Pronunciation of place names
 

An entertaining thread on the Europe forum about the pronunciation of placenames invites an antipodean version. A few to kick off - dissent and improvements welcome (without becoming too technical if possible) -

Albany (WA) - Al[as in Capone]bany, not 'Allbany'

Manuka (ACT) - 'Marnukka', not 'Manooka'

Goonoo Goonoo (NSW) - 'Gunner Gah-NOO'

Goondiwindi (QLD) - 'Gunda-windy'

Canowindra (NSW) - 'Canoundra'

Scone (NSW) - as in 'phone'

Newcastle (NSW) - 'Newkarsel', but Victorians say 'kassel' as in Castlemaine (Vic)

And then there's Cassilis (NSW), pronounced 'Cass-SILL-is' in the town itself and 'Cassillus' across in Gulgong, or is it the other way around?

When we lived in Canberra, our North American ears heard "Manuka" pronounced as "Monica" (like the girl's name) and that's how we said it.

Longhorn - that's interesting - differences in north-south ears notwithstanding, I'd hazard a guess that perhaps you may have overheard mainly old school types from leafy and wealthy back street Manuka or adjoining Forrest.

I think I know what longhorn55 is getting at, given that to Australian ears, the American "o" tends to sound like "ah".

(PS, longhorn, while you're tuning in, can I ask you how Lubbock (TX) is pronounced?)

The manuka, the NZ flowering shrub taht is, is pronounced mahn-OO-ka. I assume the aberrant pronunciation in Canberra was someone's feeble attempt to sound posh (in the 1920s/30s, "posh" equated to "English", as any newsreel of the time will demonstrate). That's probably why it's CANb'ra, not CanBERRa.

Let's not forget the more obvious ones - MELb'n, not MelBORN, and BRISb'n, not BrisBAYNE.

And there's Derby WA, pronounced as it looks, not "Darby".

And Jervis Bay NSW ditto - not "Jarvis".

And this is a spelling rather than pronunciation issue - it's Victor Harbor (SA), not Harbour.

Sorry about the crummy editing in my long para...

'Saint' as in St Ives etc - is it just in Australia that 'St' is usually pronounced in full -as 'Saint' - by those of Irish/ Catholic background, whereas the rest of us say 'Snt' (or, in my own slovenly way in that particular case, 'Snives')?

Longhorn - I'm another who would look forward to enlightenment (on the US/ Canadian forums) on the pronunciation of North American place names. I've just read and enormously enjoyed Richard Grant's <i>Ghost Riders; Travels with American Nomads</i> and Jonathan Raban's <i>Hunting Mister Heartbreak: a Discovery of America</i>. In the latter, Raban discusses the local pronunciation of the seemingly straight-forward Guntersville, Alabama.

Neil -

Can't speak for longhorn, but this Colorado girl pronounces Lubbock, TX - LUB-UCK.

An American friend recently tried to correct my pronunciation of Albany, WA, assuming that it should be pronunced 'Allbany', like the one in NY - I set her straight.

I get odd looks from my American friends when I pronounce Melbourne, as 'Melb'n', but I do it anyway, because I know most Aussies would approve.

Now about Cairns - is it pronounced 'Cans'? And Canberra - is is pronounced 'canbra&quot;?

I'm still trying to master my
pronunciation of Te Anau, which I've pronounced 'tee anew' for far too long. I recently learned that it's 'tay anow', which I can't seem to get my mouth around.

And Motueka - I've heard it pronounced many ways amongst Kiwis, but I think I've trained myself to pronounce it 'moa two eeka'. Is that close?

Melnq8 - yeah, many of us pronounce Cairns as 'Cans', or perhaps something mid way between 'Care-ns' and 'Cans', which is also the way some of us refer to Cannes, unfortunately. FNQers will no doubt set us straight. (BTW, FNQ = Far North Queensland, in this context at least.)

And yes, Canberra is usually pronounced 'Canbra'.

This is a much wider subject than just regional differences in pronunciation. The sound you hear is conditioned by the sounds you heard while you were learning to speak. I am reliably informed by my Japanese Daughter in law that Japanese are quite capable of saying the L sound, as in Laundry, but when they hear us say Laundry, it sounds like Raundry, so that is what they say.
Similarly, when my Aust friends say &quot;Fish &amp; Chips&quot;. to me it sounds like &quot;Feesh &amp; Cheeps&quot;, but when I say it they hear &quot;Fush &amp; Chups&quot;.
A lot of it, of course, is just sloppy speach. So Canberra is shortend to Canbra etc.
Melq8, Te Anau is locally pronounced &quot;Tea AhNow&quot;. Some, (the posh ones) say &quot;Tay AhNow&quot;,and the commoners say &quot;Teana&quot;. But of course you and other &quot;foreigners&quot; will hear it differently anyway, so there is no 'right' way.
BTW Te Anau means &quot;The cave&quot; Te(the) Ana(Cave) THe rediscovery of the Te Anau Caves in 1948 solved the mystery of the names origin.

vbca -

Okay, guess I won't worry about slaughtering OZ and NZ place names too much. The locals probably expect us Yanks to mess them up anyway.

Interesting about your DIL - I always wondered about the lack of the letter L.

I've noticed here in SE Asia that many folks seem unable/unwilling to pronounce the letter A and the letter H in some words. I get a giggle every time a Garuda FA says &quot;may I have your tension please&quot; or when a Singapore Air FA demonstrates how to &quot;attack the seatbelt buckle&quot;.

I know, I know, it's more about language than pronunciation and they speak English 100% better than I speak Bahasa and Mandarin, but it still cracks me up.

Heck, I'm having trouble even spelling pronunciation - I keep having to refer to Neil's post for the correct spelling.

Melq8 You DON'T fly Garuda. Please tell me you don't. THis is the reason I have never been, and will never go, to Lombok. I know I could go by one of the ferries, but their safety record isn't too good either.

Vbca - yeah, whoops, yes, a lot of it has to do with sloppy speech and the propensity of us on this side of the ditch/ detch to mumble.

Melnq8 - going by the number of people here who pronounce pronunciation as 'proNOUNciation' you're not alone in your spelling difficulties.

vbca -

I have no choice but to fly Garuda.

I've flown them about 30 times in the past 3+ years. And as scary as it sounds, they're the best option we have.

I live on a remote company camp on Sumatra - we're a three hour bus ride from the closest International Airport (Pekanbaru), which incidentally, has only ONE runway and ONE thrice weekly international flight - PKU to SIN.

The only other options involve a combination of budget Indonesian airlines, which I refuse to fly on, and local ferries, which are almost as scary and infinitely more time consuming.

farrermog - take the city where I live, Hervey Bay, named by Captain Cook, after one of English Naval Generals?
It is pronounced Harvey, not Heervey

Me too Melnq, with Garuda. It used to run Cairns/Darwin/Denpasar so made a Bali trip from here(Cairns) super speedy. And my husband used to work all over Indonesia, so sometimes I joined him and did utterly nothing while he worked.

The worst was an internal flight which had nothing to do with Garuda, from Jakarta to Bandung, the old Fokker was on its last legs and it did indeed crash about year later, killing everyone on board.

G'day Tropo - Cook crossed the expanse of water he named Hervey Bay on 21 May 1770 - the relevant extract from Cook's Endeavour Journal which has been digitised by the National Library of Australia is -

http://tinyurl.com/5uztew

Hervey Bay includes the 'Lagoon, River or Inlet of shallow water to the southward of us' mentioned towards the end of the entry for 21 May 1770 in the top part of the page. Note that the words 'Hervey Bay' do not appear in the NLA's Endeavour Journal, which is in Cook's hand, but as Ray Parkin tells us in his magnificent book <i>H.M. Bark Endeavour</i> in the copy of the Journal presented to the Admiralty, in which Cook inserted after 'southward of us' - 'in ye Bottom of the deep Bay which I named Hervey's Bay in honour of ye Hon Hervey'. Parkin notes that the bay was 'named after Augustus John Hervey (1724-99), later Third Earl of Bristol, a naval officer who became a Lord of the Admiralty the year Endeavour returned.'

Yes, Neil, as Melnq8 said, Lubbock is pronounced LUB-uck (with the empahasis on the first syllable.)

Thanks re Lubbock, guys. I only asked because I think I once heard someone call it &quot;Loo-bock&quot;. If I remember correctly it's famous as the birthplace of Buddy Holly and Janis Joplin, no?

Still off-topic, I notice that Cook used the old &quot;ye&quot; form for &quot;the&quot;. A bit of trivia: the &quot;y&quot; in &quot;ye&quot; wasn't actually a &quot;y&quot; but a Nordic letter called &quot;thorn&quot;, pronounced &quot;th&quot;. Originally the vertical stroke extended up between the two diagonals, so looking like a thorn, but ended up being confused with &quot;y&quot;. That being the case &quot;ye&quot; wasn't pronounced as such but as the &quot;the&quot; for which it stood. Something to remember next time you see some wanker with a &quot;Ye Olde Tea Shoppe&quot; sign outside his greasy spoon.

Neil -

I want you on my pub quiz team.

Actually, you're close - Janis Joplin was born in Port Arthur, TX.

Righto on Buddy Holly though.