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First time quandry`
My wife and I have 5-6 weeks to spend in the Vancouver/Rockies area and in the coastal area between Vancouver and Anchorage.
We are keen to use rail transport, Alaska Marine Highway System and to stay in B&B style accommodations. We can begin our trip at either end (Anchorage or Vancouver) My reading of this forum and of everything else I can get suggests that we see the "must sees of Vancouver Victoria Banff Jasper Lake Louise and take the trip from Jasper to Prince Rupert. In Alaska we take the ferry and get off and stay at Ketchikan Petersburg Sitka and Juneau and take the rail trip from Seward to Anchorage. My QUANDRY is how to sequence all of this. Can any experienced Fodorites please help me untangle this web? |
Hello Macca,
I have not been to Alaska, so cannot help you with that portion of your trip. In another thread you said you were contemplating a fall trip. In that case I would suggest starting in the north and moving southwards. I'll pick up your itinerary at Prince Rupert, which I assume you will have reached by ferry from Alaska. From Prince Rupert you could drive or you could catch VIA Rail's "Skeena," and proceed through Prince George to Jasper. In theory you then could catch VIA Rail's "Canadian" from Jasper to Vancouver, but that would leave out Lake Louise and Banff. The Icefields Parkway, which connects Jasper and Lake Louise, does not have rail service, but definitely is worth seeing. So ... I would recommend you drive from Jasper to Lake Louise and Banff, and then drive to Vancouver. If you really want to go from Banff / Lake Louise to Vancouver by train, you could catch the Rocky Mountaineer. However, you need to be aware that it'll be expensive. I guess you also could drive from Jasper to Lake Louise and Banff, drive back to Jasper, drop off your car, and go to Vancouver by VIA Rail. Once you're in Vancouver, there is heaps of information on this forum on how to get to Victoria and back. The above mentioned itinerary omits the ferry voyage from Prince Rupert, through Canada's "Inside Passage" to Port Hardy at the north end of Vancouver Island. I'm not sure how you could fit that in without seeing Prince Rupert twice. If you look at a map, the things you want to see describe a route that roughly looks like the letter "b". Starting with the Prince Rupert,you could do a route that forms the circle of the "b." This would be true whether you did it clockwise or counterclockwise: Prince Rupert - Jasper - Lake Louise - Banff - Lake Louise again - Vancouver - Victoria - Port Hardy - back to Prince Rupert or the other way round. I don't know how you're going to accomplish this trip if you aren't prepared to drive some of the way. Certainly in Jasper, Banff and Yoho National Parks many of the prime attractions are not on the rail route. Rental car drop off fees may become an issue. Here's a website where you can see weather statistics for Canada's major towns and cities: http://www.worldweather.org/056/m056.htm You'll notice that Vancouver's precipitation doubles from September to October. As you can see, there is a lot of precipitation in Prince Rupert in any month of the year, but September's is considerably more than August's, and October's is considerably more than September's. I would think it would be a good idea to aim to complete this trip by Canadian Thanksgiving (October 10) or thereabouts. Hope that helps. |
Thanks for the "on the ground" assistance. I shall certainly be pouring over maps etc to check out the suggestions.
We are happy to drive, we just prefer to sit back in the train and see the scenery. That's probably a result of a decade of travelling through europe each year. This is our first venture to northern europe |
Woops ....northern america
Sorry |
Note that "the Canadian" runs from Jasper to Vancouver overnight so you will miss much of the scenery along the way.
Ken |
Beginning to look like we will need to change plans and do some driving. Maybe also look at earlier in the year
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thanks to replies and much more research I now have a clearer picture for our trip.
I have some more queries. We plan to travel from Prince Regent to Jasper by rail with the overnight syop at Prince George. We arrive in Jasper on 20th September. We need to be in Seattle by the 3rd October for our flight bak to Australia. Considering we have not seen Vancouver, would love to see Lake Louise, Banff, Vancouver and Victoria, can I get advice as to the best route to ensure we have time to see the wonderful countryside. What are the must sees, and how would we be best off travelling around? |
Hello macca,
Assume you will have reached Prince Rupert by ferry from Alaska. Upon arriving in Jasper, you might consider this itinerary. Sep 20 - Skeena arrives Jasper 16:52. Check into accommodation. Look around Jasper townsite. Sep 21 – Do Angel Glacier / Cavell Meadows hike, walk in Maligne Canyon. You will need a car for this. In fact everything I say assumes you will have a car from now at least until you reach Vancouver. O/N in Jasper again. Sep 22 – Drive Icefields Parkway to Lake Louise. Stop en route at Athabasca Falls, Sunwapta Falls, Peyto Lake Lookout. Optional Snocoach ride on Athabasca Glacer at Columbia Icefields. Optional hike from Num-Ti-Jah Lodge to Bow Falls. O/N in Lake Louise. Sep 23 – Banff townsite, Johnston Canyon. O/N in LL. Sep 24 – Moraine Lake, Lake Louise, Takakkaw Falls, Emerald Lake. O/N in LL. Sep 25 – Drive to Kelowna. Sep 26 – Drive to Vancouver. Sep 27 - Vancouver. Sep 28 – Vancouver. Sep 29 – Morning ferry to Victoria. Visit Butchart Gardens in the afternoon. Sep 30 – Look around downtown Victoria in the morning. Afternoon ferry to Seattle. Oct 1 – Seattle. Oct 2 – Seattle. Oct 3 – Fly home. |
Thank you for a very informative itinerary. It is really hard to imagine the distances and the conditions for this suggestion when we are so unfamiliar withg the area. So please be patient with my queries.
Is it possible to do a lot/most/all of what you are suggesting with fewer stops along the way? ie stay at fewer locations and travel out. We have no problem with the car (does that mean that we will miss the Rocky Mountaineer?) and does that matter if we drive the route you have suggested. As we are in early planning mode it is great to explore all the possibilities. After all how often do we aussies get to visit your great landscape? |
I think that Judy has given you a very good itinerary for what you want to see. I certainly would not want to do it with fewer overnight stops than she has suggested.
I would stick with a car and forget the Rocky Mountaineer. It's expensive, and you can cover most of the route by car. If you wanted to follow its route, you would continue on the Trans-Canada Highway to Kamloops and then down the Fraser Canyon. However, I think the Okanagan Valley is more interesting, and a nice change of scenery. Once you have settled on your basic itinerary, there are several options along the way. For example, at Revelstoke, you can stay on the TC, turning at Sicamous or Salmon Arm to get to Kelowna; alternatively, you can turn south on hwy 23 along the Arrow Lakes through Nakusp to Fauquier and then on to Vernon and Kelowna. Similarly, if you are in a hurry to get to Vancouver, from Kelowna, follow 97C (the "connector") to 5 (the Coquihalla0. It's mostly 4 lane and quite scenic, and easy driving. However, a much more scenic route would be to continue down the Okanagan Valley and then pick up Hwy 3 to Hope and on to Vancouver. Kelowna is a small city with lots of accommodation, restaurants etc. You may find it a nice change, or opt to stay in one of the many small towns nearby in the Valley. The Okanagan is also one of the prime wine regions of Canada, and there are many vineyards to visit, although, as Australians, this is old hat and may not be of great interest to you. Enjoy your trip. |
Hello macca,
If you haven't already come across these websites, you can get a sense of driving distances and times from www.freetrip.com and www.mapquest.com They are only a rough guide, however, as they don't tell you how much stuff there is to stop and see along the way. The Icefields Parkway (Hwy #93), which connects Jasper and Lake Louise, is particularly rich in scenic lookout points, and takes longer to drive than the nominal distance suggests. |
>>>Is it possible to do a lot/most/all of what you are suggesting with fewer stops along the way? ie stay at fewer locations and travel out.<<<
Actually, my suggested itinerary attempts to do that as much as possible. It may not be immediately apparent, because of my use of abbreviations, but this is the break out of the suggested number of nights in each place: Jasper - 2 nights Lake Louise - 3 nights Kelowna - 1 night Vancouver - 3 nights Victoria - 1 night Seattle - 3 nights I cheated and found, by looking at one of your other posts, that you live in Bunbury, Western Australia. I've never been to WA myself, but the trusty Travelmate.com.au website enabled me to compare distances in Alberta and British Columbia with those in WA. This may help you to understand why I've suggested the number of stops that I have. <b>Jasper</b> to <b>Lake Louise</b> is 219 km. The Free Trip website says it takes 2 hours 20 minutes. So that's a bit more than the 175 km from Bunbury to Perth. However, if you do even the minimal activities I've suggested, I don't think you should bank on doing the trip in anything less than 5 hours. It's nothing for us to take 7 hours to do this drive when we take first time visitors on it. If you do nothing else on this route, go to the Peyto Lake Lookout. Peyto is one of the most beautiful lakes in the Canadian Rockies. Jasper is sufficiently far from Lake Louise and Banff that you cannot use Jasper as a base for seeing the sights around those more southerly points. Lake Louise is a much more feasible base for seeing not only the scenery around Lake Louise itself, but also the scenery around Banff townsite to the east and in Yoho National Park to the west. Lake Louise to <b>Banff</b> is 70 km, and takes about 50 minutes. However, if you take the Bow Valley Parkway (Hwy #1A) and walk into Johnston Canyon, you could add an hour or two to the trip (depending on whether you walk only as far as the Lower Falls or walk further to the Upper Falls – I recommend the latter if possible). Depending on how much you like strolling through a town and window-shopping, etc., you could chew up a couple of hours in Banff townsite. To my mind, a better use of your time would be to visit Banff townsite briefly and then drive through <b>Kananaskis Country</b> as follows. Drive east from Banff on the TransCanada Highway till you reach the hamlet of Seebe (basically just a gas station). There you could turn south onto Hwy #40. If you wish you could drive past Kananaskis Lakes and over the Highwood Pass. At an elevation of 2,206 metres (7,238 feet), the Highwood Pass is the highest stretch of paved road in Canada. At some suitable point turn around and drive back. Just north of the Kananaskis Lakes, turn west onto the unpaved Smith Dorien Trail (Route #782). It takes you past Spray Lakes and brings you out at the town of Canmore. From Canmore drive west on the TransCanada Highway, back past Banff, and back to your base of Lake Louise. The one caveat is that I don’t know what rules rental car companies may have with respect to driving their cars on unpaved roads. If they don’t permit it, it’s still worth visiting Kananaskis Country on paved Hwy #40. Here is a map of Kananaskis Country that will show you what I’m talking about: http://www.kananaskisvalley.com/mapbg.html The day on which you look at Moraine Lake, Lake Louise, Takakkaw Falls and Emerald Lake will involve only short distances. However, to walk around these places and do justice to them will take some time. Walking to the top of the pile of rocks at the end of Moraine Lake is a must. The view from there is one of the best in the Canadian Rockies. At Lake Louise, the 1.6 km uphill hike to Fairview Lookout provides a very rewarding view of the lake. Emerald Lake is another must. There are those who consider Emerald to be the most beautiful lake in the Canadian Rockies. More in next post ...... |
Lake Louise to <b>Kelowna</b> via Salmon Arm is 409 km or 4 hours 15 minutes (not counting stops). According to the Travelmate website, this compares with the distance from Perth to Albany. Again there would be things to stop and see. For one, Kalamalka Lake with its interesting colours, located just south of Vernon, is worth a stop.
If you followed laverendrye's suggestion of driving from Kelowna to <b>Vancouver</b> via Hwy #3, you would go through lovely <b>Manning Provincial Park</b>. A good thing to do would be to go south from Kelowna on Hwy #97 and turn west on Hwy #97C just before you got to Peachland. At Aspen Grove, turn south onto Hwy #5A, and follow that as far as Princeton. This stretch of Hwy #5A is very scenic. At Princeton, pick up Hwy #3, and take it through Manning Provincial Park to Hope. At Hope you can head up Hwy #1 till you cross the Fraser River. Then take Hwy #7 to Vancouver. If you take the shortest route from Kelowna to Vancouver, using the Coquihalla Highway (Hwy #5), it will be 370 km or 4 hours. The more scenic route I've described will add considerably to your driving time – in fact it will turn it into quite a long day -- but is worth it in my opinion. The overnight stop in Kelowna is not mandatory, but I do recommend it. You could in theory drive from Lake Louise to Vancouver via Kamloops in a day. If you used the Coquihalla Highway, that drive would be 740 km (7 hours 30 minutes not counting stops). Driving from Lake Louise to Vancouver in one go would be similar to driving from Albany to Norseman via Esperance in Western Australia, which Travelmate says is 678 km / 7 hours 44 minutes. However, I think the Okanagan Valley, in which Kelowna is situated, is worth the detour and an overnight stop. In Vancouver, it goes without saying that you should see <b>Stanley Park</b>. One of my favourite things in Vancouver is the <b>Museum of Anthropology</b> at the University of British Columbia. It depicts the traditional lifestyle of the First Nations people of the west coast. Vancouver and Victoria have good public transportation systems. Whether or not you need a car in those cities is a debatable point. If you ask, you probably will get opinions from both sides. If you use the Pacific Coach Lines <b>bus service</b> to get from downtown Vancouver to downtown Victoria, it will take you 3.5 hours. The bus ride from downtown Vancouver to the ferry at Tsawwassen will be 1 hr 15 min. The ferry crossing from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay on Vancouver Island will take 1 hour 35 minutes. Finally, the bus ride from Swartz Bay to dowontown Victoria will take 45 minutes. So, if you leave downtown Vancouver at 8.45 a.m., for example, you’ll reach downtown Victoria at 12.20 p.m. The ferry crossing through some of the Southern Gulf Islands is pretty. If you choose to keep your rental car and drive it onto the Tsawwassen – Swartz Bay ferry, you would be well advised to make a reservation at www.bcferries.ca . If you use the Victoria Clipper (pedestrian only) ferry from Victoria to <b>Seattle</b>, the crossing will take you 2 hours 45 minutes. If you want to take your rental car to Seattle, one of the options is the Coho Ferry, which takes 95 minutes to do the crossing. However, the Coho does not take you to Seattle, but rather to Port Angeles, and then, as I understand it, you’d have to drive 135 km / 2 hours from Port Angeles to Seattle. I have not used the Victoria – Seattle ferries myself, and am going from what I have learned here at Fodor’s. The issue of which Victoria – Seattle ferry to use is a topic in its own right. Also, I don’t know what sort of drop off fees you might incur if you picked up a rental car in Canada and dropped it off in the USA. Again that is an issue that deserves its own research. More ...... |
Odds and Ends ......
<b>Souvenirs</b> I don’t know what your approach to buying souvenirs is. My husband and I usually travel on a fairly modest budget. Although we’re quite frugal most of the time, we usually budget for the purchase of one nice item in a given country. If that approach appeals to you, I suggest you wait till you get to Vancouver or Victoria. There you can find galleries that feature Inuit soapstone carvings and Northwest Coast sculptures, paintings and jewellery. Just as Australian Aboriginal art is a distinctive style, so too are the Inuit and Northwest Coast styles in Canada. Something you may want to consider is a hand knitted Cowichan (Qwu'utsun') sweater (jumper). You can see an example of one here: http://www.cvvm.com/cvvmzine/sweater.htm <b>Time Zones</b> On the train ride from Prince George to Jasper, you will lose an hour as you cross from Pacific Daylight Time to Mountain Daylight Time. When you drive from Lake Louise to Kelowna, you will gain an hour when you cross from MDT back into PDT. (The boundary is somewhere between Golden and Revelstoke.) <b>Sunset Times</b> Another issue that is relevant is how many daylight hours you have for sight seeing. When you’re in the Canadian Rockies, sunset will be at about 7.30 p.m. When you’re in Vancouver, Victoria, and Seattle, sunset will be at about 6.50 p.m. Hope that helps. |
macca,
I vistited Australia last year and had the very same problem as you visualising distances! The itinerary Judy in Calgary gave you looks really good - especially the details. The only thing I personally wouldn't like about it is all the driving. To reduce the drive time, you may want to consider the following: 20th - arrive in Jasper 21st - Jasper - pick up car 22nd - Jasper 23rd - Drive to Lake Louise/Banff 24th - Lake Louise/Banff 25th - Lake Louise/Banff 26th - drive to Calgary (1.5-2hrs), drop off car, catch a late afternoon flight to Vancouver, arrive early evening. 27th - Vancouver 28th - Vancouver 29th - morning ferry to Victoria 30th - Victoria 1st - morning ferry to Seattle 2nd - Seattle 3rd - flight home You can get a cheap flight to Vancouver (try westjet.ca). Your reduced rental and gas costs may even cover this. The drive to Vancouver is nice, but is probably about 13hrs of driving, so you are spending 2 days in the car. You wouldn't need a car again after you drop it off in Calgary, although you might want to consider getting one for the day in Vicoria to drive yourself to the Butchart gardens. A car is just an added expense and hassle on the ferrys and in the big cities. Shop around for your car rental, the "drop fee" that agencies charge for picking up the car in one city and dropping in another varies. I know that there is a National, Avis, Budget and Hertz in Jasper. I added the extra day you gain by flying to Jasper, I think you would appreciate 3 nights in Jasper after two days on the train - and 3 nights in Jasper is hardly excessive! I also added another night to Victoria - I hate one night stays. |
Hello macca,
I think sockboy has made a good point about cutting out some of the land journey by flying from Calgary to Vancouver. Although there is some lovely scenery between Lake Louise and Vancouver, his suggestion does cut out one-night stops, which certainly has some merit. You'd be in a better position than anyone else to know how much you like to drive. However, since you asked if you really do have to make as many stops as I'd suggested, it's entirely possible that you'd welcome the break that flying would give you. I thought I was finished giving you miscellaneous information, but now I’ve thought of a couple of other points. <b>Weather</b> The Weather Underground website’s Trip Planner feature says that, over the last four years, during the period that you’ll be in the Canadian Rockies, the average daily high has been +14 deg C and the average daily low has been +0.5 deg C. But I know from experience that it’s dangerous to rely on averages. The devil is in the details, as they say. Over just four years, the daily high during that period has ranged from +0.5 deg C to +27 deg C. I well remember 2001. It was a freaky year. It is not common for Banff to reach +27 deg C on September 25th, as it did that year. The daily low has ranged from –8 deg C to +12 deg C. In Vancouver, Victoria and Seattle, daily highs are likely to range from +10 deg C to +20 deg C, with the average falling somewhere around +15 deg C. Lows could be between +5 deg C and +14 deg C, with the average low falling around +10 deg C. You could encounter rain at the coast. You could expect Prince Rupert’s temperatures, some 10 days earlier, to be in the same range as those in Vancouver – Victoria – Seattle at the end of the month. Prince Rupert, however, is more likely to be rainy than the other cities. If you have not already done so, you can use the Weather Underground website’s Trip Planner feature to consult temperatures at your destinations in Alaska: http://www.weatherunderground.com/tripplanner/index.asp <b>Clothing for Western Canada</b> Dress in the Canadian Rockies is casual, and it is in Vancouver and Victoria too. All restaurants in the mountains are casual at lunchtime. Moderately priced mountain restaurants are casual at dinnertime too. Upscale restaurants in the Canadian Rockies are smart casual at dinnertime. (For smart casual you don’t need a jacket/coat or tie. However, you need footwear that’s a step up from hiking boots. A nice pair of slacks and a long sleeved shirt / blouse and / or a nice sweater / jumper will do fine.) The situation is similar in Vancouver and Victoria, except that I’ve never been to a fine dining establishment in those cities at lunchtime, so I don’t know what the dress code is. I imagine that if you have lunch in a fancy restaurant in the city, the kind that business people frequent, it might be smart casual at lunchtime – but I’m not speaking from experience. But more important than restaurant attire is survival attire. You’ll need hiking boots and sturdy socks. You’ll also need to pack layers of clothing. In the somewhat unlikely event that you encounter a +27 deg C day in Banff, you’ll need a short-sleeved shirt (or you’ll want to roll up the sleeves of a long sleeved shirt). For that time of year, I like to wear long sleeved cotton turtleneck tops. I then have a sweater or fleece top to wear on top of that, and finally I have a spring/fall, hooded parka to wear as an outer layer. My spring/fall parka has a waterproof layer on the outside and a fleece lining on the inside. You probably would think of it as a winter jacket in Australia. I sometimes have worn lightweight long underwear in the mountains at that time of year. Some Fodorites and my own kids think I’m a weather wuss, but I do like to dress in such as way that I’ll be comfortable. Just in case you encounter weather that’s at the cooler end of the spectrum, you’d do well to bring a woollen cap / beanie (all the more so if your jacket doesn’t have a built-in hood), gloves and a scarf. An umbrella would come in usefully in the coastal cities. |
This is a first response reply because I have to digest the mass of information I am receiving.
First THANKS Second As an aussie who has travelled to europe each year (like you Judy- "on a modest budget" I have always used the Fodors site to do my planning. Third I am "blown away by the detailed and informative feedback I am getting Fourth Yes I live in SW WEestern Australia, love it, and am happy to help anyone with their visit here Now, let me digest this wonderful information and I will be back\Thanks |
Having digested the excellent suggestions, some clarification and questions
We are there to see Alaska and western Canada Up to Prince Rupert we are OK Judy, comparative distances and stopover information is really invaluable! Thanks If we want as little time in Seattle as possible where would we be best extending our stay? We really enjoy rail travel, and whilst it is expensive feel it will be great (or is the rail trip from Prince Rupert to Jasper similar / compensation?) IF we took the Rocky Mountaineer would it be best to take it from Calgary of along the route? We have a preference for B&B style accommodations, not really feeling at home in hotels and hotel chains. I have begun to check out the websites especially looking at mid range accommodations. Any suggestions on possible accommodations to look at? |
Hello macca,
>>>Thanks.<<< You're very welcome.:) >>>If we want as little time in Seattle as possible where would we be best extending our stay?<<< That is a tough question to answer. If you like hiking, I would try to include a third night in Jasper, as sockboy suggested. If you have a day that you can add to either of Vancouver or Victoria, it would help to know if you like larger or smaller cities. I like both cities very much. Vancouver has a population of 2 million. It’s a modern, cosmopolitan city, with lots of urban park space, set against a dramatic backdrop of mountains. Victoria has a population of 335,000. It certainly is a charming city. North Americans tend to think it has a British feel to it, and tend to think it’s cute. I’ve heard that Europeans, who have access to the real thing, are not that enchanted by Victoria’s supposedly British feel. Sockboy’s suggested itinerary gives you 1-1/2 days in Victoria. If you have a day to spare over and above that, I would be inclined to allocate it to Vancouver. I think it would be nice to spend no less than three days in Vancouver. More coming ...... |
>>>We really enjoy rail travel, and whilst it is expensive feel it will be great (or is the rail trip from Prince Rupert to Jasper similar / compensation?)
I can’t speak about any of these train trips from personal experience. I can only tell you what I know from the Internet. The Rocky Mountaineer train’s “cheaper” Red Leaf fare from Banff to Vancouver will cost 729 CAD + 7% GST per person sharing during the period that you’ll be travelling. So that would come to 1,560 CAD for the two of you. Now admittedly that includes train fare, meals, and a night’s accommodation in Kamloops. One of the benefits of this train are that it travels during daylight hours only, so you don’t miss any scenery. Cold breakfasts and lunches are served to Red Leaf passengers in their seats. Red Leaf passengers do not have access to a domed observation car. “Gold Leaf” passengers have access to domed observation cars. They have hot meals served in a dining car. During the period that you’ll be travelling the Gold Leaf fare from Banff to Vancouver will be 1,429 CAD + 7% GST per person sharing. Therefore it would come to a total of 3,058 CAD for the two of you. You can find out more about the Rocky Mountaineer at: http://www.rockymountaineer.com/ Although I think it’s an inferior trip, because it travels overnight, I’ve just looked at VIA Rail’s fare from Jasper to Vancouver – for comparison purposes. I’m surprised to find that it’s not as cheap as I would have thought. Even it is 852.79 CAD per person before GST for a double bedroom. With GST that would come to 1,705.58 for the two of you. If you’re over 60, the senior citizens’ rate for a double bedroom is 767.19 CAD per person before GST. With GST it would come to a total of 1,534.38 CAD. A double berth combination would come to a total of 1,231.57 CAD for two adults and 1,108.52 CAD for two passengers who are over 60 years of age. The above-mentioned Sleeper Class fares include hot meals served in a dining car, and sleeper cars have shared shower facilities. Comfort Super (economy) class (reclining seats, meals cost extra, no bed and no shower facilities) would cost a total of 331.70 CAD for two people regardless of whether they were adults or senior citizens. I don’t know if I would like to sit in a seat, even if it was a reclining seat, for 17 hours and 20 minutes. >>>IF we took the Rocky Mountaineer would it be best to take it from Calgary of along the route?<<< If you do take the Rocky Mountaineer, I suggest you take it from Banff. |
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