Lee Ann, not only fluent in Canadian but North Queenslandese.

LeeAnn. I'm better in printed word than spoken word. In speech I often have the inflection wrong.

Neil I thought all the records had been destroyed to protect the reputations of your children

cheers, A/D

Resurrecting an old but important topic. As if climbing the rock was bad enough, take a look at this: http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/201...61_ntnews.html

_______________________________________________
Vic's travels: http://my.flightmemory.com/vogilvie

Not rocket science here...Sorry, it just comes down to one word RESPECT
IT is something I would not consider if there was gold at the top. They are courteous to us as visitors, it is simple.

Clearly, she hasn't the wit or wisdom to "understand what the fuss is about", Vic. Pity she didn't slip off it!

Hi All,

WOW...hot topic huh?

As someone who books these tours for clients (yes, I'm probably going to burn in hell and the PC Police will no doubt lock me up for all of eternity...) I thought I'd throw in my $.02.

Part of my job is to educate my clients about Australia
(no mean feat, let me tell ya!).

American tourists (I'm only speaking on what I know, but I suspect tourists from other countries are in the same boat) are totally brainwashed because every single tour operator, brochure, etc., tells them that going to Ayers Rock and climbing it are one of the MUST Do things.

We all know this all the same when visiting all sorts of other places in the world - what kind of stupid tourist would you be to say that you'd been to Venice and never had a gondola ride or travelled to San Francisco without seeing the Golden Gate Bridge?

You really can't fault people for wanting to do it when it's in every single damn brochure they see! This is where education comes in. In the 15 years I've been sending clients to Australia not ONE has had the slightest clue that this could be offending anyone.

Once I explain it to people, they "get it". I suggest that they tour with Anangu Tours, my preferred touring company for Ayers Rock. This is an Aborginal owned company and they do not offer anything involving climbing Ayers Rock.
www.ananguwaai.com.au/anangu_tours

They have the courage of their convictions and stay fast to their beliefs and I respect and support them for that, because they know they could get more business by offering a climb but choose not to.

So then, I ask my clients, what is the reason they want to travel to Uluru? Isn't the true purpose to learn about the oldest culture on earth, to see the rock paintings and have a guide who comes FROM this culture? (as opposed to some guy hired to rattle off commentary on a 50 passsenger motorcoach? Or is it to simply climb a big rock because some travel brochure has told them it's a "must do"?

Most of them listen to me - some do not and yes, I've booked them into tours involving climbing (hence the burning in hell part). All I can do is try to explain it and if they still choose to do it, well then, I will assist them.

Regarding people dying from doing the climb, as several people have mentioned, it's true....although the Tourism department likes to keep that bit quiet. :)

About 7 years ago I sent a client there who was a doctor. When he reached the top, there was a man who was having a heart attack - he tried as best he could to help him, but it was too late. The helicopter dispatched hadn't even taken off before this poor German tourist was dead. Even worse, his wife was still climbing and they had to tell her when she reached the top.

Even weirder, both these unrelated people were scheduled to go to Cairns the next day, so my client found himself at the airport at the same time with the new widow who was trying to make arrangements to have her husband's body shipped home. To say that this experience colored my client's vacation would be an understatement. I mean, even though the guy was a doctor, he just didn't expect something like this happening on his vacation and the end of his time in Australia was not a happy one.

So Keith, you have all the information and you can make an informed decision now - I hope all the imput from the board, including that Bastard Neil, was helpful! :)

btw, so nice to see you again AndrewDavid! When are we going to finally meet the next time you're in the Bay Area? I can provide some sort of documentation of my parentage so you won't have to worry about someone like Neil! A simple lunch or dinner or drinks would suffice, no apartment keys necessary ! :)

Regards,

Melodie
Certified Aussie Specialist

Thanks for your 2c worth Melodie! I'm so pleased to hear you promote Anangu tours and that you try to dissuade people from climbing. Really, I think they should just ban it.

Maybe you could get your clients to view this comedy sequence from the Chaser boys, it makes the point really well, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB_WN7dBXns

Great post Melodie.I have followed this thread for some time and now that it got brought to the top again, find it quite coincidental that I had been researching Uluru since I got back from Australia recently.I had bought a CD back with me and really got to like a particular song on it, by John Williamson, written and recorded way back in 1989
It's about our atitude, and Indigenous belief in the sacredness of Uluru.I kind of like the lyrics.May help bring this discussion into focus for some.
http://holesinmysoles.blogspot.com/2...disrepect.html
And away there where the wind is blown
Never before felt so alone
More aware of skin and bone
I watch the parade of human folk
Strips of rubber,cans of Coke
Making dust and blowing smoke

Where the awe-inspiring power of time
Leaves some fearful,some sublime
White man feels his progress prime
Black man feels no urge to climb.

John Williamson , 1989 Warragul recording of Ancient Mountains.A CD I brought back from our Kimberley adventure.It's a song about the diferent atitudes Aboriginal and Europeans have to the mountains, and Uluru in particular

Thanks Susan - I'd seen that video before - those guys are absolutely hysterical! Love them! I think I'll try that the next time; I'll put the link in my "Favorite Places" and have it ready to send!

Thank you Tactile as well.

This morning I opening the morning paper (San Francisco Chronicle) and see:

"Aboriginal ownrs of Uluru (Ayers Rock) and the land around it have another reason to demand a ban on climbing the sandstone formation after a French woman stripped to her boots, bikini bottoms and cowboy hat to see the site 'in a way I'm going to remember.' The performance was caught on video by a friend. The rock is sacred territory to the Anangu people, who for years have asked tourists to admire it from a distance. Last year Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park officials recommended a climbing ban, but tour operator complained, and the rock remains open for the foreseeable future."

CLIMB THE ROCK.

The aborigines may own the land, but having leased it to US through our taxes the have no right to control our morals. If you rent a house would you like the landlord to control how you behave morally eg No single parent; No homosexuals etc.

I fully respect their moral code and are happy for them to follow it. I am not happy for them to force their code onto us.

Anyone who dismisses the climb as "only a small part" of the experience misses the importance of it to those of us that want to climb it. It is part of the Australian culture to climb such things for many reasons - tradition, family who have done it; life long desire and like Everest "because it is there".

I spoke to over fifty people who climbed the rock the same day I did and all had stories to tell of their dreams of climbing it and how agry it made them that the aborigines seem to close it on a whim. Many were very upset that their children and grandchildren will not be able to climb it. The friendly atmosphere on the climb is fantastic. People who would never normally speak to each other were chatting and offering help and encouragement. It was a wonderful community feel that will be lost.

I spent five hours on the rock and walked out to the far end. I spent about the same walking and driving around the base. The top of the rock is one of the most special and fascinating places in the world and I have been to 35 countries. The walk around the base is but a mere shadow of the walk at the top.

To stop the climb is insensitive and illogical but Culture and politics always are. Whose culture is more important? What compromise can/should be made?

If you respect all people. Why do you not respect those who want to climb?
ALL racism. All bigotry is UGLY.

Oh, the ignorance.

And the climb is closed for safety reasons - about 30 people have died on the rock, heart attack, heat exhaustion or falling off the thing.

The climb is not worth doing - it's not that hard. Just drag yourself up on the chain and keep walking.

So true Peter__S_Aus - I refrained from responding yesterday because it was heading towards a bit of a rant - but you've said all that needs to be said. Thanks.

And you joined just to post this, peterSale?

Doubtless, you're entitled to your opinion.

If people have no respect for the Aboriginals' sacred place, it would seem to follow that they would not object to others ignoring their wishes about anything they might hold sacred.

Perhaps nothing is sacred to these people - except fulfilling their own "dreams", wishes & desires.

I drove through Yulara a few years ago, in transit from Perth to Melbourne - I wrote a bit of a trip report about the journey, which was special in many ways. My take on climbing Ularu:

Tourists complaining that the climb up Ayers Rock has been closed. It's 36 degrees in the shade, there's no shade anyway, and it's blowing about 40 knots on top, for God's sake, and they look they have not climbed anything more challenging than a bar stool in decades. 200 pounds of the finest lard. Have they got a death wish, or what. I bet if they went to Jerusalem, they would not try free climbing on the Wailing Wall, so why can't they respect the wishes of the owners and stay off the rock. Aboriginals never, never climb. Except to haul a stretcher up the rock to retrieve people with heart failure or heat stroke.

Walking around the base of the rock, a place with a feeling of great age. Aboriginals have been here for 40,000 years, one of the worlds oldest civilisations, and have left no mark other than some cave paintings. Communities with strong oral traditions, and a story to explain the existence of almost every feature and mark on the rock. Feels like walking through Westminster Abbey, or Chartres Cathedral. Go quietly, you are walking over and through someone's history, disturbing their Dreamtime. Take care.

I was amazed at how spiritual my visit to Uluru seemed to be. I love that place.

The very shy Anangu people have never forced their moral code on anybody they only ask that you think about their wishes. They are only asking not telling. It's their sacred ground not ours and so their culture should be the one that needs to be respected here - it's nothing to do with us really and that's the way it should be IMHO.

Very well said Stormbird and excellent factual corrections.

The thing I don’t understand is the concept that once you pay money for something, then it is yours to do what you like with it. The concept that, because a lease fee is paid to the Anangu people, then they have no right to request any particular behaviour from visitors.

You can lease a church hall, and turn it into a casino. And the church will be offended.

peterSale noted that ”It is part of the Australian culture to climb such things for many reasons - tradition, family who have done it; life long desire and like Everest "because it is there". But it is not part of my culture, particularly when it would offend people.

In 1995, I was cycling around Aus, and there’s a sort of trip report for that:

Early start next morning, in the dark, to pedal to Ularu for sunrise. A traffic jam, buses, cars, Grey Nomads, camper vans, plus your solitary cyclist. Camp stools pulled out, the sun rises, Ooh, Aah. Rattle of shutters that sounded like castanets, where are the flamenco dancers, and then they mostly hurtled off. A couple of nomads lit the billy and we shared a cup of tea in the dawn chill, most peaceful.

I have to confess that I climbed Ularu, in a state of ignorance. I was unaware, then, that the traditional owners see Ularu as sacred, and that it is not respectful to climb. The climb is no big deal really, in terms of achievement. There’s a chain to haul yourself up the steepest part, and after that it’s easy. Not worth doing really. The T-shirts on sale saying “I climbed Ayers Rock” are about as significant as saying I rode a bus.

I went to the visitor centre, and learned heaps about Ularu. At that time, the visitor centre was still in a tin shed, and the new centre was under construction, near completion. By absolute chance, I ran into Greg Burgess, architect for the new centre, and he showed me around, explaining how the architecture reflects the stories, the song lines, of the Anangu, the traditional owners. He'd designed the centre by sitting on the ground for weeks with the owners, drawing patterns in the sand, talking endlessly, and the building is the result of that process. It is one of Australia's fine buildings, an inland version of the Sydney Opera House.

Ularu is to me the centre of gravity of this country. The bike trip was my first visit, and I’ve been back three times since. It's special to me, it feels good.

The visitors/cultural centre is an absolute gem isn't it, Peter_S. I've only been there once and was sorry that we didn't have more than the hour or so we did to delve further into its treasures.

At that time, the Guelph (Sp?) panorama building was still in Alice Springs (later destroyed by fire) and it was also a wonderful repository for artefacts, decorations, art and utensils from the area.

We found a lot of things on our place (Far north west NSW) - rubbing stones, boomerangs, nulla nullas, axe heads, & throwing sticks, some coolamons & stick humpees, but none of the fine head & foot decorations made of feathers that I saw up there.

Like you, Uluru has a resonance for me. So did our place. Blindfolded & driven there from any direction, I'd have known when we were on our soil.

Some people just dont feel or see it that way, I suppose. Bit like flying over the great rivers & plains of the Channel country & declaring, "There's nothing there".

When we visited Uluru the first time in 1997 we were very lucky that when we visited the Cultural Centre a member of the Anangu people - Rupert - took us on a guided tour. He struggled with English - which I thought was fantastic as it meant it wasn't his first language - and so a ranger tagged along as well to help out with the occasional translation assistance. Rupert was delightful and enlightening. I was absolutely enraptured by his stories.

When we were finally leaving the area my main thought was that we must plan to come again but next time with our friends as I was desperate to share the experience with them.

We returned with our friends in 2002 and had an absolutely wonderful trip - they too, enjoyed the area so much. Sadly, there was no guide at the cultural centre - I did enquire but was told that as much as they would love to have someone there they are just so shy it is difficult to get them to come out so to speak.

As white Australians we don't have too much in the way of Australian culture and I just feel that the Aboriginal culture desperately needs to be preserved, shared, appreciated and respected.

I was there in late June and was upset by the seemingly random closure of the climb.

I know it is closed for safety reasons as it is strenuous. But when it is closed no one goes and gets those who are up there to come down. It was windier on our way down than on the way up and still it was open. The concensus of those at the base waiting to climb was that reasons are arbitary.

I fully agree with some of the safety reasons and that it should be closed in extremes.

My concern is that the Aborigines do not have a good reputation in this country and closing of an icon will not help their cause.

Australia has a wonderful and diverse culture and no ONE culture should control what the others do. Women without head covering will offend certain Muslims. Should you cover your head at all times?

The debate of "us" and "them". "Their land" or "our land" will not aid in reconcilliation.

In direct answer to Keith. There is little pressure not to climb although the request is on signs and in brochures. It will be luck rather than desire as to whether you can climb the rock given the number of times they close it. When we went it had beenclosed for two weeks. Then three hours on our day. Open for two hours the next day etc.

Yes I did join to voice my opinion and the opinion of the fifty or so that I talked to on the rock. And anyone who says it is flat up there has not been there.

Try this website for some history. I have not researched the accuracy of the site.

http://outbackvoices.com/book-review...wns-ayres-rock

He wrote a book review of his own book?

Well PeterSale whether you like it or not the Aborigines do have 'their' land. Can you imagine the circus that was Ayers Rock before they took over ownership. People camping, littering the area, humanity bombarding the place.

I think that Aborigines are entitled to live their traditional life if they choose to and as such are also entitled to land to do so. They don't have much and what they have I can't imagine too many white folk wanting it anyway - considering it's remoteness.

I wouldn't put too much credence in your link - the spelling of Ayres (sic) had me suss from the start.

That’s not a book review. It is a précis of the content of the book.

peterSale, occasionally the Ularu climb is closed. It is closed by National Parks, who have control of the area, not the Aboriginal owners. It is closed for safety reasons. Sometimes the reasons will not make sense – rain is forecast, making the climb hazardous, and then the rain does not fall. High winds are forecast, and then they don’t arrive. The climb was closed for a day in April this year, out of respect for a tourist who died on the climb the day before.

The climb is about 350 metres of easy going. Don’t pretend that it is hard or some sort of achievement. It is not Mount Everest – you can climb Ularu in sandals, sans ice axe and crampons.

Look, climb the rock if that is what turns you on. You can fire off flashbulbs during a church service – nobody will prevent you. Wear a scruffy tee shirt and hiking boots in a Buddhist temple – the monks are probably too polite to prevent you doing this.


Or observe the cultural sensitivities of the people that you interact with – it will make for a richer cultural and travel experience.

"My concern is that the Aborigines do not have a good reputation in this country and closing of an icon will not help their cause."

As opposed to your "good" reputation PeterSale as exemplified by your sensitive and empathetic posts,I suppose?


Definition of "icon" (Oxford Dict) = "pertaining to the sacred". Like people to walk over a few churches with no thought would you Peter?

This is a bit funny.

Signs request that you do not climb, so if you climb, you are doing it on your own account.

But then peterSale complains that “But when it is closed no one goes and gets those who are up there to come down”.

The implication is that someone should risk their lives to tell other people that they are risking their lives.

Maybe they should not be there in the first place – and if you choose to walk up the monolith, then you can walk yourself down. Do try not to fall.

This will be my last post on this topic as I know (and knew) I will not change your minds. I just hope that I have shown you that those of us who choose to climb are as passionate as those who choose not to. I have no problem with your choice or your conscience. I did think before I climbed and made a choice that best suited my conscience. In other countries I do the same thing and make a choice usually in favour of the local culture and sometimes not. We generally stick to national parks and avoid people (that's probably obvious by now).

I could go on, as I spent nearly three hours talking to people about the climb. This included two policemen at the base of the climb who said the closing of the climb was pretty much random and a bit of a joke. They suggested getting there as soon as the Park opens to get the best chance to climb.

I will leave you with four things to ponder.

If you are happy for indigenous people to close sacred sites would you be equally happy with all other religions closing their churches and temples to all but those who belong to their religion.

YOUR God created Ayers Rock. Whether that God is Allah, Jehovah, Mother Nature, Geology or any of the thousands of Deities this planet has. You need to decide how best to pay homage to your God. Follow your conscience not someone else’s.

If you want to make a truly rational/objective choice look at my photographs of Ayers Rock Summit at Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/petersale1/

If you like what you see and would visit that place if it was in any other National Park in the world, then visit it. Simple. (I wish)

Finally, if climbing a rock is so divisive, what hope do we as a nation have of solving the far more complex issues facing minorities in this country?


CHANGING THE TOPIC COMPLETELY

I joined this forum as I was linked to it from this website:- http://www.outback-australia-travel-...ock-uluru.html


What does this website you all belong to offer? What should I be looking at? I am new to forums having only joined after visiting Ayers Rock. My wife and I travel internationally and nationally every year. We are not into tour groups or mass tourism and generally avoid people as much as possible.

Thanks for all your opinions. It has been fun. Remember, opinions are like clocks. Everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs is right.

"If you are happy for indigenous people to close sacred sites would you be equally happy with all other religions closing their churches and temples to all but those who belong to their religion."

Of course I would be equally happy if religions decide to close THEIR churches. When was the last time you went into a Mormon temple for example? Not allowed in there, and that is fine, it's their religion and their choice. You can be insensitive if you want but don't try to paint yourself as somehow more than a selfish person who wants what he wants when he wants it.

Dear Monica,

There is always someone who answers rhetorical questions. But seeing that you went to the trouble to answer and make grand assumptions about me because a I posed a question. I thought I would make some assumptions about you.

You are are happy for cultures to follow their beliefs. So far so good. We agree with each other.

So therefore am I right to assume that you are happy with cultures that do any of the following?
Polygamy, Bullfighting; Circumcision (male and female), Footbinding, Kayan Brass Coils; Whale Hunting; Fox Hunting; Hunting in general; Disenfrancise women or other minorities; Corporal Punishment; Capital Punishment; Conscription; Arranged Marriages; Ban Contraception; Ban abortions; Allow abortions; Female Infanticide; Have Dress Codes for women, Deny Education to women and/or other minorities; Don't allow homosexuals?

Or are you a hypocrite like everyone else on the planet?

I know this is all off topic and I said it would be my last post, but I couldn't let this one slide.

Going back to the original question?

Is it as sacred and profoundly meaningful to you to climb Uluru as it is to aboriginal peoples to have it undisturbed?

To put it another way, why do you feel you MUST CLIMB the rock?

<<Finally, if climbing a rock is so divisive, what hope do we as a nation have of solving the far more complex issues facing minorities in this country?>>

None! None that is if the minorities are having to deal with people such as yourself. In order for reconciliation to be achieved both sides have to have a bit of give and take and respect for beliefs. I think the aborigines are happy to oblige but I think there are many, many white folk who refuse to yield on land rights etc and Uluru is a sore point for them. It IS a sacred site, the traditional owners have not BANNED the climb, they have not CLOSED the climb they politely ask that you DON'T climb. Where's your respect for this culture, world traveller? You've assured us here that you weren't going to discuss this further and I see you've posted this thread on THREE new threads in the lounge - unable to let it go.

<<Mass tourism is often offensive and people can be thoughtless and disrespectful in all places and situations.>>

Your words from your Environmental Management thread. It really is the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

I have started the new threads as they are interesting to me
(and others given the number of response) but not related directly to Ayers Rock. I like hypotheticals. But this thread gives the background to my questions. Respond to me there not here.

Please don't make assumptions about me or my beliefs just because I pose the hard questions. Just because I pose them doesn't mean I have a certain viewpoint. Sometimes I have no viewpoint at all. But I am interested in others.

In answer to Cyanna. Most definitely! In as far as one can compare emotions, beliefs, pain etc. Who has more grief when a child dies? The Mother? The Father? The Sibling?

If it wasn't important I wouldn't have done it. I chose to respect the wishes of the Hawaiians and not to climb the summit of Mauna Kea in Hawaii as "summiting" is not my thing. Geomorphology and my relationship with my God is. I had seen enough of the volcano to satisfy my spirit/soul. Summiting would not have added to the experience. Likewise, although wishing to pay respect to the sailors of the Arizona in Pearl Harbour. I chose not take the free tour so that our tickets could go to someone to whom that site is truly significant. (I hope they did - but I will never know) I do usually visit all war memorials and read all the names. But Pearl Harbour although significant to our history is not Gallipoli or Tobruk and preference should be given to those who really care deep down.

Climbing to the top of Ayers Rock was one of the most amazing and profound experiences of my life. It ranks with being on glaciers and active volcanoes.

It is the feeling of immense age and geologic power. God's power. (I am not religious zealot. I attend no formal Church. Only nature.)

Ayers Rock "talks" to you. Talks to your soul. The silence. The breeze. The age. The colours (Ayers Rock is actually grey, only the thinnest outside layer is red).The variety of sounds the different rock layers make when you walk on them. The pattens inthe rock. The layers of age we cannot comprehend. The plants and the waterholes. The shrimp that occur only on Ayers Rock. The birds.

It was a physical and emotion pain to leave the rock. I had spent five hours on it and would, in a blink of an eye, return. It is that special.

So yes, such things are vitally important to me.
I fully understand that others will think I am mad.
I also fully understand that to many if not most toursists it is just a bit of red rock to tick off on their list of places they have been. I pity them.

I understand the anguish of the Aborigines because it is mine too. But from a different viewpoint.

For the record I generally avoid places of mass tourism so as to not add to the problem. Also there are few places of mass tourism that are based around geology which is why I travel. I long to see the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. But fear what tourism has done.

Why do you travel? Follow my thread at:-
http://www.fodors.com/community/fodo...wn-country.cfm

I think that if peterSale does not stop this, he'll go blind.

OMG Peter_S_Aus yes, and his arm must be getting very sore by now. So he only respects something when it's not 'his thing'. What a crock of sheets!

Puhlease!!! Somebody his the triangle!!! Puhlease!!

"So he only respects something when it's not 'his thing'."

Exactly, stormbird! - and there's the REAL hypocrisy.

The aboriginal people who supposedly have a "bad reputation" in this country according to peterSale, but who have the LEGAL rights to control access, only ASK that people not climb the rock - thereby eroding and disrespecting it.

(Interesting that peter, who supposedly is fascinated by natural land forms, doesn't mind participating in a climb that, in effect, helps destroy the integrity of a natural landform)

Maybe they need to actually ban climbing before people like peter really "respect" anything.

Some good did come from one climber's unfortunate slip to his death.

Azaria Chamberlain's matinee jacket was found when the rescue team was searching for his body, leading ultimiately to Lindy's release and the overturning of her conviction for murder.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...inaccount.html

Too true Bokhara. When all that started we had been living overseas, a remote area of PNG without television, radio or daily newspaper so we had actually heard nothing of the whole business.

We returned to Australia in 1982 just when Lindy was going to trial. So this was the first I had heard of the dingo and the baby. I really couldn't understand all the hysteria over the case as it seemed really quite plausible to me that yes, a dingo could take a baby. At the time I seemed to be the only one in Australia that thought Lindy was actually quite innocent.

Now in light of events up at Fraser Island and the fact that we have so many domestic dog attacks that can kill an adult - well how hard was it to establish the truth? Pride cometh before a fall (as far as the forensic/police involved).

This was a very grave injustice against the Chamberlain family particularly, Lindy but I'm pleased they seemed to have been able to pick up the pieces and move on.

If there is one pet hate that I have it is injustice - there is nothing that can make up for someone who has been unjustly accused.

No one with 1/2 a brain, knows anything at all about wild dogs, or lived in the country & seen dingos would doubt one could carry a baby off for a nanosecond, stormbird.

And the worst thing is, those NT dolts who were out to get her could not possibly have lived in that area and not known it was more than likely exactly as she said. It was a deliberate set-up from the minute the first inquest was over & the Chamberlains cleared - through the fabricated forensics & lunatic theories about names & dress colours & the witch hunt because she behaved with dignity, didn't wail like a banshee in public & wouldn't back down.

I was reminded of it today because I saw an article about Lindy being back for the 30th anniversary.

FANTASTIC!
If you don't like peoples opinions - Call them names.
If you really don't like them - Banish them.
What if you hate their opinions?

If you can't handle the opinions of others why are you on a forum?

Cyanna asked what I felt was a serious question and I answered it as such. I know people will not understand exactly how I feel but that is no excuse for name calling, that only belittles you.

I note that you chose to ignore my Pearl Harbour example as that does not suit your opinion of me. And you obviously missed the Mauna Kea point.

I look forward to an intelligent response from Cyanna and hope she has a broader mind and a more caring attitude to others than is apparent by the the last few posts about me.

How does the things that excite you, make you feel? Great art? Cathedrals? Whatever. Are your feelings more worthwhile, than others? Should you be caled names because of your feelings? More rhetorical questions.

<<I chose to respect the wishes of the Hawaiians and not to climb the summit of Mauna Kea in Hawaii as "summiting" is not my thing>>

Just clarify then PeterSale - if 'summiting' WAS your thing would you then have climbed the summit of Mauna Kea? The way I read it you are implying that if summiting was your thing well then you would have climbed the summit.

If then, that is the case then you in no way respected the wishes of the Hawaiians but quite frankly just chose not to climb - respect for wishes had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Your arguments seem somewhat flawed and

<<But Pearl Harbour although significant to our history is not Gallipoli or Tobruk and preference should be given to those who really care deep down>>

Fickle?

Hello. Me again! Another long one, but I’m sure the other readers of this thread will find it most fascinating. Let’s look at some REAL hypocrisy .

How contrary are you all? Let’s find out by following a few of your threads and reading your profiles.

As you read about yourselves, remember I WILL defend to the death your right to freedom of speech. But will you defend my right?

Stormbird is all for respecting cultures especially the Aborigines. Yet she ignores the culture of Fodor's by swearing even if cleverly disguised. How long have you been a member? 4 years?
Surely you read the terms?
What threads has Stormbird started?
One attacking Julia Gillard; another joking about people with dementia and yet another endorsing a video that promotes racial and cultural stereotypes. (yes the Lamb ads)

BUT the BEST BIT? THE ABSOLUTE BEST BIT? To quote her directly.
“The main thing we wanted to do here was go 4WDriving over the famous 'Big Red' sand dune. We weren't disappointed - the dune goes on for miles and miles and rises to about 150 metres I guess. Of course, for us the challenge was going to be between the 2 Nissan Patrol wagons and the 2 Toyota Land Cruisers.”
This is from her Trip report “Birdsville...are we there yet?”

All that way to drive over a sand dune and have a 4WD competition? What about the traditional owners? Not to mention the environment! How many shock absorbers did you replace? And brakes? Didn’t you get Mother Nature’s hint that you were not welcome? What is the carbon footprint of four 4WDs x6500km?

If I can’t WALK on Ayers Rock, can I DRIVE a 4WD over it instead?

MONICA bought a new sofa/chair combo because the old one was the WRONG COLOUR. YOU get what you want when you want it. How selfish of you! THEN she starts a vitriolic thread attacking St Vincent’s de Paul, because – God Bless Them – they will not lower their standards and accept her second hand sofa. Very caring. Very sensitive. What are you painting yourself as?

PETER_S_AUS only wants to go to Venice. Is this further evidence of a narrow mind or does he suffer from the sins of Onan? Or is he just obsessive? What about your greenhouse contributions to travel there? Won’t that create sea level rises and help flood Venice? OH! But you WANT to visit? That’s your thing. I could hunt through your threads but the others had well and truly proved my point. Plus, we have the same name and that added to my disguise.

OH MY! How the mighty have fallen. And to think others bleatingly follow you.
What will I find in your threads? Libretto and Bokhara2 et al?

Despite all this you people have the temerity to call ME a hypocrite. I NEVER said I wasn’t.

But I do follow MY conscience. Just like YOU. How scary.

Read about yourselves in Matthew 7: 1-5. And “Beaumont Rag” by Redgum. The live version on “Caught in the Act” is best.

Finally, if you want to know who I am.
Matthew 16: 18 (Just the first bit will do.)
And my last name? Just a sign on the house across the road. There is, I believe, a town in Victoria as well. Peter S Aus can confirm that.

I might change my alias again and… I might not.