travel to china...organized tour or not?
Sep 5th, 2008, 10:00 PM
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travel to china...organized tour or not?
My husband and I love to plan our own trips....the thought of shlepping along in a group is not my idea of a vacation...that being said, it is possible to do China on one's own? what form of transportation is best between cities, car or train? We love planning, so I welcome everyone's opinion...also, we have the choice of june or august (I'm a teacher)..thanks
Sep 5th, 2008, 11:58 PM
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Traveling China as an independent traveler is certainly the way of seeing the real China - and for many is a far more genuine experience than tagging along with an organized tour group. But be warned - there can be challenges when it comes to getting around the country.
For travel to different cities trains, buses or air transport can be used - but one has to realize that, because of the huge size of China, travel distances between prime locations are often large ones and the slower forms of transport, such as train, can be a tad long-winded. To avoid major language troubles and jump over the difficulties of pre-booking travel (it can be difficult to book tickets - especially train tickets - far in advance) - you can get tickets from local travel agents as you travel. Travel agents that are based close to those hotels/hostels that have traditionally been used by backpackers are particularly understanding and knowledgeable in these matters. Also buying tickets as you go gives you that extra latitude to stop at those places you like a bit longer and skipping quickly through those you don't.
Hotels also don't need to be pre-booked - since there are so many hotel possibilities in all price categories - in all the cities - where turning up with you bags can work just fine. Many hotels, because of the intense competition in this sector, may also give good discounts to those who just turn up and ask for them - while the pre-booked folk often are just paying full-price.
If you want to travel into remoter areas - there is also a wealth of transport opportunity - but less chance of bumping into folk who'll understand English. In such circumstances one could hire guides/drivers/translators who will help you on your way - and who's services should still cheaper than joining in on one of those package tours!!!
By the way essential equipment for such travel is an appropriate type of guide book such as those found in the Rough-guide or Lonely-planet series.
For travel to different cities trains, buses or air transport can be used - but one has to realize that, because of the huge size of China, travel distances between prime locations are often large ones and the slower forms of transport, such as train, can be a tad long-winded. To avoid major language troubles and jump over the difficulties of pre-booking travel (it can be difficult to book tickets - especially train tickets - far in advance) - you can get tickets from local travel agents as you travel. Travel agents that are based close to those hotels/hostels that have traditionally been used by backpackers are particularly understanding and knowledgeable in these matters. Also buying tickets as you go gives you that extra latitude to stop at those places you like a bit longer and skipping quickly through those you don't.
Hotels also don't need to be pre-booked - since there are so many hotel possibilities in all price categories - in all the cities - where turning up with you bags can work just fine. Many hotels, because of the intense competition in this sector, may also give good discounts to those who just turn up and ask for them - while the pre-booked folk often are just paying full-price.
If you want to travel into remoter areas - there is also a wealth of transport opportunity - but less chance of bumping into folk who'll understand English. In such circumstances one could hire guides/drivers/translators who will help you on your way - and who's services should still cheaper than joining in on one of those package tours!!!
By the way essential equipment for such travel is an appropriate type of guide book such as those found in the Rough-guide or Lonely-planet series.
Sep 6th, 2008, 03:45 AM
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It might depend on where you want to go but, sure, it's possible to travel there independently.
I spent four weeks there, travelling solo in 1997. Of course I only did the usual "highlights", except perhaps for a journey from Guangzhou to Xiamen which I did by bus with one stopover.
I travelled by train Beijing-Xian-Chongquing. Boat to Wuhan; train to Guilin. Bus Yangshaou and overnight bus to Guangzhou. None of this was organised before I arrived in the country.
Ten years ago I was lucky to meet people once in a while to help me with the language when booking train tix, and it was a challenge sometimes finding places to eat.
But far more people will know some English now. And as there are two of you, and maybe you have a bigger budget than I had, you could fly, or use a car and driver. I have no idea how you go about organising that!!
In short, go for it.
Cheers.
I spent four weeks there, travelling solo in 1997. Of course I only did the usual "highlights", except perhaps for a journey from Guangzhou to Xiamen which I did by bus with one stopover.
I travelled by train Beijing-Xian-Chongquing. Boat to Wuhan; train to Guilin. Bus Yangshaou and overnight bus to Guangzhou. None of this was organised before I arrived in the country.
Ten years ago I was lucky to meet people once in a while to help me with the language when booking train tix, and it was a challenge sometimes finding places to eat.
But far more people will know some English now. And as there are two of you, and maybe you have a bigger budget than I had, you could fly, or use a car and driver. I have no idea how you go about organising that!!
In short, go for it.
Cheers.
Sep 6th, 2008, 05:35 AM
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China to me was actually much simpler than I had anticipated. I did do a lot of reading ahead of time, and the Oriental-list emails were invaluable, but much of what I did was just wandering blithely about, making arrangements as I went along. Granted, I did only do the fairly touristed route of Beijing/Xi'an/Chengdu, then on to Tibet, finishing up with Hong Kong, but it was all by myself except for the few days with an all-Chinese group in Tibet. (That, of course, was an experience in itself.)
If you'd like to read about it, it's here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...7&tid=34656568 There's a photo link there as well.
If you'd like to read about it, it's here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...7&tid=34656568 There's a photo link there as well.
Sep 6th, 2008, 07:45 AM
#6
Syl - the visa regulations were changed - requiring confirmed travel and hotel reservations - for the Olympics. We're all hoping they'll change back after the dust settles!
sarabeth - I've traveled in China both ways, and solo was more fun. For a first time trip you might want a tour if you're going really off the main tourist track, but otherwise you should do fine with a good guidebook with place names in characters) and a good phrase book (also with characters). I emphasize the need for characters for mainland China as I tried using pinyin with absolutely no success.
My last trip I spent seven weeks on my own, some of the TRs are at www.wilhelmswords.com/rtw2004. You do not drive yourself in China, and between cities you are better off taking the train rather than a bus if one is available. I find soft sleeper on Chinese trains very comfortable, and, of course, you can't see much from a plane.
sarabeth - I've traveled in China both ways, and solo was more fun. For a first time trip you might want a tour if you're going really off the main tourist track, but otherwise you should do fine with a good guidebook with place names in characters) and a good phrase book (also with characters). I emphasize the need for characters for mainland China as I tried using pinyin with absolutely no success.
My last trip I spent seven weeks on my own, some of the TRs are at www.wilhelmswords.com/rtw2004. You do not drive yourself in China, and between cities you are better off taking the train rather than a bus if one is available. I find soft sleeper on Chinese trains very comfortable, and, of course, you can't see much from a plane.
Sep 6th, 2008, 08:11 AM
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With regard to visa regulations during the Olympic period - visa agents should be able to procure tourist visas without you having to pay for any pre-booked travel arrangements.
This summer, during the time the games were on - we had some young guests from the UK, who had obtained their tourist visas from a visa agency in London that specialised in procuring Chinese visas. They had no trouble entering the country as fully independent tourists - and did not have to use any pre-booked hotels or transport.
The official Olympic period is due to end on October 17 - lets hope the visa situation gets back to totally normal after this date - and that visas can be easily obtained from consulates and embassies- rather than having to use the services of a visa agent.
This summer, during the time the games were on - we had some young guests from the UK, who had obtained their tourist visas from a visa agency in London that specialised in procuring Chinese visas. They had no trouble entering the country as fully independent tourists - and did not have to use any pre-booked hotels or transport.
The official Olympic period is due to end on October 17 - lets hope the visa situation gets back to totally normal after this date - and that visas can be easily obtained from consulates and embassies- rather than having to use the services of a visa agent.
Sep 6th, 2008, 09:33 AM
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Sep 6th, 2008, 09:59 AM
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This is a topic that has been discussed many times here, and a little use of the search box will find much comment both for and against. But tens of thousands of people without two words of Mandarin to rub together travel independently in the country every year.
As for travel between cities, flights are cheap and frequent, and on some routes at some times of year cost little more than train tickets. But travelling by train (which between most major cities is an overnight affair) gives you more of an idea of the scale of the country and provides an opportunity to interact with local people with whom you'll find yourself sharing a compartment. It can also be a more efficient use of time, since you're making progress while sleeping.
In the eastern part of the country in particular there's a rapidly growing network of luxury air-con buses that are often quicker than trains, particularly down the east coast.
But China travel doesn't admit to much planning, and it's best to sketch out a route and be prepared to alter it as you go--and that indeed is one of the obvious benefits of independent travel.
Most ticket booking of all kinds is last-minute. There are usually many options, so you'll get where you want to go, but if you leave yourself in the position where you must be on a particular train or plane you may find yourself having to re-think. Be flexible.
Booking from overseas for transport or hotels will almost always leave you paying a great deal more than you need to--easily double in many cases. Independent travel in China is best done on the fly, whether at no-star or five-star level.
> Travel agents that are based close to those hotels/hostels that have traditionally been used by backpackers are particularly understanding and knowledgeable in these matters.
Actually these are the agents that should be avoided in favour of agents away from such places (and away from major five-star hotels, and expat residential/office/shopping/diplomatic ghettos). All of them are equally knowledgeable on the simple business of selling airline tickets, but those targeting (high or low-end) foreigners are most likely to take you for a ride.
Many a backpacker in China, having followed their LP guide to a cheap hostel full of other LP readers, kisses the book for showing them a cheap room and proceeds to pay far too much for day tours, Internet access, food, and particularly tickets. (And often the hotel just round the corner is actually cheaper, newer, and friendlier, too.)
In the end someone just following an LP-led route around China has no more or less a 'real' or 'genuine' experience of China than someone on an organised tour. 'Reality', insofar as someone on a brief rush round the principal sights of an alien culture can hope to get in touch with it, comes through having read widely, through looking at things critically, and through choosing to deviate away from the brightly-lit route whether thats one led by guide or guide book. Even on a tour you can opt out of the group dinners and go off by yourself, for instance.
But there are reasons why the top sights are what they are and it's not unreasonable to want to see as many of those as possible in the short time available, and for many this is a holiday, not a sociology lesson. The point here is that no one who prefers independent travel to organised group travel should think twice about tackling China independently. But just as there are those who find tracking down a rail ticket to be part of the experience, there are those who quite reasonably want to avoid the logistics in favour of being reliably conveyed from A to B to C.
The need here, rather than looking down on this as not being 'genuine', is to make sure that these people understand what they are getting themselves into in China: utterly mendacious historical and cultural commentary; frequent shopping 'opportunities' with wild overpricing and kick-backs to guides; restaurants and hotels chosen with kick-backs to the travel company in mind; often food that's little different from the Chinese food served at home, thus avoiding one of the greatest pleasures of China--the very wide variety of its regional cuisines, cooked properly and not adulterated or adapted for foreign tastes.
But then many an independent traveller can be found eating banana pancakes at a limited list of restaurants with English-language menus, moving from one Yangshuo to another, and stopping at all the McDonald's in between. Is this more 'genuine'? In both cases what's needed are informed choices and an enquiring mind.
But certainly organised travel in China is a bit of a quagmire, where cheating travellers is the norm, and best avoided if only on those grounds.
Peter N-H
As for travel between cities, flights are cheap and frequent, and on some routes at some times of year cost little more than train tickets. But travelling by train (which between most major cities is an overnight affair) gives you more of an idea of the scale of the country and provides an opportunity to interact with local people with whom you'll find yourself sharing a compartment. It can also be a more efficient use of time, since you're making progress while sleeping.
In the eastern part of the country in particular there's a rapidly growing network of luxury air-con buses that are often quicker than trains, particularly down the east coast.
But China travel doesn't admit to much planning, and it's best to sketch out a route and be prepared to alter it as you go--and that indeed is one of the obvious benefits of independent travel.
Most ticket booking of all kinds is last-minute. There are usually many options, so you'll get where you want to go, but if you leave yourself in the position where you must be on a particular train or plane you may find yourself having to re-think. Be flexible.
Booking from overseas for transport or hotels will almost always leave you paying a great deal more than you need to--easily double in many cases. Independent travel in China is best done on the fly, whether at no-star or five-star level.
> Travel agents that are based close to those hotels/hostels that have traditionally been used by backpackers are particularly understanding and knowledgeable in these matters.
Actually these are the agents that should be avoided in favour of agents away from such places (and away from major five-star hotels, and expat residential/office/shopping/diplomatic ghettos). All of them are equally knowledgeable on the simple business of selling airline tickets, but those targeting (high or low-end) foreigners are most likely to take you for a ride.
Many a backpacker in China, having followed their LP guide to a cheap hostel full of other LP readers, kisses the book for showing them a cheap room and proceeds to pay far too much for day tours, Internet access, food, and particularly tickets. (And often the hotel just round the corner is actually cheaper, newer, and friendlier, too.)
In the end someone just following an LP-led route around China has no more or less a 'real' or 'genuine' experience of China than someone on an organised tour. 'Reality', insofar as someone on a brief rush round the principal sights of an alien culture can hope to get in touch with it, comes through having read widely, through looking at things critically, and through choosing to deviate away from the brightly-lit route whether thats one led by guide or guide book. Even on a tour you can opt out of the group dinners and go off by yourself, for instance.
But there are reasons why the top sights are what they are and it's not unreasonable to want to see as many of those as possible in the short time available, and for many this is a holiday, not a sociology lesson. The point here is that no one who prefers independent travel to organised group travel should think twice about tackling China independently. But just as there are those who find tracking down a rail ticket to be part of the experience, there are those who quite reasonably want to avoid the logistics in favour of being reliably conveyed from A to B to C.
The need here, rather than looking down on this as not being 'genuine', is to make sure that these people understand what they are getting themselves into in China: utterly mendacious historical and cultural commentary; frequent shopping 'opportunities' with wild overpricing and kick-backs to guides; restaurants and hotels chosen with kick-backs to the travel company in mind; often food that's little different from the Chinese food served at home, thus avoiding one of the greatest pleasures of China--the very wide variety of its regional cuisines, cooked properly and not adulterated or adapted for foreign tastes.
But then many an independent traveller can be found eating banana pancakes at a limited list of restaurants with English-language menus, moving from one Yangshuo to another, and stopping at all the McDonald's in between. Is this more 'genuine'? In both cases what's needed are informed choices and an enquiring mind.
But certainly organised travel in China is a bit of a quagmire, where cheating travellers is the norm, and best avoided if only on those grounds.
Peter N-H
Sep 6th, 2008, 05:55 PM
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If one has never been to China, and wants to be an independent traveler, then following a route between the more famous watering holes, such as Yangshuo, Lijiang, the Terracotta Warriors and Pandas, is a sensible way to go - for one very good reason - these are interesting, pleasant and easy places to stay.
If one wants a more genuine experience - then you may have to put up with difficult transport conditions (a lot of bad roads), far from appealing hotels, toilets to write home about, a rather limited food choice when compared with more famous tourist sites and the constant factor of being stared at by interested locals - which for some becomes a bit of an irritant.
As a bird watching guide, with many years China experience, I can quite easily put up with these so-called genuine conditions - but some of many guests, even as part of a tour group, with all the ease that brings to their China stay, take a bit of time getting used to them!!!
If one wants a more genuine experience - then you may have to put up with difficult transport conditions (a lot of bad roads), far from appealing hotels, toilets to write home about, a rather limited food choice when compared with more famous tourist sites and the constant factor of being stared at by interested locals - which for some becomes a bit of an irritant.
As a bird watching guide, with many years China experience, I can quite easily put up with these so-called genuine conditions - but some of many guests, even as part of a tour group, with all the ease that brings to their China stay, take a bit of time getting used to them!!!
Sep 6th, 2008, 07:01 PM
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As with a lot of things Chinese the situation regarding rules seems to vary from place to place.
My recent guests got their visas from an agency in London called Oriental Travel.
http://www.orientaltravel.co.uk/biztravel/visa.html
No bookings were required by this company - and our guests made their August entry into China through the immigration control between HK and Shenzhen (Lo Wu) - as independent travelers.
My recent guests got their visas from an agency in London called Oriental Travel.
http://www.orientaltravel.co.uk/biztravel/visa.html
No bookings were required by this company - and our guests made their August entry into China through the immigration control between HK and Shenzhen (Lo Wu) - as independent travelers.
Sep 7th, 2008, 07:08 PM
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You can travel without joining a big tour group but a 2-person group (you and your husband). You can also travel to China without joining any tour group but it is easier to get Visas by joining a tour group.
Transferring by car, by train or by plane depend on the distance between the two places, the quality of the roads and the place you go.
If the distance is not too far you can go by car otherwise by plane.
If you want to go to Tibet I suggest you take a train tour because the landscapes outside the train are really wonderful!
Transferring by car, by train or by plane depend on the distance between the two places, the quality of the roads and the place you go.
If the distance is not too far you can go by car otherwise by plane.
If you want to go to Tibet I suggest you take a train tour because the landscapes outside the train are really wonderful!
Sep 7th, 2008, 07:43 PM
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If you want to see the real Tiber - both with regard to its ethnic splendor and scenic riches - then I'm afraid tourist crowded Lhasa, although having such great sights as the Potala, is not the best Tibetan destination.
A great alternative is to explore Sichuan Tibet - with its massive mountains, monasteries, grasslands and fantastic people. Cars, drivers and guides can be hired in Chengdu - and a week out here can be a totally awesome experience.
Recently these areas have been difficult to access because of political troubles - however with the games ending and the riots sinking ever longer into the past - these areas are once again being visited by more travelers.
A great alternative is to explore Sichuan Tibet - with its massive mountains, monasteries, grasslands and fantastic people. Cars, drivers and guides can be hired in Chengdu - and a week out here can be a totally awesome experience.
Recently these areas have been difficult to access because of political troubles - however with the games ending and the riots sinking ever longer into the past - these areas are once again being visited by more travelers.
Sep 7th, 2008, 07:47 PM
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Few travel agents could offer good group tours but many do not. Good for a group tour is that you could travel with lots of people;negative things from a group tour is that like you are not cared too much by your travel agent. Your guide have to take care of so many people but not only you. Moreover, it is not flexible when you want to do any change to your tour. In a private tour, not that problems.
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