This forum is too tame
 

Apropos of nothing in particular, I just had a quick look at the 'US' forum, and now see that this board is altogether too sedate. I was so excited to see some robust debate happening that I couldn't resist helping along a little Anglo-American war that had broken out (see the thread "UK, Britain or England?"). You lot will have to pull your socks up.

OK then here goes:
Neil you are a twit, don't you know that clicking the buttons to the US forum will result in that Canberra "mainly" syndrome of RSI? Can't you keep your nose out of other people's posts? No, got nothing better to do I see.
Is that better now?

Neil

Just finished reading "UK, Britain or England," on the US forum as suggested and it was hilarious. For those in need of a good laugh go there.

You should have been on another discussion board (can I mention Insight Travel?) on the subject of the Iraq War pro and con. The main combatant was a from the US. Talk about a mudslinging battle of words! You would have loved it, but like some others I left and came here.

I love Fodor's Talk.

What a LOAD OF DRIVEL Liz!!! Anyone with half a brain knows that Sydneysiders are an effete race of leftist, latte-sipping, Chardonnay-swilling poseurs!! (Ah, that does feel better. Keep it up!)

Michi, thanks, but all I seem to have achieved is to stop that thread stone dead. They must have twigged to me, I'll have to be more subtle in future.

I don't mind a bit of irrelevance (obviously) but - Iraq? One guy posted to the US forum ostensibly about travel in Vermont, and then proceeded to drop a large bucket on Howard Dean. (Oops, I forgot you voted for him in the New Mexico primary.)

I enjoyed reading the post as well. It was the first-time I had ventured to the US forum.

Anyway, the post reminded me of a very nice young man I met from London in Chicago last summer. He was in college and traveling the US. He was staying at the hostel in Chicago.

We met him at a concert and took him to dinner in the city. He relayed that during his US travels he was contiually meeting people that did not fit his previous understanding and stereo-type of "American" (thank goodness!). I am not saying that the stereo-types are not true of some, but there are some of us who are "peace-loving, Bush-hating, open-minded, well-traveled" etc., I personally love being able to show visitors that we are a diverse people.

So, ... after being on this forum, reading some travel books, and watching animal planet (where an Australian man wrestles with crocs),I now have a schema of Australia and Australians and I am so anxious to get to Australia
and see what fits and what doesn't fit as the young man from London did.

I love travel and I think this forum is very cool. : ) 4 months from today I will be in Oz!!!

-Amanda

Neil

Why don't you go to Lonely Planet where you can join your fellow wankers whinging about about everything under the sun.

Amanda

Not much "croc wrestling" around these days! Well, not in Sydney anyway.

Ignore Neil, he suffers from being irrelevant in the irrelevance that is Canberra :P

Well, I'm glad to see that a few of you are starting to pull your socks up and get involved in a bit of verbal biffo.

Amanda, I think the great thing about travel is that it does or at least should dispel all those silly stereotypes - once you're in a foreign country you start seeing their people as individuals and not en masse. Well, you should, anyway - I've met a few bozos who came back with all their prejudices still firmly intact.

I remember having a political discussion with a lady in Vermont who trumped me by pointing out that the state's solitary US Congressman was a socialist. But we did find that underneath the different labels and styles, we both had much the same issues and arguments to deal with, although in our case we don't have to worry about being a superpower. We just tag along for the ride. But I do have to keep reminding people here that GWB received a minority of the US popular vote.

We often create the problem ourselves too, when you look at the some of the movie/TV crap we all export. For our part, we send low-grade TV soaps to the UK and inflict "professional Australians" like Paul Hogan and Steve Irwin on the US. Not to mention Rupert Murdoch and Mel Gibson (well, OK, Mel was born in the States).

But you'd better be careful with the peace-loving, Bush-hating stuff, or ALF will be calling you a wanker too.

Neil,
I used to lurk (and, yes, even participate) in the off-topic battles that raged in the other forums (at least, as they were pre-registration), but it became a real pain in the ass for those of us seeking and providing the legitimate travel info for which the forum was created.
So, my suggestion to you (and all those who love a good fight): go to those forums and read or participate, but don't bring that crap back here.
This is a great and useful forum; let's keep it that way.
Les

Les, BOG OFF! We Aussies like to have a bit of fun every so often and will do so even if some of you don't like it. If we didn't we would become as bloody boring as the rest of the world and that is one thing that would never do. We like us this way and anyone who does not can just go and get ..........
There Alan I have said it again!

Yes, Les, you take notice of my new best mate Liz. But now I've realised that I have created a problem for myself - I don't know whether some posts are serious or tongue in cheek. I mean, I almost took ALF to task for telling me to hang out with a bunch of smelly backpackers. For all I know Les is sitting back and having a good cackle too.

For Amanda and maybe others - I hope you don't think I was making some implied comment on Americans as such when I referred to the "robust debaters" on the US board - they're a tiny minority and that board is full of helpful people, which given my experience of Americans is just what I would have expected. Anyway, the guy who started the "Britain or England" argument there is Welsh, and I'm sure Mucky wouldn't do that.

Anyway, to make amends and show I'm nothing if not fair and balanced I've now gone back to that thread. I just hope I haven't inadvertently upset the British and the Kiwis in the process. ;)

Yeah! Why should we allow people to share travel information respectfully on a travel message board when we can allow a zealous few to clutter it up with their own witty etcetera?

Who knows, maybe we can even scare away some new posters who might be interested in learning about and visiting Australia!

AUSTRALIA BOARD FOR AUSTRALIANS ONLY! ALL OTHERS CAN GET STUFT!

Gee Scurry I actually thought that quite a few people tried to give you as much information as possible, that it was given in good faith and in fairness and in the hope that you had a great time when you came out. Just remember "old thing" that we don't get paid and we run our lives the way we want. We do not, and hopefully never will, cow-tow to political correctness or any other correctness for that matter otherwise we would all be clones of those other sheep who live on the other side of the world and who refuse to be individuals- generally speaking of course, as there may be some exceptions. Why are you still here anyway as I have not seen any useful information from you to any prospective tourist in the last few weeks. Would you not be better on the much more aggressive site which seems to have no time for light banter but perfers to be critical of anyone and anything and rude to boot.

Liz, I must say at this point that I've found Americans to be polite to a fault. Of course, as with Australians you'll always get one or two people who are a little over-sensitive. Or maybe scurry just has a bad case of the Joe Fridays ('Just the facts, ma'am'). It's a pity that he/she (and Les) didn't notice that the people who engage in the occasional banter on this board also provide a lot of the information.

Liz and Neil - abso-bloody-lutely! When you spend 90% of your time on this board patiently explaining that Port Douglas is not a city; why you can't drink their tapwater; how many ways you can get to Kuranda; why the reef out of PD is no better than that out of Cairns (it's virtually the same sodding reef!); the possibilities of spiders in your tropical Fijian bure; the likelihood of encountering Qld venom spitting cane toads; it's time for a bit of light relief. I think it was Scurry who complained about the perceived early check-outs in some Qld accommodations - tell that to poor old Mucky who was waiting, probably hopping from foot to foot on the blazing sand of Tangalooma in summer with his kids - until 2.00pm get into his hotel room - probably because someone demanded a late check-out.

G'day Neil, Pat and anyone else who is doing nothing but checking out the Fodor's board. May I say that I find it offensive and a tad unfair when it is suggested to me that I stop having a bit of fun and "get on with it" when I have been doing just that for more years than I can remember. When and if anyone from anywhere else suggests to me that I cannot have a bit of a laugh with another of my ilk then they can just go and bite their bum and P.O.Q. It is all very well to expect instant gratification and information from those of us who frequent this forum but please allow us the pleasure of having control of what we do and when we do it, we are not your servants, we are not employed by you or anyone else for that matter. So please 'go to hell' and stop treating me as a second class citizen without a mind of my own, I am no-one's lacky. If you are so inclined to wish to dictate to someone then I suggest you go get your own slave.

At least let's not get carried away with the idea that this is some Australian-vs-American thing - nothing could be further from the truth, as evidenced by the fact that so many American posters have enjoyed this and other "irrelevant" threads.

Maybe what Les and scurry are reacting to is some of the content, rather than the fact, of the "irrelevant" posts. Maybe the plot hatched between AndrewDavid and myself to accidentally lose each other's national leaders. I can understand why this might upset a Republican - I'm a very understanding person, deep down. (VERY deep down, my wife would say.)

Having said that, while Americans and Australians have always got along very well together, there are some cultural differences that under conditions of stress can result in misunderstandings, and we should be conscious of them.

On the Australian side this is probably related to the more "British" side of our makeup - particularly the sometimes irresistable urge to yank someone's chain just to see what will happen. If they bite, great. Yank again. Australians can be irredeemable cynics, and (as some academic research told me, anyway) Americans sometimes find the Australian propensity to engage in blazing argument involving grievous personal insult, uncomfortable, and so may not stick around for the friendly beer that usually follows.

Actually I don't like these generalisations much, because they discount our individuality. And needless to say I'm not suggesting that either "makeup" is superior to the other. As an American consultant once said to me, "There are aspects of everyone's culture that work to their advantage, and others that don't. Yours and mine. Often, each is two sides of the same coin."

Wow....
I just read the afore mentioned thread.
Neil you are absolutely right I would never ever cause such a disturbance on this delightful forum.
However I do agree with Glyn whatsisname
People of the planet in particular many americans, do consider Wales to be in England.
Its true and to us patriotic welshmen it is bloody irritating. There is huge rivalry between England and the other nations.
I have to admit there are many English people who really are superscillious gits (they usually have white rugby shirts on..lol)
But there are many who are ok people too and I guess its the same in most places around the world. After all we are all human.

Thats what happens when the government sits in London. We in wales now have an assembly which is a very expensive talking shop which is meant to be our government but they have hardly any powers.
But alas the same situation is happening within Wales, North wales are particularly p***ed off because Cardiff is the focus of everything from funding to where we play our rugby, and I think they are justified in their annoyance.

I remember being in Tokyo around 20 yrs ago, and I got talking to a Japanese chap in reception whilst waiting for my lift. He also was convinced that Wales was in England he even mentioned that he thought cardiff was in Edingburgh, but he knew of Cardiff Arms Park.
So it is a world wide problem and not just Americans. But then why should they know, I am blissfully unaware of most of American/Japanese history.
Come to think of it I can't fully understand most of Britains History either.
Oh and Thanks Pat for reminding me how annoyed I was on Tangalooma that day !!!!! I was well Pi**ed off too.
Muck

;-)

As an overly polite American, it never even crossed my mind to consider this thread Australian vs American. I too have read the UK, Britain or England thread and personally, I think it's a real crack-up.

I agree wholeheartedly that as a general rule, Americans are very insulated, and not all that talented in the geography department.

I'm reminded of a phone conversation I once had with a customer service rep in the US. After telling her I lived in Kuwait and was in the US on holiday, she asked "what holiday, Yom Kippur?" No, darlin', not that one.

Incidentally, on a recent visit to Hanmer Springs, NZ, I was asked by a girl working at the Thermal Resort where I was visiting from. When I said Kuwait, she asked if that was somewhere in Australia.

So, I guess we're all insulated to a certain extent. The average American probably doesn't give a hoot about the distinction between the UK, Britain and England.

But accuse a Texan of being from anywhere other than Texas, and oh, boy watch out!

You Aussie contributors do an admirable job of helping people on this board. If you want to stir up a little ****, more power to you!

Oops, was that too polite?

Sorry -- I was under the impression that you felt things were too tame around here.

If everyone agrees with one another, what fun is that?

I guess we Americans are lucky; as we move an average of every 5 years, we're not really from anywhere.

AndrewDavid

PS never met an Australian I didn't like, but hey that's easy , I've not been to Australia yet ( 2 months and counting)

Just accidentally strayed into "Other Topics" section of this forum (have never looked at it before) - one thread started by an obsessive soul (I think/hope she's joking) who takes her own bedlinen to 5 star hotels - there's about 85 responses - some are hilarious.

Yes, scurry, there's a bit too much sweetness and light creeping in, but I think the fight's gone out of this dog.

It's easy to be insular when you're living in a big, diverse country that's become a de facto seat of world empire. Australians are in a different position - remoteness from Europe and North America, a small population and our perceived dependence on first Britain and now America for our security have forced us to look outward whether we like it or not. At any given time about 1 million Australian citizens (5% of the population) are out of the country, many semi-permanently.

Australians sometimes wax indignant after meeting Americans who know little or nothing about Australia. Fair enough, maybe - but then, how much do we know about Paraguay?

Come on Neil,

We all know: you lost a prime minister, a governor general and your tallest mountain; that Oberon is the home of the Big Trout and a drizza bone is rain protection.

We've also learned some geography: like how far it is from Cairns to the Whitsundays and its 40 minutes from Mt. Victoria to the Jenolan Caves and Alan lives near Euroka Crossing or is it Emu Springs?; and what about Kakadu and kaka don't?

We'll try to be courteous and not mention "The Fatal Shore" in polite conversation when we wash up on your shore. We'll drink beer rather than martinis.

We may be stupid, but at least we're educated about the important things.

AndrewDavid

PS Paraguay is a nation in South America. Easy to remember; it has those Christmas in Summer sales like you do.

AD, I think I'm starting to get sorry that we told you about those little embarrassments in the first place. And to make things worse, now you've been doing your homework and discovered another skeleton in the closet. Well, quite a few, actually.

But take heart - there's one place in Australia that was spared the odium of being founded by boatloads of half-starved criminals (and don't they know it!): South Australia, the product of industrious, upright British and German protestants. When I lived in Adelaide it was an article of faith that the City of Churches had no home-grown crooks - they were all held to be blow-ins from the more sinful cities to the east.

Sydney, of course, was the first and biggest convict settlement, which may go some way to explaining the history of the city's police force and its property developers.

Having six convicts in my bloodline I know about these things. In fact I have a photo of one of them; his theft of a bay gelding in Bristol almost got him hanged but didn't qualify him for a career in property development (other than his own 64 acres, that is).

Which reminds me, we owe you Americans a favour. It was the American Revolution that forced the British government to find somewhere else to send its overflow convicts. In most cases, after a few years' of unpaid labour, most of the exiles reconciled themselves to warm weather, land ownership and plenty of red meat and warm beer - an Englishman's dream.

Just a bit of trivia Neil. There were more convicts sent to Virginia alone that there were to Australia. At least those convicts we did get were most probably here because they stole a loaf of bread because they were starving. Its another thing when you get a tremendous part of your population from places which have the sign of the Mafia as their insignia.
As for The Fatal Shore AD - don't apologise over it as I for one think that the writer is a big fat pompous prick who is much better living in New York than Australia and should if he had a decent bone in his body he'd pay his bloody driving fines! He is not an historian, of note or otherwise, he is a big overblown bag of wind. If you really want to read something accurate I am sure that we can put you on the right path.

OK Liz, Where's my bibliography. Although our library has a short Australian shelf, I can request most titles through inter library loan.

Please don't disparage the italians, I'm struggling to learn italian now at my advanced age, and they did bring pizza and pasta to both our fatal shores.

ciao,
AndrewDavid

Can I skip the fight and go straight to the friendly beer please?

Being English (from Engerland) and everso polite I've spent weeks reading any threads I could find which were relevant...just so's I wouldn't offend anyone by asking them for the umpteenth time whether or not you can swim with the stingers,wrestle with salties or take home *souvenir* coral from GBR.

Big problem is my short attention span, I can't remember anything much I read before,and NOW Pat is recommending a thread with 85 replies which'll just confuse the issue further.

You'll be sorry,I'll be in asking allsorts shortly.

Can't start any fights,my Dad'll be reading the forum too,we're doing competitive intinerary planning!

Where's that beer,I'm a whingeing Pom..?

AD, I have been an antiquarian bookseller/ and collector as a past-time and for financial gain for many years and in my view Robert Hughes ( author of The Fatal Shore) is someone who likes to see his name in print. He is an art critic for the Time Magazine and as such and in my view, is not qualified to write a difinitive history book. On the other hand an Australian author and Professor of Economic History, Professor of History, and Professor of Australian studies at Harvard - Geoffrey Blainey -just might be someone who can be expected to be qualified to write an historial epic which should be accurate. Also another author/s of reknown are R.M. Berndt and C.H Berndt who wrote The First Australians and Pioneer Settlers - The Aboriginal Australians, which are particularly interesting books and cover a period of reserch which took 50 years. R.M. Berndt was a Professor of Anthropology and C.H was a Hon. Research Fellow of Anthropology. There are many other authors who wrote some very good books but if you are after factual history the above ones are my pick.
In my view, and I am saying this to be provocative, Mr Hughes and Ms Germaine Greer are 2 people who should go down in history as being 2 of Australia's worst exports along with the TV series of Home and Away and Neighbours. The best thing for them to do is stay away thereby making Australia a better place!

A/D
Why don't you ask Liz and Neil their respective views of your mate Mr John Pilger?

Neil
I am sure you would know of the William Lane group who left OZ in the 1890's to set up a "true socialist utopia" in Paraguay. Perhaps they should have stayed here and lived in Canberra.

PS A/D
whats this story of JFK at Mt Victoria?

What an embarrassment of riches! Liz putting the boot into Robert Hughes and "Germs" Greer and johhj_au (whose Canberra bee-in-the-bonnet is buzzing ever more loudly) cunningly trying to start a monstrous spat over the left-wing journalist John Pilger! (Thank you, I'll resist the temptation - some readers may not have their blood-pressure pills handy).

For huli - it's OK to take some of the comments on this board with a grain of salt. That NY chef who described Australia as a "bullshit-free zone" was only partly right.

Liz, your "undesirables" list omitted Rupert Murdoch. How can you ignore a little Aussie over-achiever who pulled off the near-impossible feats of lowering the tone of Fleet Street and ratcheting up New York's sleaze quotient?

I'm now inspired to finish "The Fatal Shore" (sorry, Liz). I did get the impression that the book was a bit out of balance, but we'll see.

It's true that there was a lot of brutality in the penal colonies, and also that many convicts were transported for crimes that these days would score no more than a tongue-lashing from a bored magistrate. It's also true that many were hardened crims who simply resumed picking pockets on this side of the world. Some of course were "politicals" like the early trade union agitators the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the fighters for Irish independence, intent on returning to continue the struggle.

It's also true that many kept their heads down, were treated kindly by their employers, received land grants and married into free-settlers' families. Most of my lot fall into that category and one married his well-off boss's daughter (admittedly she was several months pregnant at the time). Unfortunately someone else must have inherited the money.

AD, although it falls into the fiction category I strongly recommend "Out of Ireland" by Christopher J. Koch, a Tasmanian novelist. Koch may be better known as author of "The Year of Living Dangerously", which was once filmed by Peter Weir starring Sigourney Weaver and a young Mel Gibson. However, this and his companion novel "Highways to a War" are his best books IMHO. "Out of Ireland" provides an excellent insight into the background of some of the Irish "politicals" (interestingly, many were from the Protestant land-owning class) and a graphic picture of early Hobart. Don't worry, it's not potboiler "historical fiction" a la Colleen McCullough - Koch's book is well worth reading for its literary merit alone.

Probably the most famous Botany Bay convict was fictional - Magwitch in Dickens' "Great Temptations".

Well Neil I only named 2 dreadful Aussie sitcoms so therefore only named 2 dreadful ( I can't believe they are Aussies ) Aussies - yes Murdock would come into that catagory and if I spent some time I am sure I could come up with a few more - what ever happened to Vince Gear - or was it Gare?
Yes we did get a share of nasty crims that is for sure but only an idiot of a place would idolise one of them i.e. Ned Kelly, but then anywhere that producers something like Neighbours must have some very strange ideas.

AD - forgot to say, perservere with those Italian lessons! I'm planning to resume mine this year, which gives me an excuse to pop in to the Italo-Australian Club. The biggest contingent of Italian migrants to Australia came from Calabria. We owe the Italians for a lot of good Italian restaurants and the fact that an espresso machine can be found in even the more remote towns.

Incidentally, at the moment Canberra is resounding the noise of large military choppers, and the military police have blocked off Anzac Parade - could your fearless leader have slipped into town again?

And maybe it's time at last to dispel the mystery of our missing governor-general. The fact is that he's just keeping a low profile. Our prime minister is fond of photo-ops with returning troops, sports stars and the like. Unfortunately, past governors-general, not having much else to do, have tended to get into the act, and two's a crowd. Worse, the G-G before last (Sir William Deane), a Labor appointee, had an unfortunate habit of discoursing on matters like Aboriginal poverty. He's almost certainly a closet chardonnay drinker. As a result the present G-G no doubt is under orders to confine himself to opening cake-baking competitions at obscure agricultural shows.

By the way, we (or rather the Queen) don't issue knighthoods any more. Bill Deane must have snuck in just before they were ditched.

Liz, that would be the Vince Gair who I think led the now-defunct Democratic Labor Party. If I remember rightly our former PM Gough Whitlam disposed of him by naming him ambassador to Ireland, where he made a nasty dent in their Jamiesons Whiskey supplies. The Irish have never forgiven us for that one.

Reminds me of a couple of nice Whitlam anecdotes. For non-Australians, Whitlam was (is) a rather imposing and erudite individual with a taste for self-mocking tongue-in-cheek comments that many people took seriously. Once, on a visit to London, he went to a Savile Row tailor to have some suits made. Carefully measuring the inside leg, the tailor asked deferentially, "And what side does Sir dress on?" Whitlam looked down from his full 6'4" and boomed, "Both sides, comrade. Both sides!"

Later, when his government had become as popular as a pork chop in a synagogue (as we say) a local pol took Gough to a football match in Brisbane. As soon as he appeared in the stand, the crowd erupted in enraged boos and catcalls. Utterly unfazed, Whitlam looked at his colleague and said, "McAuliffe, in future I'll thank you not to take me to places in which you're so obviously unpopular!"

And for political history buffs - in which city did Whitlam's successor, Malcolm Fraser, have the misfortune to lose his pants one night? I think it was Memphis, Tn., but can't be sure.

Yes it's true. I have read John Pilger's "A Secret Country". That where I first heard that the CIA got the Gov General to boot Gough Whitlam over the secret missle tracking stations.

i read somehere that JFK recuporated at the Albert and Victoria Guest House in Mt Victoria. after he lost PT 109.

Thanks all for book rec's . will follow up at libraray tomorrow.

Neil; posso visitare il club italo-austaliano? Dov'e?

Hai letto "Old Calabria"?

AndrewDavid

Australia Board for Australians only??? Get off the grass! To be of any value at all, the board name has to represent the country of interest or enquiry, not the country that the participants reside in. For example, I go to a Board be it Australian, USA or Europe, not because I am Australian, American or European, but because I am looking for travel tips on Australia, USA or Europe.

Twoflower:
and your point is?

AndrewDavid - (a) Si, certo. Il indirizzo e 78 Franklin Street, Forrest, vicino di Manuka. (b) Mi dispiace, no ho letto quel libro. Now, before some other reader jumps on me for my lousy Italian ..... be warned - last time I looked, the Italo-Australian Club's in-house restaurant was Chinese! As for the rest, it's a typical Australian club - bar, poker machines and a downstairs bistro.

For some reason Canberra has a lot of passable Italian restaurants but no really top-class ones, despite having a large Italian population. Most serve a predictable menu of pasta dishes, veal parmigiano, saltimbocca and so forth. The Bella Vista in Civic and Belconnen (owned by northern Italians) and the Santa Lucia in Kingston aren't bad. Small point - here, "marinara" sauce has seafood in it.

AD, I meant to say that Whitlam himself has always poured cold water on the CIA theory, despite the claims of a former CIA agent. You can't help wondering, though - from memory, a pivotal event prior to Whitlam's dismissal was a letter that his deputy, Dr Jim Cairns, denied having written, and so Whitlam sacked him for misleading Parliament (they had stricter standards in those days). The idea that Cairns of all people would deliberately lie to Parliament always seemed implausible to me, and intelligence services are not above forgery. It's good to know that such hi-jinks don't go on these days.

Incidentally, yesterday the Governor-General was reported as lunching with Her Majesty at Buck House. Unless it was his double...