Vietnam: the big ZERO
 

I spent three weeks' vacation in SE Asia, and have just returned home to New York. During my time overseas I visited Vietnam, spending 3 nights in Ho Chi Minh City and 3 nights in Hanoi.

I had very nice hotels in both cities, and had an opportunity to visit each city's main sites and sights.

From HCM City I took a day tour via water launch into the Mekong Delta, and from Hanoi I took a day tour to Tam Doc, a rice paddy north of town.

My impressions of Vietnam are generally negative. The streets and avenues, while certainly well-paved and walkable, usually have few stores worth browsing through. I found most food stuffs being sold on the street in very unsanitary conditions.

Although I noticed several well preserved structures from the French era, and a few modern hotels, I noticed little new construction otherwise. I did see a few noteworthy temples, but none rose to the level of spectacular or visit worthy.

I went to one of the night markets, and felt the booths were offering lesser quality merchandise. Perhaps the charm of it was for the locals, who could have a chance to socialize with each other.

The service personnel whom I encountered seemed distant and distinctly un-SE Asian in their peculiar unfriendliness. Perhaps the constant barrage of government propaganda against foreigners fosters such an attitude. I was able to defrost some of those attitudes by speaking some phrases to the staff in their own language. That usually brought a look of surprise, as well as a faint smile.

I noted also with dismay that my guide in Hanoi, while discussing the HCM mausoleum with me, asked ME if I knew how his body might have been preserved. I tried to give a brief explanation of embalming, with its history dating back to ancient Egypt. Apparently, the government promotes the view that it is magic that preserves Ho Chi Minh's body, rather than science.

In the evenings after dinner I usually enjoy walking about for a stroll along the avenues, as one can easily do in Hong Kong or in Singapore for example. In both HCM City and Hanoi, however, there seemed to be no evening commercial activity that I could discern except for a night market. Perhaps a shortage of electricity and refrigeration cause the lack of activity.

I took one domestic flight while in Vietnam, on Pacific Airlines, from HCM City up to Hanoi. At the airport for that flight, I encountered extraordinary rudeness: I was never so pushed, elbowed, had toes stepped on, etc. as in that airport. This, in spite of the fact that I do indeed appear to be obviously an older man (the bald head, the gray beard, the gray moustache, etc.).

For me, Vietnam was a truly forgettable experience: I certainly won't return, nor will I recommend it to others as a destination.

In the hierarchy of SE Asian nations, I would place Vietnam down on the level of Laos and Myanmar with regard to tourist infrastructure.

I am curious, though: could those of you Fodorites who felt Vietnam was a worthy tourist destination share some of your positive experiences with me? Could I have completely missed what Vietnam had to offer?

No question, VN does not yet have the traveler infrastructure of, say, Thailand. And yet it is a fascinating and worthy destination.

We spent a week in Hanoi and found lots of fascinating shops, restaurants, etc open at night. Indeed, old town section and the area around the lake is great walking territory any time of the day. It appears you had a mere two days in Hanoi (since you went to Tam Doc one day), so I wonder if you just didn't have the time to experience and explore. I also have to say that my bias is against using guides in most places. Without a guide you are forced to interact with the locals without a translator. It is these day to day interactions that are the "currency" of travel for me. I had a fascinating conversation with an old man in a temple courtyard in Hanoi in which he was able to tell me that he had visited both Moscow and Bejing years ago. We shared no common language, but much was communicated.

We didn't visit Uncle Ho in his Mausoleum, we visited places like the Temple of Literature, a good variety of fascinating museums, and a number of temples (pagodas) not on the tourist track. We walked around the lake, watched old men playing mahjong in the park, sat and observed the life of the city.

I agree that the service in VN is "rougher" than anyplace I've visited in Asia. It's the only place I've been where street vendors sometimes yell obscenities at people who don't buy from them - an odd idea of how to sell things!

I am of the firm belief that Asia lends itself best to slow travel. If you move too fast, you miss it all. And if you insulate yourself whether it's by being with a tour group or a guide or just "holing up" in your hotel, you'll miss the whole sense of the place.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your time in VN. Perhaps at another time you may choose to return.

By the way, while Laos has much less infrastructure than VN. I found the people very warm and welcoming. We loved our week in Luang Prabang.

So you're writing off a whole country on the basis of a visit of less than a week to only two places? I see this is your first post here, I hope you're also going to post about the places you DO like.

Rather than rewriting a bunch of stuff, I'll refer you to my trip reports on Vietnam: www.wilhelmswords.com/asia2002 - A Tale of Two Cities, Vietnam Down the Spine and Delta Days.

And if you didn't find any visit-worthy temples I can only conclude that you didn't visit the Cao Dai temple at Tay Ninh, or the Cholon section of HCMC.

I spent two weeks alone in Vietnam in 2006, and fell in love with the country. I limited myself to the north- Hanoi, Halong Bay, Sapa and Hoi An. Of those places, I would rank Hanoi at the bottom, but I generally don't enjoy cities. I also ran into many, many tourists who loved Vietnam, but weren't that impressed with Ho Chi Minh. I would say, don't judge the entire country based on those two cities. There is so much more to the country. The landscapes are some of the most beautiful I've ever seen. I had many wonderful experiences there... spending a night on Halong Bay, trekking through the hill tribe villages in Sapa, lounging on the beach and getting clothes tailored in Hoi an, to name a few.

No, it's not a "fluffy" tourist destination, and can be quite exhausting at times. It is a rapidly changing, overly populated, and very poor country. Sometimes it was difficult not to feel like a walking dollar sign. It seems to be an either "love it or hate it" destination.

I am sorry you didn't like Vietman. I guess thoufg I can understand why not everyone would like a vacation there.

We were there for only two long days-stops on a crusie - one day at Na Trang where we did some diving and one day at Saigon. We did not have a guide either day. I booked the dive on line and we explored both places on our own. I can not eat soy so eating was an adventure, but the people were great at helping me avoid it.

We loved what we saw of the country and the people we met, so much so, we have included some time in Hanoi on our land based trip next March. You do have to have an open mind, I think, and a sence of adventure to enjoy a visit there.

Kathie, I have copied many of your reports into my file for next year's trip. Would you list the temples you liked that are off the beaten tourist track. Those are the places we usually enjoy most. Thanks

I am a bit surprised by these comments, to be frank, although Saigon does not win any popularity contests here on Fodors!

Just curious: did you mean Tam Coc, which is south of Hanoi and famous for its karst scenery? Or is there, in fact, a Tam Doc?

What kind of evening commercial activity were you seeking?

Give it another 5 years..

I have been there 3 times and enjoyed each trip. No, it is not a Singapore,but it is a country being developed. The people there I met are wonderful, and I keep in touch with several of them Some of the best guides I have had in any country were in Vietnam. I went with 1 to his Mother's house back in the interior of the Mekong. What an experience! These people have been very resilent and hardworking. I found the young people so eager to learn even helping one young man in the postoffice in Saigon with his English homework. From my experience it is the people that make this country not the sights.
I felt so well taken care of by the people even traveling some by myself.

I traveled Vietnam Air and found them to be very good.

Maybe one of the reasons I was so interested in the country was the part America played in Vietnam history in the war. I even visited the Du Moc caves(in the northern most part of Vietnam) where the peole lived during the war and met a young man who was born in the cave.

I have to admit European countries are my favorite as far as the sights, architecture, and art.

We all have our preferences,but I found Vietnam such a unique place.

It is amazing, isn't is, how different each person's perception is. I found Vietnam to be magical and met many kind and friendly people.

My trip report is here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34659821

john---you did not give it enough of a chance....

your comparison to HK and Singapore is not even a fair one...both of those city states is a concentration of power and wealth and VN is a country still attempting to recover from a huge war in the last 1/4 century...

basically the country is an agricultural based economy and cannot be compared to those you list..

there are sites and there are interesting ones and also a wealth of shopping but it can generally not be uncovered in a few days time....imo

This reads like a post that was only written for people to flame on. Doubtful the OP will be back again. To say that no new construction was noticed is not HCMC at all. The whole town is under construction right now. And certainly Dong Khoi, Le Loi and Ha Ba Trung streets are quite walkable and have many intersting stores, all with plenty of electricity and refridgeration. This reads like a report for 20 years ago.

I'm with Bisbee. Some of johnwm's comments seem to be written from a desire to be inflammatory and are plain mischievous.

"Perhaps the constant barrage of government propaganda against foreigners fosters such an attitude."

- Really? And on what do you base this assertion? Extensive study of the local media? A peculiar comment, to say the least.

"Apparently, the government promotes the view that it is magic that preserves Ho Chi Minh's body, rather than science."

- Too silly for words and not deserving of further comment.

"At the airport for that flight, I encountered extraordinary rudeness: I was never so pushed, elbowed, had toes stepped on, etc. as in that airport."

- Completly at odds with our experience. Perhaps we just got lucky, but I don't think so.

We found the Vietnamese people almost uniformly friendly and courteous. And that was certainly the experience of four friends of ours who've each spent several years living and working in Hanoi and HCMC and miss the people above all else. Perhaps we're all naive.

Quite odd- the HCMC airport is brand new (less than six months)and about 10 times the size of the old one. If you had people elbowing you and stepping on your toes, you must have been acting like a tourist in Times Square!

Granted the employees of the restaurants, shops and money changer in the new airport are about as rude as any I've ever experienced- and what's with everything being priced in US Dollars??- but outside the airport the people of Saigon and the Delta were pretty nice.

I will agree that it is a harder destination than Thailand, Siem Reap or Singapore, but that is part of the attraction for many visitors.

I have found street food there some of the safest and most appealing in southeast Asia. We certainly ate more vegetables than I would ever chance in Thailand or India.

I think you are correct when you say you missed it. Just because you didn't know where to find the good shopping, dining and entertainment doesn't mean it doesn't exist. john. It is kind of like walking outside a hotel in the financial district of NYC and saying there's no night life in New York City.

You can't compare Vietnam with Singapore or Hong kong those are very westernised places with modern facilities & prices to match. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy Vietnam but I think if you'd done your homework before you left you would have realised that this wasn't the place for you.

I am the original poster, and wish to offer a word of thanks to Kathie, RebeccaVT, cwn, ekscrunchy, and to rhkkmk for your thoughtful comments and observations. Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. Apparently I must certainly have missed some of what Vietnam has to offer.

May I remind the other posters at this point that we are all here to share experiences: the positive AND the negative. There is no requirement that we post only positive experiences.

Nor is there a requirement that we post only one hundred positive experiences before we post a negative experience.

The shrill comments by thursdaysd, the snide comments by bisbee and by neil oz are simply out of place in this forum. It is inappropriate of you to challenge my experiences simply because you did not have similar experiences. I am disappointed that you three could not contribute in a meaningful manner to this discussion about tourism in Vietnam. Or, are you three implying that I somehow did not experience what I indicated ? Please, get real!

"could not contribute in a meaningful manner" - you asked for positive experiences. I pointed you to three fairly lengthy trip reports. Did you read them?

"Nor is there a requirement that we post only one hundred positive experiences before we post a negative experience." True. But when the first and only post from someone is to put down a whole country on the basis of a very brief acquaintance, it raises suspicions.

johnwm, if you want to be taken seriously I can only suggest that you don't post comments like the entirely unsupported accusation that the Vietnamese government blitzes its people with anti-foreigner propaganda. And the comment about Ho Chi Minh's body's preservation, if meant humorously, is every bit as snide as my post. Your report was so unsided that it inevitably cast doubt on your bona fides.

"Unsided" should have read "one-sided" of course. Haven't yet had my second cup of coffee this morning.

Your post is not consistant with the Vietnam I know. You're right, you did miss it.

For you to say you saw little new construction in HCMC is rediculous. The entire city is under construction. All the main districts (which I would guess you stayed in one) have significant construction going on. It's quite hard to miss all the cranes located throughout the city.

John, could your disappointment with Vietnam been a result of misaligned expectations? Like when you read nothing but fabulous reviews of a restaurant, only to find out it's so-so, you come away feeling even worse about it?

I'm a "fluffy" traveler, myself, and will be the first to admit it. I prefer cities like Singapore, Paris, etc. ya know? But when I went to Vietnam last month, I knew exactly (well, almost) how much I'd be "roughing it." I blogged about it....
www.urbanmixplate.honadvblogs.com/page/6/
and was called a "rubber-neck tourist who belittles cultures different from her own" by an ex-pat living there. Who, me?! Talk about flame throwing!

It was definitely one of the "harder" trips I've done, and probably not my favorite destination, but I did enjoy myself and got a lot out of it. One needs to travel not just to see the world, but understand your place in it.

It's possible that you simply stayed in a part of each city that did not have the mix of commerce and nightlife that you were looking for. We stayed about a block from Dong Khoi, which is a really quaint shopping area, and three blocks from Thuong Xa Tax (Saigon Tax Trade Center). I am a shopaholic and would definitely have bought more if I were not so paranoid about going over the weight limit for luggage! We shopped until they put the gates down and turned out the lights, quite literally.

I think Mango7 is right, you may want to give it about 5 years and then go back to see what you may have missed, in an infrastructure that will surely be more tourist friendly. Everyone--residents as well as regular visitors--says that Vietnam is changing rapidly. Designer stores now stand where there were none, just a year ago. As lcuy says, the airport is brand new.

I dunno, I didn't see your total post as all negative. You left it open to people by asking if you might have missed something, and now you know that it is possible!

I spent two weeks in Vietnam (HCMC & environs, Hanoi/Ha Long Bay, Hue, Hoi An) in 1995. It was the best trip I've ever taken, and that was very much due to the friendliness and kindness of the people that my friend and I met everywhere we went.

Reading the original post, I see that johnwm was disappointed by the stores and merchandise and lack of evening-time commercial activity. While I'm sure much (much!) has changed since my 1995 trip, I can imagine that a visitor looking for that kind of easy-browsing,easy-wandering city experience might well be disappointed in Vietnam. I enjoy that kind of travel, too, but in Vietnam I was looking for, and found, the kind of travel that is more about learning how other people live.

Thank you both, MelissaH and tahl! Your comments were delightful to read, and very informative. I appreciate your sharing your experiences.

Actually, what mango7 mentioned is exactly what I have been telling persons who ask me "How was Vietnam?"

Johnwm,
I enjoyed your post. It was interesting and well thought out and presented nicely. Everyone has different views and I didn't think yours was negative... It was just your impression. Thank you and please keep posting.

Rebecca, what time of the year were you in Vietnam? Those are the areas we want to visit, but I'm really not sure when would be a good time to visit.

Thanks.

It's funny, cause when we in Vietnam last year...i thought it was alot more modern than what i was expecting..The highways were in such good shape (at least the one's we were on)..We had no problems at the airports...

And we also found it clean..(although we were in India for 2 weeks prior to arrving in Vietnam)

When we were in HCMC...we strolled down the streets in the evening and found plenty of shops and things to look at......same in Hanoi..

People were friendly..we took a cooking class in Hoi An and had a great time..

Also enjoyed our time in Hue, although it seemed less touristy there.

Really enjoyed the Halong Bay cruise...even though it was cold out!!

But overall...it was not my favorite destination i have travelled to, and i don't think i would visit again..but i am glad we went and we did have a good time..it is just not what i was expecting..I did not find it very exotic or too exciting...but..it was a great travel experience!!

To Kathie

You mentioned that you spent a week in Luang Prabang. What are your recommendations for a visit there? Did you go elsewhere in Laos and what would you suggest? How did you travel from Vietnam to Laos?

We will have two weeks to travel in January.

Thank you.

Carol

We didn't go to Laos and VN in the same trip. We went to LP from Bangkok. We only went to LP and the surrounding area in Laos. LP is a lovely, laid back place where you want to soak up the atmosphere. There are perhaps a dozen working wats, and visiting the wats and talking with the monks and novices is fascinating. There are day trips - the Pak Ou caves I highly recommend. There are two nearby waterfalls people visit though those were not highlights for me. We also visited the silk weaving co-op outside of LP, and visited a Hmong village celebrating Hmong New Year.

But LP is wonderful for slowing down and absorbing the place. It's about being, not about doing. We are very interested in Buddhism, so LP held a special attraction for us.

I think it is fine that johnwm felt he had a negative experience with his trip and wanted to know what he missed. We went to Vietnam on a tour in April and the trip turned out completely different, and far more wonderful, than I expected. I was anticipating beautiful scenery, temples, great food, etc (more like Thailand), but I came away with an a far different experience. We had a fantastic guide that brought us together with families, shopkeepers, etc.

The big impact for me was seeing and hearing about the results of the Vietnam/American war - how people from both sides deal with the results. We had a Vietnam vet on our trip, and met with several people who fought for the north. I did not expect the Vietnamese to be so incredibly welcoming, to be so friendly and engaging. To learn about their religions and how they view their place in the world. Their relationships with their families and how it compares to Americans. To see how they still live with the war remains - Agent Orange, bomb craters, land mines (mostly Cambodia), etc. And so much more. The trip was not the tropical paradise I expected, but it changed my life. It was a very emotional experience for me that I really didn't fully apppreciate till I got home.

My experience in Vietnam was similar to the orginal poster but i know by reading hundreds of posts on this board that there is an unwritten rule that if someone is honest and says they did not like a city and country, they will be attacked. So I did not bother to post.

Why can't people accept other travelers opinions regardless of they are pro or con on a destination?

Did you notice, "intellectual" that John requested positive experiences from others of VN and asked what he might have missed?

His last paragraph: "I am curious, though: could those of you Fodorites who felt Vietnam was a worthy tourist destination share some of your positive experiences with me? Could I have completely missed what Vietnam had to offer?"

I think we have given him the information he requested.

I do think people (rightly) were critical of John writing off a whole country on the basis of six days spent in two cities.

Anyone who has posted to this board very long has posted negative experiences as well as positive experiences. I certainly have.

SusanInToronto,
I apologize, I'm just coming back to this thread now, so I hope you find this...

I visited Northern Vietnam in early September. I thought the weather was perfect. It was right before the rice harvest in Sapa, so everything was green and lush. There was a bit of rain in Hanoi, Halong Bay and in Sapa, but it was mostly limited to an hour or so in the evening. It got pretty hot in Hoi An, so I got a hotel with a pool and spent a lot of time at the beach!

I have lived here for almost 3 years and I am from Toronto, it can be a very tough place to visit and live. The heat the humidity can be a real killer, and the congestion can be awful, but we gotten used to it. What I like is that there are very little adverts for materialistic items, and few if not any fast food places. You step back in time, however there is very little personal space and at times this can become depressing. Hanoi is about 20 years behing Bangkok,but everyday they are trying to catch up.I would never have thought to visit Hanoi, but there is a side to Hanoi that grows on you. I enjoy the history of Vietnam a place that has gone through hell and back and the people are a proud people.

I think johnwm hit the nail on the head when he said he was an "older" man....

Maybe he should do more research before planning his next trip....possibly to Rome Paris or London, which would appear to be more his cup of tea.

Part of the reason for visiting Vietnam is to experience a country that is not cluttered by tourist infrastructure, modern hotels and swank shopping plazas.

c'mon, guys. Cut the guy a break already...

I'm actually a "young" guy and, honestly, I can agree with a lot of the things john didn't like about Vietnam.

I found a lot of folks I encountered there to be decidedly chilly in comparison to most other SE Asian countries--and that has nothing to do with infrastructure at all.

We're all allowed our different opinions on where we've been. There's no reason to flay people who are simply expressing their different experiences.

Hey, filmwell! I'm also an "older" guy at 62!

<i> ... the night markets, and felt the booths were offering lesser quality merchandise. Perhaps the charm of it was for the locals ...</i>

Actually, I believe the night markets were created for the foreigners. When I visited Saigon two years ago I remember reading about the night market that was being created to serve the foreigners. This is part of the tourist &quot;infrastructure&quot; I suppose as apparently anyone who visits SEA or Hong Kong is expecting a night market.

<i>constant barrage of government propaganda against foreigners</i>
I don't know if such a barrage exists. But isn't one of the national themes about the resiliency of the Vietnamese under foreign oppression (Chinese, French, American) and how they repel the invaders? There is a certain well-earned xenophobia there, isn't there?

My impressions of Vietnam were generally negative also, but I would like to go back.

I have loved traveling in some countries that others have hated. Morocco is one of them.I think what is difficult for some to do is to drop their &quot;preconcieved cultural expectations&quot; when they visit a country. Go with an open mind. Lack of tourist sights and nice restaurants aren't a negative for me. For some, this is why they travel. Are you &quot;traveling&quot; or on &quot;vacation&quot;? There is a difference.
If you constantly compare your culture to the one you are in, you WILL be miserable.

Hi all,
You don't need to give Vietnam 5 years, come back now and see things are pretty much ready.
Futher to some parts of Kathie's report, things( prices ) have gone up twice as much of 2003.
Poor Johnwm! having worked in the tourism industry for over ten years, I met hundreds of American and none of them in general feedback as this bottom-list report.
May I invite you to come back to compensate for what you'd missed.

Hey, Mitch, you're not an &quot;older&quot; guy -- just getting into the prime of life I would say, especially if you now have more time to travel!

I never been to Vietnam but I am familiar with Asia ,I lived there for few years.
My son lives in Korea now, he went to Vietnam for two weeks and really enjoyed it.

His experience with the people that he met were quite different from yours John.

Actually he found the people in Viernam quite friendly and open..Very different from the reserved and cool Koreans.

As I said earlier I can only tell you his experience and opinion of that country.

Of course, he is used to deal with Asians and knows and understand their mentality and ways of life.