Worried about Racism
 

Hello everyone,

I am an American citizen of Asian Indian descent, and am planning a trip to Australia and New Zealand soon. I guess I have some apprehension about the possibility of racism in Australia - because it has been mentioned in various media outlets at times.

For those who are more familiar with Australia, is it indeed a place which is somewhat racist against people of non Anglo-Saxon descent? If so, is the racism usually behavioral, verbal or physical? Are my concerns founded or am I freaked out for no good reason at all? Thanks in advance for any advice!

Do you know of Sachin Tendulkar or VVS Laxman or Rahul Dravid?

Then no worries,mate.

We had no problems with racism in Australia...my husband of japanese ancestry and mixed kids fit right in...there are tons of Asians and other minorities in the cities these days.

Hello Air1975,

I lived in Melbourne from July 1997 to January 2000. I must tell you I moved to Australia with my head filled with preconceived notions about the place (you know, images of Crocodile Dundee and that sort of thing). I'd heard Australian men were male chauvenist pigs, I'd heard Australians were racists, etc. In fact, if you'd asked me where I wanted to live, Australia would have been relatively low on the list, but my husband got a transfer to Australia and we felt we had to make the best of it.

Every single preconceived idea with which we arrived was blown out of the water. Australia was really different (that is to say much better) than we were expecting.

I cannot tell you how friendly and considerate I found people to be. Now admittedly I'm fair skinned, blue eyed, on so on, so that may have made things easier for me. But I found enormous variety in Australia, in terms of the people's ethnic backgrounds, in terms of different national cuisines that had been embraced by Australians, and many other aspects of Australian life.

I think the stereotypical image of Australia dates back to a time (maybe up to the 1950s) when Australia did in fact receive most of its immigrants from Europe (with a large proportion of them coming from the British Isles).

But Australia has changed enormously in the last few decades.

I always tell people bound for Australia to be hearty in their compliments of Australian beer. This may sound as if I'm trying to brush off your concerns, but I'm not. I'm being serious. Expressing a preference for some watery (in Australian eyes) North American beer is a cardinal sin. THAT is the sort of thing you need to watch out for when you go to Australia. ;)

I'll be glad to discuss this in more detail, either here on the forum, or by private e-mail if you prefer.

"Because it has been mentioned in various media outlets at times"? Air1975, as this is news to this Australian, can you be just a wee bit more specific?

I suggest that you extend your researches beyond these "certain media outlets", as to the best of my knowledge and belief your fears are entirely and in fact absurdly unfounded.

Are we entirely free of racism? Of course not. Is any country, the United States included, free of racism? If so, please supply details forthwith and I'll consider emigration.

I suggest that you will find far, far less underlying racism in Australia than in many Asian nations, the country of your forebears included. As I'm sure you know, the pernicious Indian caste system is deeply rooted in ancient paleface-vs darkskinned race conflicts.

I'm reminded of an outraged lady who tackled me in a New Hampshire convenience store about male chauvinism in Australia. Her sole exposure to this country had been a TV documentary dealing with some godforsaken opal mining town in the outback, inhabited by the sort of people you'd expect to find in such a place. All my efforts to convince her that most Austraian males don't live in holes in the ground and beat our wives for sport every night went for naught. Perhaps this illustrates the danger of reliance on media reports.

I expect that if you pay us the honour of a visit you'll be treated with the courtesy that Australians of Indian or any other extraction generally receive. If you don't, we have quite rigorous laws againt racial discrimination and vilification. As you'd expect in a successfully multiracial, multicultural nation.

Mate, turn off the TV and do some proper research. Sorry, but if I sound annoyed at this sort of uninformed nonsense, it's because I am.

Canada not only has had a policy of multiculturalism since the 70s, but a law enacted around 1988. I'm think Australia is the only other country in the world with a multicultural policy (I don't know about law).

Laws don't legislate love so you can still walk down a street here, and if you are a visible minority you could be called a name. It won't be your loss and it's unlikely to happen.

I'm in my 70s, a third generation Japanese Canadian, interned by my government in 1942. Things have changed.

Come to Canada, go to Australia and be happy.

>>>>>>Generally I agree with the tone below except Judy's which is a little naive. As a white Anglo Saxon I never got grief at school.<<<<<<

Yes, of course my post was "naive" in the sense that a brief message here does not permit one the space to include all the nuances and qualifications one might prefer. Brevity necessarily makes for a rather one dimensional thumbnail sketch.

Although I felt Australia had made great strides towards becoming a multicultural society, it was experiencing challenges in reconciling what for a lack of a better term I'll call its mainstream society with its Aboriginal community. (This is based on observations when I lived there from July 1997 to January 2000.)

There were Australians who were very concerned about this issue, and I witnessed a number of "Aboriginal reconciliation" initiatives. These efforts notwithstanding, Aboriginal Australians still had lower incomes, poorer health, etc., than what I'll call "mainstream Australians."

We have exactly this challenge in Canada. Both countries share a legacy of having taken Aboriginal children from their parents and putting them in boarding schools, forbidding them to speak their native languages, and so on.

I don't know who is to "blame" for the current situation, and I don't know what the "solutions" to the challenges are. I know some people have been trying hard to achieve "reconciliation" in both Canada and Australia. And yet Aboriginal peoples continue to have lower life expectancy, higher rates of infant mortality, and so on.

But the person who started this thread, Air1975, is not what we in Canada call a "First Nations" person. Rather he (she?) described himself (herself?) as an American citizen of Asian Indian descent. While I cannot GUARANTEE Air1975 a consistently friendly reception in Australia or Canada, I think he (she) has a good chance of being well received in either country.

I really don't feel like getting into this topic in any more depth here, in a public setting. As I offered before, I'm more than willing to discuss it by private e-mail.

my wife and i are of asian indian background (born and raised in usa).

we went to new zealand last year for two weeks. except for one town (hokitika, south island), everyone was extremely friendly and warm. although no one said or did anything rascist in hokitika, we were not received as warmly here. observing how others were treated, i suspect it was racial, but it simply could have not been a very friendly town to begin with.

Re-reading my post I see that I got a little too indignant with air1975 - sorry about that. Judy_in_Calgary made my points better, and more politely (as you'd expect from a Canadian).

I hope that we're not all that parochial about our beer, though, Judy. I might draw some fire over this, but the fact is that base-level Australian beers have no more character than Bud, and to add to my heresy, Sam Adams Boston Lager knocks the socks off most of them. Those looking for good Oz beer should start with the premium James Squire range in my opinion.

As Travelnick points out, of course Australia's massive postwar immigrant inflow has not been without some friction, and in some quarters sporadic resentment, but this is not the same thing as widespread Anglo-Celtic racism. The friction points are fairly specific and complex, and currently tend to focus on Sydney's Middle Eastern community, primarily as a result of perceptions of high crime rates and fears that they may form unassimilable ghettos. These fears are as old as immigration and were first expressed about the Irish, who if not Anglo-Saxon were at least white and Christian.

One certainty, as Bill Bryson observed about the US experience, is that each wave of arrivals, once safely settled, will claim that while immigration has unquestionably been a good thing to date, it should now cease forthwith. On the whole, though, Australia's immigration scheme has been remarkably successful, and the official "multicultural" policy is working pretty well. It's worth noting that Australia established the world's first government-funded multicultural TV and radio service over 20 years ago.

The situation of the original inhabitants is shameful, of course, and it must be admitted that some racism exists in this area - mostly among some poor and undereducated whites who resent what they see as "handouts" to Aboriginals. New Zealand has a better record with its Maori people, although a cynic might put that down to the fact that the Maori mounted a more effective military response to European settlement than did the Aboriginal peoples, and succeeded in negotiating a treaty.

Cultural imperialism? We've all been there. Children from Cajun communities in Louisiana were once punished for speaking their French patois at school.

John71cove:

You've taken an honest reply to a question too seriously.

I loved New Zealand and its people. But, i've been in lots of places where people are not friendly for one reason or another. It's almost never rascism.

That said, rascism doesn't have to be verbal or physical. And when it happens often you can sense it.

And by the way, all cultures to some degree or another have rascist elements.

Yeah and my shift key now works.

I think the average Australian doesn't care what colour your skin is as long as you are pleasant in your dealings with them. They will probably ask about your 'race' because they are interested in overseas visitors to Australia.

What happened to the post from john71cove that michi replied to? Did it go into the big Fodors black hole?

Neil:
I'm wondering the same thing.

Johnj_au's post - 1st response - mentioned Tendulkar, Laxman and/or Dravid! These are Indian cricketers (who unfortunately for them, all got out for very low scores yesterday, in the one-day final!)

What was amazing, and has been all summer, is the incredible number of Indians at each cricket match. They can't all be tourists. The Indian team has been touring for 2 months, and the crowds have been enormous. Yesterday in Sydney it was estimated at about 40% Indian. Amazing!

There have been few problems (other than alcohol fuelled incidents), but you get idiots everywhere.

I'd suggest you read up a bit on cricket - as you'll certainly be asked about it!

Have fun!

Perceptions of racism can generally occur when you are in another English speaking country and you are not used to some common words used. For instance I always cringed when I was referred to an an "alian" in the USA, when at airports, and particularly when only those of us who were "alians" were targeted to have to remove everything from our suitcases every time we boarded a flight. The meaning of alian also includes (different in nature and adverse ) so I just wonder sometimes where the Political correctness Police are when these terms are decided upon. Certainly not an endearing term and certainly not welcoming when all the alians are shunted to one corner to have to remove everything for the umpteenth time from suitcases. I know that you will all tell me that after Sept 11th etc etc but must it be as blatant as to muster all the alians into one corner making us feel that we certainly must be alian and different to warrent this attention. Surely the word foreigner or even people of other countries would have less connotations that the word Alian ( shades of Star Wars)

The deputy editor of Kolkata's "Hindustan Times", Soumya Bhattacharya, who is currently working with the "Sydney Morning Herald", reports being greeted at Sydney Airport by an immigration official with the words, "You here for the cricket, mate?"

His article, "One Magical Summer", appears in the SMH's "Spectrum" section, 7 Feb. It concludes:
"You have no need to feel iffy about a country where 'relaxation is the aim'. There's nothing to be worried about if 'no worries' is your mantra. People have killed for less. This is a magical city in a magical country - or that's how it appears to a visitor like me. It's easy to fall in love with. And it will be hard to forget."

Judging by his very positive article Mr Bhattarcharya seems not to have encountered any racist treatment (not that I would have expected him to).

air1975, if you do take Margo's advice and read up on cricket, would you be kind enough to explain it to me?

lizF, certainly anyone who's seen the "Alien" movies would be alarmed to be described that way in the US. YOu could be forgiven for thinking you'd had the mother of all bad hair days.

Neil Oz has been told about my hair because I am still having those bad hair days. Just about jumped out of my skin this morning when walking past the mirror. What a dreadful way to wake up!

Neil

Your responses give me a good laugh and helps lighten up this thread.

I think air1975 asked an honest question and deserved (and got) some intelligent answers.

Unfortunately, in Canada, racism or racial comments sometimes depends on the racial background or the racial mix. For example, my son who is of Asian background and is married to an Afro-Canadian still gets racist comments which hurt, but they chooses to ignore. Whereas our other five kids are married to Caucasians and do not.

I hope air 1975 goes to Australia without apprehensions and enjoys a great visit.

I've enjoyed your posts too, michi. And I hope I haven't sounded like I'm looking at my country through rose-coloured glasses. There are undercurrents of xenophobia and racism everywhere and they're most likely to emerge when people feel threatened, fearful of losing their jobs or having their way of life overwhelmed by another culture. These are the main factors in the undoubted racism that afflicted Australia in the latter 19th and early 20th centuries. We've come a long way since then, though, and I just wanted to reassure air1975 that this is country is as tolerant as his own.

I don't know what media reports air1975 heard or saw, but they may have been based on the emergence a few years ago of a right-wing party called "One Nation" which pandered to the old fears and resentments, especially among people who think they've been left out of Australia's economic good times. This party seems to have received wildly disproportionate coverage in the foreign press and is now defunct, to all intents and purposes. Our government's treatment of Afghani and other "boat people" is a more pertinent issue for which Australia has drawn criticism both at home and abroad. That also may be a factor.

What does concern me a little is whether air1975's fears about Australia are common among non-"Anglo" Americans. The US media (with apologies to American readers) is pretty parochial and mentions of Australia are rare and likely to focus on some lurid event involving man-eating crocodiles and the like.

I hope this discussion isn't trespassing on Fodor's guidelines, but I think broad comment on social conditions can be helpful to travellers as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

Hey, air1975, are you still tuning in? Here's the rest of us having a fine old barney (Aust. "dispute", poss. of Irish origin) and we haven't heard a word from you since your original post. Tell you what, pal, we might be a laid-back operation here, but one thing that really annoys us is, we can't stand some sod starting a barney and then sloping off. Up to you now, but I'm getting the impression that a lot of us have been wasting our breath. Please convince me otherwise. Otherwise we may conclude that you're (a) a stirrer, which is fine, or (b) a whinger (pron. 'winjer'), which most definitely is not.

Over to you. Are you still out there? We want to communicate! Break the silence!

Neil

Don't hold your breath, Neil. We may have scared air1975 off. It would be nice to have feedback.

I agree with your last thoughts and don't think you look through rose-coloured glasses. I don't take it seriously when we are told we must erase racism. Like we can do that?

I do think the One Nation Party did some damage for certain minorities. I was somewhat intimidated by the media news at a time when Australia was a dream vacation for us. But as you say, things have changed and I have no qualms travelling in Australia but do have for travelling in some areas in the US. Not necessarily for racism but for crime. So air1975 could take that into consideration.

In the current issue of Globetrotting published by Goway it mentions that travel to Tasmania has increased 20% in 2003, and carries a one-page descriptive piece and tour on the back page. Looks like we've chosen the right place to visit.

I've been having trouble entering Fodor Travel Talk and took someone's suggestion to go through Netscape. It works 100%.

I will be back with a question on our trip six weeks.

I meant to add that I don't believe air1975's fears about Australia are common among non-"Anglo" Americans or Canadians now.

Michi, the One Nation Party received unwarranted oxygen from a media hungry, as always, for sensation, and (**warning: bias follows**) was not swatted down at the outset by our prime minister, who is a dab hand at wedge politics himself.

A further boost was given by the emergence of one Pauline Hanson, a spokesperson who, while no Einstein, instinctively knew how to tap into the fear and resentment felt by some people feeling marginalised by rapid economic and social change and all too willing to blame the minorities they think are being coddled.

Pauline did supply some unintentional humour, such as when, asked on TV if she were xenophobic, couldn't answer the question, not knowing what the word meant. Anyway, she's out of jail now (sentenced for electoral fraud, conviction quashed on appeal), hasn't had any luck in her attempts to return to public life but at least can revel in the role of St Pauline the Martyr.

By the way, last weekend's state election in Queensland (ONP's spiritual home) resulted in another landslide win for the Labor Party. Less than 1 in 20 electors voted for One Nation and one of their two sitting MPs was defeated.

Maybe I'd better stop giving them oxygen now! Yes, I wish we could eliminate racism, but I fear it's an inescapable part of the human condition. The best we can do is to make its public expression unacceptable and fight discrimination.

Tasmania at long last seems to be having an economic resurgence, which is good to see. Enjoy your visit.

Michi - in the interests of stamping out discrimination I should have said that in the past Tasmanians were occasionally subjected to the sort of hurtful humour that a Canadian acquaintance once told me used to be directed towards "Newfies", and which a Welsh friend also remembers being the victim of in England. New Zealanders also have long been the target of such calumnies in this country. While I will spare readers' finer sensibilities at this point, sheep, and occasionally other livestock, feature prominently in these libels. My sole purpose in posting this information is to advise vistors to Van Diemen's Land to resist any temptation to recycle these old chestnuts, as I believe they are seldom well received. If anyone wants a couple of examples of such discrimination, in the interests of anthropological research, please email me.

Interesting information, Neil. Definitely Newfie jokes have been around for many years. Don't hear them as much any more or maybe I am out of circulation more. I hope it's because we are more sensitive.

I try to be a SNAG but I'm not very successful, Michi, so I still laugh at jokes in poor taste. Even an English joke I once heard that managed to slander both the Australians and Irish at one stroke.

Jokes may be the last refuge of the politically incorrect, but they're pretty democratic, I reckon, insofar as nobody's entirely safe from them, even WASPs like me. I accept that it may be harder for a Tasmanian to come up with a Mainlander joke, but what's life without a challenge?

Hey everyone. Sorry to have started this discussion and then not participated in it... I was out of town for a little while, and couldn't log in.

Its great to hear everybody's opinions and takes on the question of racism. I appreciate everybody's help and advice. If I offended anybody by my question, I do apologize as it was not my intention to offend or inflame.

NeilOz - I have really enjoyed reading your comments. Yes, I do know that racism is present in every country.. I was just concerned about the LEVEL of racism in Sydney. The media reports I had referred to included a guidebook, and a few newspaper articles I've read over the years.

However, after having read everybody's comments )people living there, people who've vistied Australia), it seems that my anxieties were fairly unfounded and that almost everyone has had positive experiences in Oz. That is great, and I am truly excited about a future visit to Australia!

By the way, what is a whinger??? :)

Yeah air1975

Hey, good to see you're back, air1975! No, I'm sure you didn't offend anyone, and I'm sorry if my first post sounded a little grumpy. Distortions abound in the mass media and it was maddening for many Australians to know that the political party we were talking about got so much air time in Asia that some people in neighbouring countries like Singapore and Malaysia were seriously convinced that the aforesaid accidental politician Pauline Hanson was our prime minister!! Unfortunately, good news doesn't sell newspapers.

It must be admitted that Australia once ran a "whites only" immigration policy, and while that was a long time ago, memories can be long. That policy was the product of an insecure country of a few million Anglo-Celts on the edge of Asia, far removed frm their roots and fearful of cultural obliteration (not to mention a labour movement scared that cheap foreign labour would depress their hard-won pay and working conditions).

I remember getting involved in a discussion about the "white Australia" policy in Singapore in the early '70s. Ironically, I was arguing against it (along with a Sinaporean colleague) while an Indian collegue was defending Australia's right to have it! Well, it was history by then anyway, but it was a weird argument.

Fact is that Australia (and Sydney in particular) now has so many people from all parts of Asian origin that even if we wanted to engage in racist behaviour we wouldn't have the energy. You'll see what I mean when you get here. But I'd be surprised indeed if you found Sydney any different from San Francisco, say, in that respect. Only the occasional ratbag is a vocal racist, and I very much doubt that you'll strike one of those.

Slang terms: a "ratbag" is a pronounced eccentric; a "raving ratbag" is worse, in fact as mad as a cut snake. A "whinger" is a whiner or constant complainer and is pronounced with a soft "g", "winjer". A "bloody whinger" is worse. "A whingeing bastard" is really bad. People don't like drinking with whingers. My personal favourite "as flash as a rat with a gold tooth", applied to someone decked out in especially fine apparel.

The extent to which Australians use weird slang (especially that last term) is also exaggerated overseas, so you shouldn't need a phrase book to enjoy your visit.

As flash as a rat with a gold tooth! I love it!

>>>>>>I try to be a SNAG but I'm not very successful, Michi, so I still laugh at jokes in poor taste.<<<<<<

Huh, Neil?

An acronym web page gave me these choices:

* School Nutrition Action Group
* Seafloor Noise Advisory Group
* Sensitive New Age Guy
* Society of North American Goldsmiths
* Student Nurses' Association of Guam

I take it from the context that you meant Sensitive New Age Guy. :)

You've got it, Judy. "Sensitive New Age Guy" is what I keep getting told I need to aspire to. Somehow it just hasn't stuck.

air1975, the saying "as flash as a rat with a gold tooth" once won a magazine competition for best Australian slang expression, but the truth is I'd never heard it before. At the risk of lowering the tone of this forum (who, me?), I think second place went to "he was hanging around like fart in a phone box".

My 2 slang choices are:

1/ up and down like a bride's nightie

2/ a subtle as a fart in a megaphone

.......and for those desperate for a beer who are "dry as a dead dingo's donger"

Or as dry as a Pommy's bathmat..... (er, sorry, I forgot that we're trying to reassure visitors about Australia)

Don't want to prolong this thread beyond its natural life, but I couldn't help passing on the news that a member of parliament in the state of South Australia has announced her decision to oppose a bill that would ban the eating of cats and dogs, on the grounds that it would discriminate against certain ethnic groups. Now there's a warrior in the cause of tolerance! Maybe I'll send her my Filipino recipe for stewed dog.

air1975

I am of Indian orgin living in the US - we visted Australia in 2001 - we did not experience any racism. We loved the place - easily the best vacation we've had.

This was a few months after 9/11 and it was actually a relief to be in a country where people would come up to you smile and say - you from India mate - and talk about cricket instead of being glared at as "Arabs" and "Muslims". Again not to offend any Americans on this forum or tar everone with the same brush - but things were not comfortable for a while.

But yes brush up your knowledge of cricket, several people talked about it, I'd lost touch but hubby and our friends keep up - it made for some interesting conversation. Go and have a great time.

Indie, you could have something there. Today's "Sydney Morning Herald" reports that "Four young Australians on a trip to the United States last month were hauled off a domestic flight, handcuffed and held for five hours on apparent suspicions of terrorism, based on what they believe was 'ethnic profiling'..... The incident at Newark Liberty* International airport ... has left the men, aged in their early 20s, humiliated and anxious about how terrorism fears and racial stereotyping may affect their future travel." These lads are all of Sri Lankan origin.

The full story is at www.smh.com.au.
Ironically, Australia lent military support to American intervention in Afghanistan and is one of the very few countries with troops in Iraq.

* nice touch, that!