Still contemplating SEA this winter and have questions
 

I've been following up on advice some of you have given me and am trying to sort things out in my mind about a possible Jan./Feb. trip of close to six weeks. I've also gotten some guidebooks from the library and have been skimming them. This is my take, and I may be wrong.

Myanmar--rapidly changing but no longer a hidden destination, "good" lodging is in short supply in peak season, worth perhaps 2 weeks time, probably the most expensive destination, dusty, major tourist locales can be overrun with package tourists

Laos--less developed, a good choice for those who love nature and outdoor activities, in the middle range of this group of countries as far as price, perhaps a good place to slow down in several of the towns, potential for smoke and soot from burning off the fields in places

Cambodia--extremely crowded at Angkor Wat but it is possible to avoid crowds, maybe more low key not as intriguing as the other countries listed. I am not certain my take on this country is correct

Thailand--the most developed and most touristy, probably the cheapest, may have the most diversity of things to do

Vietnam--is the only country among these that we have already visited, so I am a bit familiar with it but would contemplate adding it into the mix to see places we did not see before. However, I need to do the real deal as far as getting a visa whereas the other countries I can more easily get a visa. So, I would need a really firm plan soon if I want to include Vietnam.

Are my assumptions about these countries generally correct?

I am thinking that for any of these destinations other than Vietnam my best bet for cheapest flights from the US would be in and out of Bangkok and then figure out connecting transportation from there? Am I right? Or, are there other gateways I should be looking at? Or, if I had a firm plan would I be better off trying to find flights directly into the countries we want to visit?

If we do this, right now I am thinking about an in-depth tour of Laos and visiting Siem Reap (perhaps other parts of Cambodia too) as top contenders for realistically pulling together a last minute trip during peak season.

Do you think Laos and Cambodia could fill about 5-6 weeks, or would I need to add in something else? Some places we like to stop to savor, and some don't hold our attention very long. We've found that often just observing and taking in the everyday captures our attention as much as the normal tourist biggies. Rural areas and smaller villages call to us, and we'd probably be interested in a couple days of hill tribe trekking. We are pretty adventuresome, and our trips are always a mix of activities rather than an exclusive focus on one type of thing such as temples or trekking or big cities. We are in our 60s but active and like observing cultural differences, just wandering around in interesting towns, visiting intriguing markets, interesting architecture, nature-based activities, days of not super strenuous walking/hiking, getting away from the crowds and tour bus groups, visiting temples and sites in unique natural settings, taking in some museums. We don't want to go to the beach, aren't shoppers, aren't fans of large cities void of charm, and can become victims of temple fatigue.

Once again, thanks much.

1. Are your assumptions generally correct? - I would say they are pretty much correct apart, perhaps, from Cambodia. I find it a fascinating country but you do need to get off track a little. We visited Angkor for the third time this year and were really shocked by how busy it had become. I doubt it would be possible to avoid the crowds in Jan/ Feb. Also, having spent most of the last year in SEA we found Vietnam and Cambodia to be the cheapest countries in which to travel.

2. Visiting Lao and Cambodia in Jan should be fine as far as the smoke is concerned.

3. Given your interests outlined in your penultimate paragraph, I would say a combination of Laos and Cambodia would suit you perfectly. A circuit of the far north from Luang Prabang and then a trip south maybe taking in the Bolavens Plateau, Si Phan Don and then into Cambodia via Kratie would be a great trip over 5-6 weeks.

4. Another alternative, if you wanted to include Vietnam, would be to head north from LP and cross the border at Dien Bien Phu and loop down to Hanoi via Sapa or maybe even up to Ha Giang, a relatively unexplored part of the country. Check out travelfish.org for details of border crossings.

5. As far as Vietnam visas are concerned, by far the easiest and cheapest visa option is to get a visa approval letter through one of the online agencies and just get it stamped on arrival. NB this only works for arrival by air at Saigon, Hanoi or Da Nang.

Crellston gave great advice, but I have just a little to add:

Figure out a rough itinerary first, and then get you plane tickets. I would go into one city, and leave from another.

I would add Battambang in Cambodia in order to see the interesting city, and do a day trip there into the countryside to see the beauty and the history of the genocide there. Cambodia is quite beautiful, I don't know why more people don't go there.

Have you considered adding Malaysia? I just got back from three weeks there, and it was wonderful. Your interests are almost identical to mine, so I know you would love the nature there. I enjoyed the caves, wildlife (elephants and orangutans), and best of all, there were no tour groups!

As usual, I agree with crellston. Laos and Cambodia would make a good trip, and I think you are shortchanging Cambodia. Phnom Penh is certainly worth seeing. If you add Battambang there is the bamboo express as well as the surrounding countryside. Then you shouldn't skip the coast.

My first trip to SEA included both Laos and Cambodia, admittedly on Intrepid tours, but I thoroughly enjoyed both. See: http://wilhelmswords.com/asia2002/index.html

Let me make a couple of comments on your assumptions about Myanmar. It is true it is no longer an off the track destination, but it gets lets than 10% of the visitors of Thailand or other popular SEA destinations. It's worth a month if you have the time, and a month is as long as a visa will allow you to stay. Dusty? Some places, some times, but I wouldn't describe the country as dusty. "overrun with package tourists" - some places, some times, but not as much as other places in SE Asia.

Accommodation prices are higher than other places in SEA, mostly because accommodations are at a premium due to the influx of visitors. It isn't that the numbers are so high, but that the country had so few visitors for so long they aren't set up for lots of visitors. I think those of us who have been there before the country opened are partially responsible for the perception that it is now overrun. But fabulous places like Bagan are so huge - over 2000 pagodas spread across a large plain means that it is very easy to go places where there are no other visitors. And as you know, package tourists all go to the same places (and all at the same time), so opting for less popular temples makes a big difference. We were at the 40 caves temple in Sagaing (near Mandalay) recently and saw probably 6 or 8 other Western couples which seemed like a lot to us as there and been no western visitors there when we last visited in 2011. Imagine visiting an incredible Buddhist temple elsewhere and seeing that number of western tourists in an hour - you would call it nearly deserted!

I don't know that you could get the kind of accommodation you want for this year, so that may be a reason to postpone.

Thanks for the responses. I'll spend some more time researching Cambodia, and I'll also have to take a look at the map of Cambodia. When we did our Vietnam bicycle trip in the Mekong Delta we were right on the Cambodian border and visited a place that had been the local epicenter for the Khymer Rouge killings. It was terribly sad seeing the shrine that was built to contain all of the skulls. Skulls were separated by age of the victim, and the pile of babies' skulls was even more heartbreaking than the rest.

I have not thought about Malaysia since I believe overall the weather would be better for March visit. For family reasons we can't extend into March this year, but we could another year.

I guess I will try to figure out a possible itinerary and then look once again at airfares and the idea of possibly visiting more of Vietnam. Last trip we flew from Saigon to Hanoi, so it is the middle of the country that we missed out on. We also took the train from Hanoi to Bac Ha and spent a couple days hiking to remote villages in that area. I have a general idea of what it would cost us to get a round trip flight to Bangkok, so I'd need to add in the cost of transportation between Cambodia and Laos and then make a decision as to where to fly into.

Kathie--We were apparently posting at the same time. I did randomly pick out a few dates and took a look at booking.com to see about availability of lodging in a couple different places. Of course, this was totally random as far as dates, and I also still am uncertain if those online booking machines really work for Myanmar.

We typically prefer to stay away from the types of lodging where tour groups would book themselves into anyway, preferring to support the local economy and families by staying in places more intimate and unique than corporate or chain-run places. Or, in the case of this particular country, places owned and run by ex-military. But, I don't know if lodging of the type we prefer is even available for people who are looking for mid-range lodging. I got advice here to contact an agency to check on possible availability, but it is very difficult to make a contact when my dates and times and whether we would even do this are all so vague.

Thanks for your response.

Booking engines like Booking.com or agoda.com do work for Myanmar, but aren't always the best way to go. There is an odd system in the country of allocating rooms to agents at particular prices (lower than market rates). So an agent might be able to get you a room at a place that is listed as sold out on the booking engines, and at a price lower than the booking engines had. Also, if you tell them what you are looking fro a good agent can find you the kind of accommodation you are seeking. It's not hard to avoid places owned by the generals and their cronies.

But you are right it is hard to ask an agent when your plans are so vague. You might consider starting to research Burma for next year.

We are heading off to Laos next week, doing our own thing. Asia/Indochina is the easiest region for travelling. Safe and friendly.

We have been doing business with partners in Asia since late 1970s, never had a problem, as long as we look each other in the eyes.

If it's dry in Myanmar, which it usually is, then it'll be dusty, very dusty.

Few roads are sealed.

We hired a car/driver for 2 weeks, battered out Toyota Corolla. Every morning we started freshly showered. By the end of the day, much of which spent on orange dusty roads we had orange faces, orange hair, and orange clothing. It was that dusty!

LL, you would hardly recognize the place now! There is a new highway from Yangon to Mandalay, and the new highway from Mandalay to Pyin U Lwin was being completed when we were there in 2011. This is not to say that all of the roads have been repaired, but the improvement was amazing! And I did't see a single beat-up Corolla the whole time we were there - and those were almost the only taxis available when we were last there. Now, if you wanted to hire a car and driver, you could easily get a newish car to take you around.

The one place I would describe as dusty is Bagan, as there are so many tiny "trails" to individual pagodas.

I'm curious about the approximate cost of a car and driver for a day in Burma. What was your approach to hiring a driver--book in advance with an agency or just get your hotel (or an agency) to arrange one for you when you are actually are on the ground? We've used all three methods in other countries.

I've also used all three methods in various places. This trip, we paid US$70 for a full day of driving and guiding (something we don't usually do) in a remote area near Mandalay. This was a driver-guide we found though a contact on Thorntree. We paid US$50 for a full day of a car and driver (no guiding) in the nearer Mandalay area, booked through our agent in Yangon. And last trip we paid US $50 a day for a car and driver (no guiding) booked through our hotel. IME, the factors that play into this the most are whether the driver will also act as a guide, the distances driven and whether any special vehicle is required (4 wheel drive or a mini van for more passengers or loads of luggage).

<<<There is a new highway from Yangon to Mandalay...>>>

That's the road that runs right down the spine of the country Yangon-Naypyitaw-Mandalay.

The road is dead-straight, surfaced but poorly so, and potentially v.dangerous. See this link...

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/death...ic-safety.html

Apart from getting you up/down the spine relatively quickly, it's a very boring trip, even worse if it's slash and burn season, when distant visibility is zilch. All the sights and places of interest are where the locals are, and that's in, through and around the villages, which are all orange dust surfaces, and the going is slow.

This a very good general link...

http://www.ridetheroad.com/myanmar-burma-2006-10/

I must admit that when I read in one of the links the reference to forced labor being used to build the main highway, it reminded me once again of why in the past many people (I included) did not want to bring my tourist money to such a country. On another note, it reminded me of the time in India I had an argument with a local agent who was arranging a driver for us. He couldn't believe I was insisting on a car with passenger seat belts!

I know Kathie loves Myanmar. LL, what are your thoughts on the country? I am interested because I know you also spent quite a bit of time in Nepal (I read your trip report notes several years ago). We really enjoyed Nepal just as we have really liked all of the time we have spent in India.

Thanks to both of you.

<<<LL, what are your thoughts on the country?>>>

Loved it, particularly the people.

Bear in mind, this was almost 6 years ago.

I had an idea of where we wanted to see, but really didn't have much of a clue what to expect apart from trying to make sure that our money went into the hands of the people and not into government coffers. I didn't know how we were going to travel around, which is why we chose to stay in Yangon for 4 nights to start with, and give us a chance to organise ourselves.

Our driver/guide was also our taxi driver [Golden Swallow Taxis] from the Yangon Airport to our hotel. He got us talking on the short journey, seemed genuine enough, and we hired him for a day trip into the surrounding countryside to test him out. He was v.good. So it went from there.

Yangon was interesting. A lot of it looked as though it needed demolishing! Nice that there were no motorbikes to contend with, but Mandalay made up for that!

After the first 4 nights in Yangon at the excellent Summit Parkview Hotel [v.close to Shwedagon Pagoda] we set off on our 14 day tour in an old right-hand drive, no a/c, Toyota Corolla. We felt every bump [lots of them!] along the way.

Our driver/guide spoke excellent english, was a physics graduate, and had far too much knowledge of his country and it's history for us to take in. His wife has a Masters in Physics, but worked as a seamstress!

Our trip started at the Taukkyan Commonwealth War Graves on our way out of Yangon. Very moving, and like all Commonwealth War Graves around the world immaculately maintained.

Then we started in earnest at Bago, Taungoo [1 night], Bagan [3], Mt Popa, Mandalay [2], Pwin oo Lwin [2], Kalaw [2], Inle [2], Taungoo [1], and we had our last night back at the Summit parkview.

We made sure on the way north that we took the new highway passing the mysterious new capital city of Naypyitaw. We fancied a drive round, but our driver said it's be best not to.

Because our visit was totally at ground level in a car, we were able to stop where and went we wanted, and we passed through a lot of places that most tourists won't see.

The Temples of Bagan were a highlight, we started with the smallest and worked upwards. So long as we could avoid the tour groups we were happy, but at sunrise and sunset they're unavoidable.

Mt Popa was great. Mandalay a bit of a disappointment, although we had a nice drive to a lake [?] for sunset. Loved Pwin oo Lwin, but wished we'd taken the early morning train there from Mandalay, the drive to Kalaw was back-breaking but worth the effort, enjoyed Inle but it was slash and burn season so visibility was bad. Our first overnight, at Taungoo we got invited to join a 5 man 'boozy' film crew from Latvia who were in Myanmar to film anything 'bad' they could find.

My trip in 2004 was similar to LL's but I went round clockwise. I never wrote it up (maybe if I ever finish this year's trip), but I still have the journal. I don't guarantee the spellings.

Yangon via Bago (not v. good stupa) to Taungo (1 night). All day drive, scenery reminds me of Cambodia. Diesel trucks and bullock carts.

Taungo to Inle (3 nights at Golden Star), leave at 8:00 arrive at 6:00. Country goes from dry and scrubby to hilly and road becomes narrow and windy. Villages take tolls. Stop for a bullock sale. Love, love the lake but lots of tourists around (even in 2004!) Avoid the floating market.

Inle to Mandalay (2 nights Mandalay View Inn) arrive after dark. Visit Mingun by boat. Eindawya Paya. Shwa In Bin Kyung - beautiful wood carving. Marionette show. Liked Mandalay more than most people seem to.

Mandalay via Mt. Popa to Bagan (3 nights Silver Moon). Did not take the boat because government run. Many vendors, not so many tourists. Visit MANY stupas, also museum and Gubyaukgyi for paintings.

Bagan to Pyay (1 night, bad hotel not recorded)

Pyay to Yangon via the War Cemetery

Friends of mine have visited twice, off the beaten track. You can read their Myanmar posts here:
http://meckleyearth.blogspot.com/search/label/myanmar

I appreciate the time both of you have taken to respond to me (and the blog link).

LL--you say that you were there during slash and burn season. What month was that?

<<<LL--you say that you were there during slash and burn season. What month was that?>>>

Last 3 weeks of February 2010.
It was v.hot, and didn't rain at all.