tripforbrian

Hi all ,
first timers to china here. Family group of 9 including 2 seniors and 4 children trying to see diversity in the cities we cover. It was suggested to us by a local tour company to do 4 days in bejing,3 days guilan/yangshou, 2 days hong Kong, 2 days in Bangkok. Wondering if perhaps we should leave out Bangkok as once we are in China should stay in China. we are not likely to get back to the region however and would like to cover many cities without collapsing. My group is not terribly interested in what we have been told is the "one horse town" of xian so please do not suggest inserting. If we leave out Bangkok can you suggest another interesting city? I am quite confused and appreciate all posts., Thanks

Hanuman

Sounds very rush to me especially from Guillin/Yangshuo, Hong Kong and Bangkok part. You will end up spending a lot of time flying and going back and forth to the airport to get any appreciation of any of the city.

BillT

Leave out Bangkok - oh my god no what a big mistake. Go ahead and visit China but you must do Bangkok and you will right away see the difference- BIG difference in the service, friendliness of the people etc. Bangkok has the best infrasturcture of all Asian cities- with its skytrain, subway, water taxis etc.

Kathie

Bangkok is my favorite city in the world. But the itinerary you outline is crazy. If you want Bangkok, cut another location. Remember you have to account for travel time. Two nights in Bangkok is a mere one day.

Cicerone

Including Bangkok on a trip to the PRC and Hong Kong seems unusual, as you seem to have guessed. Doing so for only 2 days seems like a like of time and money to spend for a very short amount of time in Bangkok, an extremely interesting city, but with sights rather spread out, and some traffic issues. With a group that big, you may not be able to cover ground as quickly as you would like. Finally, doing so in what I assume would be the summer months with seniors could be a recipe for collapsing if you have not looked at the average temps in Bangkok for those months. While Beijing and Hong Kong are going to be hot (and Hong Kong quite humid and a bit rainy), Bangkok will be even hotter and more humid, with humidity more than 90% most days (and also a bit rainy). Without knowing the age of the seniors it is hard to gage, but in my experience, people over 70 have issues with the heat and humidity here.

The air pollution in all of these places is also quite bad (although in Hong Kong in the summer it is better than the winter and Guilin probably the least polluted of them all), so you may want to avoid Bangkok for that reason as you may have had enough at that point.

Also, without any idea of your interests beyond “seeing it all” it is quite hard to advise what may be a good choice for you. One man’s meat is another man’s poison.

I know from your other posts that you were considering Shanghai, again a <i>very</i> polluted city which is bound to be hot (not one of my favorites I must confess, although it has interesting modern skyscraper architecture). You might consider Lijiang, this is a bit harder to get to (must fly to Kunming then drive), and with your limited time may not be worth it. Or consider something like a few days on a beach on Hainan Island the “Hawaii” of China (some hyperbole there, but some pretty beaches to be sure and fairly easy to reach.) Personally, if this were my trip I would spend more time in the 3 places you already have on your itin, and see more in those places. <i>Less is more</i> is my travel mantra.

For what it is worth, I do not consider Xian to be a one-house town at all. It has several interesting old town areas, an extensive ancient city wall, a good museum, a significant pagoda, all in addition to the terracotta warriors which surely rank as one of the most interesting sights in the world.

rhkkmk

cancel bkk and spend 4 days in HK

Kathie

No question, you are much better off to spend those last two days in Hong Kong, giving you 4 days in a fascinating city.

usernameistaken

Did anyone else notice the double entendre in the posting title? Sne this is a family trip, I doubt the OP meant it, but it made me chuckle....

tripforbrian

hi all,
Thanks for your (mostly) helpful posts. I appreciate the time taken here to help. Still trying to come up with an itinerary my group finds interesting and diverse without bringing on sheer exhaustion. now the tour company is suggesting bejing, guilan, shanghai, hong kong and Bangkok ( or singapore in liu of bangkok.) still have the same 2 weeks. I understand those that feel it is too ambitious an agenda; ambitious agendas seem to work well for us. as between Singapore and Bangkok, which city is more substantially and culturally different than those visited in china? please advise

filmwill

wait...you're talking about adding another city now?!? That's not ambitious (and this is coming from someone who loves to move around a lot)--that's just a disaster waiting to happen.

stick to china. you're cramming WAY too much in. unless you enjoy spending half your vacation in airports, i don't think you're proposing an enjoyable trip.

rhkkmk

singapore is quiet western and orderly

bangkok is western in some ways but very unique in other ways... i vote bkk if you have to do this...

Hanuman

I recommend that you add Hanoi, Ubud and, last but not least, Seoul as well.

Kathie

Tour companies are always glad to sell you more - after all, they get a commission on everything they sell you. So now the tour company says 5 locations in 14 days (at most) on the ground. That is crazy. Take a look ay a globe. I know you did a whirlwind trip of Italy... but look at Italy and look at China - there is a huge difference in the size of these countries... as well as infrastructure, cultural barriers, etc. And now there is a suggestion to add another city outside of China thereby adding another culture and a multi-hour plane flight.

If your idea of a good time is to spend half of your time in transit, this is the trip for you. Sheer exhaustion is a mild form of what you'll experience with this itinerary. I can guarantee you that you'll all be at each other's throats within the first couple of days.

In 10 days on the ground, 3 locations max. If you have 14 days on the ground you could do 4 locations all in the same country.

marya_

tripforbrian:

It is a very impressive feat to get all 9 members of a family group -- including 2 seniors and 4 children -- organized and in synch for travel. Multiple travel segments with all the packing, unpacking, waiting, etc., can really tire everyone out and try everyone's patience even when the air transport and ground arrangements are flawlessly executed (a big if). Add in jet lag, possible digestive disturbances from unfamiliar food, and squabbling and it can be quite a ride. We have found that we only move as fast and as efficiently as the least disgruntled member of our (smaller) family. One unhappy or passive-aggressive camper makes it so tough for everyone else.

You obviously know all that and know that your group can handle it. More power to you. At the next level of assessment, we are still worried that you will spend so much time in transit that you won't really see and savor much.

You are paying for 9 visas for China, China is enormous, and you don't have all that much time on the ground so some of us would recommend dividing your 11 days among, say, 3 locations in China.

Enough said. It is your trip. If you want to finish up in Singapore or Bangkok, can you give us more sense of what you are looking for, how you plan to spend your time? Are they equally feasible from the point of view of routing?

Two other thoughts:

1. Who is advising you on this first-time journey? Tour companies aren't necessarily your best advisors, as you probably know. People here speak from (sometimes painful) experience that can be instructive.


2. For what it's worth, I very strongly agree with Cicerone's assessment of Xian. The mistake we made as a family is not spending enough time there because it is so much more exciting than the Terracotta Warriors (and they were very moving to see once you got past the touts). It may not be right for you on this trip but I want to take issue with the above characterization (however humorous).

Good luck!

Cicerone

My main issue, other than that your tour company appears to have no concept of what travel in Asia is like, is that your tour company seems to be just picking <u>the</u> most mainstream tourist places on the map and telling you to go there. For 2 days each. And you are listening. I was bored just reading the itin. <i>Yawn</i>.

There has been no suggestion that you go to Ankor Wat, Luang Prabang or other small places which <i>might</i> actually lend themselves to being seen on a 2-day trip (albeit getting to those places from the PRC is not always easy). Your itin consists only of huge to quite large cities, which to me shows little imagination in planning, mostly because such a short time is being given to them. No joking, I think Hanoi <i>would</i> be more interesting than Shanghai, and certainly different. But the trees are being lost for the forest here, I think.

Another issue is that my guess is that you don’t actually have 14 days “on the ground” you actually have 12 or possibly less. You will lose a day coming over on the flight from the US, and you are unlikely to be able to do much sightseeing on your last day. Therefore, if you look at your itin, my guess is that you will have at most 12 days to sightsee. Look at the flight times between the various cities you are considering; traveling between those places will take half a day or more. (As an example, Hong Kong to Beijing is 3 hours, not counting travel time to and from the airport, security, Immigration, baggage claim, etc. This is easily 7 hours for the trip.) Thus, you will actually be squeezing your sightseeing into 2 days per city, and spending an not inconsiderable amount of time in airports. Oh boy, <i>bored <u>and</u> tired</i>. Where do I sign up?

Yes of course your itin CAN be done physically, but the tree being lost in the forest here is whether you would you actually find it a worthwhile trip.

In terms of your decision above, Singapore and Bangkok are quite different from each other, and both are quite different from the cities in mainland PRC. To begin with, both Singapore and Bangkok are tropical, which is not the case with the other cities on you are list (Hong Kong is sub-tropical.) Having lived in both Singapore and Hong Kong, I can say that those two cities are quite different from each other, although many people would assume otherwise from a casual visit to both. Singapore is heavily influenced by its Indian and Malay population, which gives it a unique culture. This influences its traditions and its food especially. Of course to the casual visitor there for 2 days, you may not notice this as much, as the city has a far greater Chinese population than Bangkok. Singapore has more of its colonial architecture remaining than the other former colonial cities you are seeing (other than some parts of Shanghai which are teetering on the edge of development.) Chinese Singaporeans practice Mahayana Buddhism which incorporates elements of Taoism, as does the PRC and Hong Kong, while Thailand practices Theravada Buddhism as followed in SE Asia/Sri Lanka. This heavily influences temple art, not to mention theology. Singaporeans are mostly Teochew or Fujian Chinese, who come from southern coastal areas of mainland China, and are different in temperament and culture from the northern Chinese you will see in Beijing and Shanghai or the interior provinces around Guilin. Thais are of course a different ethnic group altogether. The cultural (esp food) differences among Chinese dialect groups can be quite broad, but again, on a 2-day visit, this is not something you may get a chance to appreciate, so Singapore may just look like another “Chinese” city to you. In that respect, Bangkok may be more noticeably “different”.

Both Bangkok and Singapore have nice people, great food, interesting shopping, and are safe. Singapore has better public transport and little traffic. Bangkok has more to offer in terms of sites like royal palaces and monasteries, and also has the river which is always interesting. Singapore has some really excellent museums and interesting ethnic neighborhoods like Little India, and the Malay and Arab areas. You would have a chance to see Hindu temples in Singapore (which you will not see in the PRC), but conversely would have the opportunity to see some very interesting Buddhist temples in Bangkok which will be different in style than those you will see in the PRC. Singapore is cleaner and has far less air pollution than Bangkok. Temps will be similar, although Singapore will be a little bit less humid. Singapore has some nice beach areas, although I would not go there for the beach, perhaps for an afternoon walk or a seafood meal. Thailand is a Kingdom and the people are devoted to their King, as well as having some interesting political machinations going on now and in the past; Singapore is essentially a one-party state which also can be quite interesting to observe, esp how the local press operates.

Really, as you only have 2 days I would say the choice could not matter less. Flip a coin. Neither requires a visa for US citizens. Look at flight schedules and see which works better for the intra-Asia flights. Look at returning flights to the US from both and see whether one is more convenient than the other.

But mostly, I would say don’t go to either, but instead just concentrate on improving the itin you already have. And possibly find a new tour company.

dogster

I'm amazed by the generosity of the other posters in here. How many more times, in how many ways, can we tell the OP her scheduling is bizarre? Her travel agent can smell the dollars in the air. They'll give her anything she wants.

The OP doesn't actually want itinerary advice from anyone. Now, all she wants to know is which is better, Singapore or Bangkok. Everything else is immaterial:

'...I understand those that feel it is too ambitious an agenda; ambitious agendas seem to work well for us...'

'...I appreciate all the posts that have encouraged us to limit to 3 cities, my group seems intent on covering as much ground as possible even at a frantic pace...'

'I don't mind only doing 1-2 days in the place to get a feel of what is there. While in Italy for my other son's bar mitzvah we covered the country much the same way...'

'...if we want leisure we will take a cruise to the carribean [sic]...'

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...-this-trip.cfm

Frankly, we're wasting our time. She hears us. She doesn't care. Ignorance is bliss. Her response to repeated posts advocating the opposite? Add another city. Then, after more posts pointing out the obvious, what does she do? Adds ANOTHER city.

'Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise...'
Thomas Gray. 1742

Gpanda

The sum of our recommendations is that your trip is too hectic. You will lose too much by rushing around. You'll get a real feel for airports and minivans and miss the charm of Asia.

I do recognize that a trip for nine people may need the help of a travel agent. However, you do not have to follow their agenda. Skip Bangkok and spend the last four days in Hong Kong. Just tell your agency that this si what you want. They will adjust.

While we're at it, don't let them overplan your time in Beijing.

marya_

Generous fools perhaps for belaboring it, but here's the vexing part -- there's a whole family of aging and young dependents poised to "suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous (mis)fortune" here if the plan is more-or-less executed as it stands.

We feel like "tak(ing) arms" against the "sea of troubles" that they could so easily avoid.

Since she (more or less) dusted off the Hamlet soliloquy and I am now recklessly chipping away at it to divert myself, isn't there a line in there somewhere about out "our conscience (making) cowards of us all"? People on Fodor's have helped my family a good deal so I guess I feel obligated to sing out against this troubling proposal. For the sake of the kids and the elders.

Even if she doesn't pay any mind, which is her right, someone else less experienced in travel who can attend to our collective chorus of "No, Never!" is probably reading along and developing valuable insights on how to pace Asian travel.

Remember when you were young enough such that someone's saying "It can't be done" felt like a worthy challenge to accomplish that very "it" of dubious value -- at whatever personal cost -- just to prove that somebody oh-so-wrong? I, for one, am glad those days are over.

usernameistaken

My two cents (for what it's worth) - I am not as expert as the rest of the posters and have not been to China. However, I am no stranger to "ambitious agendas" and I can tell you that Asia is a completely different animal than Europe.

I feel for ya, tripforbrian, knowing you may not get there again, but, as these folks are telling you, less can be more, especially when you have only 2 weeks. I ahd to resist the urge to overplan my 11 day trip to Thailand - I limited myself to two stops and am mighty thankful that I did.

My points:

1) Jet lag from the US to Asia is a BEAST (I have been awake for four straight nights), especially on the east-bound leg.
No matter how excited you are to be there, you will feel sleepy in the afternoon and it may be hard to sleep at night, even if you have managed to stay awake all day. It's important, therefore, to try and build some R&R time.

2) I totally agree about being wary of tour companies. The last time I used one was because I didn't have much time to plan my trip to Australia and the silly bunny at Qantas Vacations assured me that driving from Melbourne to Adelaide would be easy to do in four days with plenty of time to do stuff. The opposite was true, we spent the bulk of those four days driving with barely any time to stop anywhere just so we could catch our stupid flight out of Adelaide. I even got a speeding ticket because of my race against time. QV was supposed to be the expert on travel in Oz - not only was she woefully misinformed but also she wrongly assured me that I would get FF miles for my flight (I ended up getting NO MILES after paying $1400 for the stupid Airpass when separate flights would have been cheaper). The hotels she suggested were awful (I booked my hotels independently). Plus, the whole "package" would have been cheaper to book on my own.

After that trip, my wonderful husband issued an edict that, from now on, we stay in less places for more time. I hate to admit it, but he is right. And so are these folks.

Are you intent on China? Because I am telling you, I could easily spend two weeks in Thailand!!!