself if you think the numbers equal anything close to the USA. Canada mostly has asian groups and far less different races than the USA, and I've been throughout both.
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:34 PM
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Just some other observations:
"There is racism, but I believe less."(IN Canada)
Again, Canada has a lower percentage of ethnic minorities and very few blacks/hispanics compared to the US and the circumstance are differnent so it is impossible to say who if anyone is more/less racist.
"Politics are much more polarized in the U.S"
Sorry but there is just as much polarization between Canada's or any country's left/right. You just hear more about it in the USA media.
"Business associates regularly made disparaging remarks about Democrats - not just in general, but about specific people known to vote Democrat. They automatically assumed everyone at the office (white collar industry setting) were Republicans."
Well I live in Texas and I never heard anything of the sort. Nobody has ever assumed in my experience that white collar people are all republicans. People have different politcal views in any country, left vs.right, and you'll always hear dispariging remarks towards those of different views, regardless of whether you are in the US, Canada or wherever. That has been my experience.
"There are poor and rich in Canada, but - "on average" the spread is not nearly as wide as in the U.S. Wages tend to be higher for the lower paying jobs, and lower for the high end jobs than in the U.S. - again on average. We have much more social assistance - universal Medicare, unemployment insurance, welfare, disability pensions, etc."
Well Canada does not have to pay hardly anything in defence because that is covered by the USA, so Canada can spend more on social welfare. Canada also does not have millions of poor illegal migrants from Mexico coming into their country, so an unfair comparison.
"Our schools are more homogenous in quality. Which means most schools are pretty good."
What this really says is our schools are mostly all white so better.(in others words, (s)he says that their schools are mostly all white so better than the USA. Oh no, this smacks of racism.
Seriously, comparing the USA and Canada is ridiculous when the situations and the racial dynamics are so different.
"There is racism, but I believe less."(IN Canada)
Again, Canada has a lower percentage of ethnic minorities and very few blacks/hispanics compared to the US and the circumstance are differnent so it is impossible to say who if anyone is more/less racist.
"Politics are much more polarized in the U.S"
Sorry but there is just as much polarization between Canada's or any country's left/right. You just hear more about it in the USA media.
"Business associates regularly made disparaging remarks about Democrats - not just in general, but about specific people known to vote Democrat. They automatically assumed everyone at the office (white collar industry setting) were Republicans."
Well I live in Texas and I never heard anything of the sort. Nobody has ever assumed in my experience that white collar people are all republicans. People have different politcal views in any country, left vs.right, and you'll always hear dispariging remarks towards those of different views, regardless of whether you are in the US, Canada or wherever. That has been my experience.
"There are poor and rich in Canada, but - "on average" the spread is not nearly as wide as in the U.S. Wages tend to be higher for the lower paying jobs, and lower for the high end jobs than in the U.S. - again on average. We have much more social assistance - universal Medicare, unemployment insurance, welfare, disability pensions, etc."
Well Canada does not have to pay hardly anything in defence because that is covered by the USA, so Canada can spend more on social welfare. Canada also does not have millions of poor illegal migrants from Mexico coming into their country, so an unfair comparison.
"Our schools are more homogenous in quality. Which means most schools are pretty good."
What this really says is our schools are mostly all white so better.(in others words, (s)he says that their schools are mostly all white so better than the USA. Oh no, this smacks of racism.
Seriously, comparing the USA and Canada is ridiculous when the situations and the racial dynamics are so different.
Apr 19th, 2008, 07:34 AM
#28
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I would not agree that Canada is less diverse than the US, but the breakdown is definitely different.
The US tracks only "visible" ethnicity. That means they do not track Eastern European ethnicities (Russian, Ukranian, etc.). They also do not track Middle Eastern ethnicities. The US tracks Hispanic, Asian, Black, Pacific Islander and White. If you don't fit into one of the first 4 categories, you're "white" by default.
Canada does break out Eastern European and Middle Eastern ethnicities.
http://tinyurl.com/yx2vf3
http://tinyurl.com/5lqtql
Also, Canada's immigration has only opened up since Pearson changed the laws. Until 1967, there were restrictions on non-white immigration. Since the 1980's, there has been an average of 225,000–275,000 annually with the majority being "visible minorities".
The US tracks only "visible" ethnicity. That means they do not track Eastern European ethnicities (Russian, Ukranian, etc.). They also do not track Middle Eastern ethnicities. The US tracks Hispanic, Asian, Black, Pacific Islander and White. If you don't fit into one of the first 4 categories, you're "white" by default.
Canada does break out Eastern European and Middle Eastern ethnicities.
http://tinyurl.com/yx2vf3
http://tinyurl.com/5lqtql
Also, Canada's immigration has only opened up since Pearson changed the laws. Until 1967, there were restrictions on non-white immigration. Since the 1980's, there has been an average of 225,000–275,000 annually with the majority being "visible minorities".
Apr 19th, 2008, 07:40 PM
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I'm sorry ronnie36, but you are completely, utterly, 100% wrong.
The GTA is a part of Canada, you know. Yes, Vancouver's immigrant population is predominately Asian. Yes, the vast expanses of small towns and rural areas across Canada have very few black people (btw you forget to include both whites and aboriginals when making up your race categories) but Toronto is one of the most ethnically diverse cities on the planet, and absolutely the most diverse in North America. Literally half the population of Toronto was born in a foreign country (and not just one foreign country either like Miami which has the same immigration stats), and literally half of the population is not white. If you don't believe me look it up.
Toronto does have the largest Chinese population of any city outside of China. We also have the largest Tamil population of any city anywhere. We also have a huge population of folks who come from Jamaica and other carribean islands, and most of them are...wait for it...black (did you even bother to read goddesstogo's post, or follow the link she provided?)
We also have immigrants from every country you could possibly imagine in Africa, Latin and South America, the Middle East, Asia, the South Pacific, Europe. I don't know how many languages you regularly hear on the streets in Texas, but in Toronto there are always conversations going around you in several different languages.
You are right that Canada does not have the same black or hispanic population ratio as the US, for obvious historical and geographic reasons. But that is not the same as having "less races". We have just have less people.
I can only assume that when you came to Toronto you:
A) you did not visit during the last decade;
B) confined yourself to the CN Tower- East Side Mario's- Hard Rock Cafe-Hockey Hall of Fame vortex that is the exclusive domain of white American tourists, Chinese and Japanese tourists, and the 905/519 baseball cap brigade; or
C) actually went to Markham and never came to Toronto at all.
The GTA is a part of Canada, you know. Yes, Vancouver's immigrant population is predominately Asian. Yes, the vast expanses of small towns and rural areas across Canada have very few black people (btw you forget to include both whites and aboriginals when making up your race categories) but Toronto is one of the most ethnically diverse cities on the planet, and absolutely the most diverse in North America. Literally half the population of Toronto was born in a foreign country (and not just one foreign country either like Miami which has the same immigration stats), and literally half of the population is not white. If you don't believe me look it up.
Toronto does have the largest Chinese population of any city outside of China. We also have the largest Tamil population of any city anywhere. We also have a huge population of folks who come from Jamaica and other carribean islands, and most of them are...wait for it...black (did you even bother to read goddesstogo's post, or follow the link she provided?)
We also have immigrants from every country you could possibly imagine in Africa, Latin and South America, the Middle East, Asia, the South Pacific, Europe. I don't know how many languages you regularly hear on the streets in Texas, but in Toronto there are always conversations going around you in several different languages.
You are right that Canada does not have the same black or hispanic population ratio as the US, for obvious historical and geographic reasons. But that is not the same as having "less races". We have just have less people.
I can only assume that when you came to Toronto you:
A) you did not visit during the last decade;
B) confined yourself to the CN Tower- East Side Mario's- Hard Rock Cafe-Hockey Hall of Fame vortex that is the exclusive domain of white American tourists, Chinese and Japanese tourists, and the 905/519 baseball cap brigade; or
C) actually went to Markham and never came to Toronto at all.
Apr 19th, 2008, 07:51 PM
#30
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>>>Well Canada does not have to pay hardly anything in defence because that is covered by the USA, so Canada can spend more on social welfare<<<
Well, now I'm speechless. ShelliDawn is right. There isn't much point.
Well, now I'm speechless. ShelliDawn is right. There isn't much point.
Apr 20th, 2008, 01:20 AM
#31
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"Toronto does have the largest Chinese population of any city outside of China."
Really?? Greater than Singapore, Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) or other Asian cities with large numbers of overseas Chinese?
This seems like a bit of Toronto hyperbole to me.
Really?? Greater than Singapore, Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) or other Asian cities with large numbers of overseas Chinese?
This seems like a bit of Toronto hyperbole to me.
Apr 20th, 2008, 02:17 AM
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Look you can argue all you want but the truth is the truth. Canada as a whole has far less visible minorities than the US as a whole. Most non-whites in Canada are concentrated in areas of Toronto,Vancouver and Montreal. Having been throughout both countries the US is more multicultural. Canada have very few blacks compared to the US. I was in Toronto last summer and the number of blacks or latin americans was very small compared to the mid-size Texas city where I live that is much smaller than Toronto. Also, in my city, blacks and latin americans live side by side much more. Middle easterns racially are causcasion hence they are not white "by default." Truth is there is no way to compare whose more "racist" when it comes to blacks because Canada has so few. Also, Canada's non-visible minorites are mostly legal skilled immigrants. People who are skilled, regardless of race, are much more likely to not be poor and have the social problems that go along with it such as increased welfare usage and crime whereas in the US and especially in Texas, many of the migrants from Mexico that come here are poor and /or illegal and their are more social problems(regardless of race) associated with this. Texas spent 5 billion alone in free medical for poor people who migrated into Texas. Canada doesn't have the situation at least not anywhere close to the same degree so it is very different. Also, like I said, the US by default DOES provide much of the defence for Canada which lives under the protection of the US militarily. This as I said is not a criticism just the way things are so it does free up more money for social welfare.
Apr 20th, 2008, 02:23 AM
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I will ad that Canada is rapidly changing and is becoming more multicult at a very rapid rate. I've seen dramatic changes in the past 15 years and it will catch up to the US in this regards. Large scale multiculturalism is a much newer concept for Canadians having occurred more recently.
Apr 20th, 2008, 07:00 AM
#34
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>>>Really?? Greater than Singapore, Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) or other Asian cities with large numbers of overseas Chinese?<<<
I was surprised too but I just heard it on CBC radio about 2-3 days ago, either during a news story about the mayor's trip to China, or a story about the olympic protests. They said that Toronto (or the gta) has the largest Chinese population of any city outside of China, I rememeber it clearly because because I was so struck by it.
I was surprised too but I just heard it on CBC radio about 2-3 days ago, either during a news story about the mayor's trip to China, or a story about the olympic protests. They said that Toronto (or the gta) has the largest Chinese population of any city outside of China, I rememeber it clearly because because I was so struck by it.
Apr 20th, 2008, 07:01 AM
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Ronnie- in my last post I said: >You are right that Canada does not have the same black or hispanic population ratio as the US, for obvious historical and geographic reasons. But that is not the same as having "less races". We have just have less people<
My argument is with the contention that Canada has "fewer races" than the US. We have a much smaller population than the US and our population composite is different, but it is not true that "fewer races" call Canada home. And not only is Canada's immigrant population largely confined to the Vancouver, GTA, and Montreal areas, but so is the majority of the entire population of Canada.
>>>Also, like I said, the US by default DOES provide much of the defence for Canada which lives under the protection of the US militarily. This as I said is not a criticism just the way things are so it does free up more money for social welfare<<<
We have a social welfare system because we pay taxes to fund it. So could the US but it chooses not to. To suggest that Canada has universal health care only due to the good grace and liberal defence litary spending of the US is ugly americanism at its worst.
My argument is with the contention that Canada has "fewer races" than the US. We have a much smaller population than the US and our population composite is different, but it is not true that "fewer races" call Canada home. And not only is Canada's immigrant population largely confined to the Vancouver, GTA, and Montreal areas, but so is the majority of the entire population of Canada.
>>>Also, like I said, the US by default DOES provide much of the defence for Canada which lives under the protection of the US militarily. This as I said is not a criticism just the way things are so it does free up more money for social welfare<<<
We have a social welfare system because we pay taxes to fund it. So could the US but it chooses not to. To suggest that Canada has universal health care only due to the good grace and liberal defence litary spending of the US is ugly americanism at its worst.
Apr 20th, 2008, 07:45 AM
#36
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"I just heard it on CBC radio about 2-3 days ago"
And you believe everything you hear on the CBC??
"To suggest that Canada has universal health care only due to the good grace and liberal defence litary spending of the US is ugly americanism at its worst."
For sheer hyperbole, this takes the prize. Abu Ghraib is ugly Americanism. This is not.
Canada has universal health care because its citizems want it and want to pay for it. However, this doesn't disguise the fact that for many years Canada did get a free ride by underspending on defence. The US was neither big-hearted nor altruistic, but simply acted in its own interests.
And you believe everything you hear on the CBC??
"To suggest that Canada has universal health care only due to the good grace and liberal defence litary spending of the US is ugly americanism at its worst."
For sheer hyperbole, this takes the prize. Abu Ghraib is ugly Americanism. This is not.
Canada has universal health care because its citizems want it and want to pay for it. However, this doesn't disguise the fact that for many years Canada did get a free ride by underspending on defence. The US was neither big-hearted nor altruistic, but simply acted in its own interests.
Apr 20th, 2008, 09:09 AM
#37
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Well, I just came back to post that I tried looking for a reference re: Toronto's chinese population, and I can only find sources that say it's the biggest outside of Asia, and/or that it's the biggest in North America. So I wanted to say that either I heard wrong or the CBC got it wrong. But yes, I do generally believe the CBC more than other news sources.
We obviously have different definitions of "ugly americanism". To me it's a particular attitude that some types of Americans are known to adopt, not infliction of abuse and torture. Two different things entirely.
I really don't get this free ride business. Silly me, I keep forgetting that in order to have peace and security, we need to fight war and make enemies. Now that that's been taken care of, has Canada redeemed itself?
We obviously have different definitions of "ugly americanism". To me it's a particular attitude that some types of Americans are known to adopt, not infliction of abuse and torture. Two different things entirely.
I really don't get this free ride business. Silly me, I keep forgetting that in order to have peace and security, we need to fight war and make enemies. Now that that's been taken care of, has Canada redeemed itself?
Apr 20th, 2008, 12:23 PM
#38
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"Silly me, I keep forgetting that in order to have peace and security, we need to fight war and make enemies. Now that that's been taken care of, has Canada redeemed itself?"
This discussion is really getting into Lounge territory, so I'll make it brief.
You forget wrong. To have peace and security we need to respond to those who attack us and our allies. Canada is fighting in Afghanistan in a UN approved operation because a NATO ally was directly attacked by a terrorist group. We didn't make Al Qaeda our enemy--they made us theirs.
On the other hand, we rightly declined to take part in the Iraq adventure, which had nothing to do with Canadian security.
The "free ride" has to do with the fact that for 30 years or so from the late '60's on, Canada progressively reduced its defence spending and military capability to the point at which it could not even adequately patrol its own coastlines and airspace. The US did so, because it was in their own interest, and Canada's sovereignty suffered as a result.
Here endeth the lesson.
This discussion is really getting into Lounge territory, so I'll make it brief.
You forget wrong. To have peace and security we need to respond to those who attack us and our allies. Canada is fighting in Afghanistan in a UN approved operation because a NATO ally was directly attacked by a terrorist group. We didn't make Al Qaeda our enemy--they made us theirs.
On the other hand, we rightly declined to take part in the Iraq adventure, which had nothing to do with Canadian security.
The "free ride" has to do with the fact that for 30 years or so from the late '60's on, Canada progressively reduced its defence spending and military capability to the point at which it could not even adequately patrol its own coastlines and airspace. The US did so, because it was in their own interest, and Canada's sovereignty suffered as a result.
Here endeth the lesson.
Apr 20th, 2008, 05:35 PM
#39
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The mission in Afghanistan was driven by the US, and Canada offered itself up as a gesture of appeasement for not participating in Iraq. NATO countries other than the US and UK are keeping a minimal presence for form's sake and for the most part do not engage in armed conflict, and they certainly aren't launching offensives.
Canada, on the other hand, is deeply entrenched and suffering the highest proportional casualty rate of any NATO country in Afghanistan. Our national security is being comprimised by our involvement in that stupid pointless war, not strengthened.
So yes, it makes me sick to my stomach to hear anyone imply that our social system is a luxury we can afford only because we freeload off the US for protection.
As for Canada's defence spending, I don't understand why you would characterize what you described as a "free ride". The only ones who have gotten a free ride from our military practices of the last 25 years are CFN Consultants and Hill and Knowlton, and now the future's looking brighter than ever. Happy retirement, General Hillier.
Canada, on the other hand, is deeply entrenched and suffering the highest proportional casualty rate of any NATO country in Afghanistan. Our national security is being comprimised by our involvement in that stupid pointless war, not strengthened.
So yes, it makes me sick to my stomach to hear anyone imply that our social system is a luxury we can afford only because we freeload off the US for protection.
As for Canada's defence spending, I don't understand why you would characterize what you described as a "free ride". The only ones who have gotten a free ride from our military practices of the last 25 years are CFN Consultants and Hill and Knowlton, and now the future's looking brighter than ever. Happy retirement, General Hillier.
Apr 20th, 2008, 06:11 PM
#40
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Laverendry Im highly disagreeing with you and
am no longer laid back and relaxed!!!
We have a peace loving population. Why should we have a military to fight the battles that US promotes when the great majority of Canadians dont support participation in?
am no longer laid back and relaxed!!!
We have a peace loving population. Why should we have a military to fight the battles that US promotes when the great majority of Canadians dont support participation in?
