filmwill

In my grand travel-obsessive tradition, upon recent return from our Japan & Thailand trip (arrived back in LA this past Wednesday morning), I'm already well into planning our next big trip for December of this year.

Literally on the flight back from this trip, we narrowed down our list to 3 possible destinations currently on our short-list: New Zealand, Argentina or Bhutan. All have been high up on our list of to-dos for a long time...and we toiled over the pros and cons of each possible destination. But what it most likely comes down to--and this is based on some preliminary airline research--is the wildly high availability of mileage tickets to Asia vs. the other 2 destinations (not even a contest as far as choice goes: tickets to Bangkok and Singapore are available almost every day and there's only 1 or 2 days per month available for the other two.) That kind of seals the deal on where we go. It's Bhutan. (YES...finally!)

I've read through a few Bhutan trip reports so far -- including Craig's amazingly helpful one from a few years back. Even though December isn't what one would consider 'peak' season, my understanding from friends who have gone is that December--while slightly colder--is absolutely a fine time to go and a bit more advantageous than peak November season as the daily tariff and hotel prices are slightly lower. Sounds like a plan to me! So...

Two initial things I'm trying to tackle at the onset of planning here:

1) How much can we/should we cover in the time we have allotted? I assume we want no more than 10-14 days in Bhutan. Anything else seems a bit overkill. I know we'll want to cover the basics in the west--Paro, Thimpu & Punakha--and also definitely a visit to the Haa Valley. But the question is about going East. A good friend who spends a lot of time there says the East is the highlight of a trip there and very few tourists take the time to see it. Less infrastructure, but more natural beauty. So we could look at the option of going East and exiting through Samdrup Jonghar and fly out of Assam back to Bangkok. Just not sure if that greatly extends the trip or not. Seems to me like getting out East could take quite awhile by car.

2) Where else can we go as a nice counterpoint on the way home? We'll have a good 5-7 days earmarked for a second destination for relaxation before coming back. On this last trip we spent 12 days in Japan and the last part in Ko Lipe, Thailand. It was a wonderful counterpoint. Just being able to park it in one place and relax. Only thing is it was a bit rustic and I probably would've preferred something a bit more luxe. The last 2 days in Bangkok at the Pen definitely fit the bill--so keep in mind that this destination doesn't necessarily have to be at the beach. The obvious choice is somewhere in Thailand again -- but we've been there so much I'm really hoping to find someplace a bit different. Really looking for a very nice resort to be able to park ourselves at and really enjoy the pampering. I've thought about Langkawi, but that's a bit too much like what we just did (and perhaps too close to where we just were). I also thought about the Philippine islands but wondered if getting to and from would be too much work, etc. Anyway, would love to get some recommendations.

So very excited to finally plan a trip to the magical kingdom I've so longed to go to for so very long!

Hope you all had a wonderful Holiday and New Year -- and happy travels, wherever they may have taken you!

Kathie

Ah, planning the next trip on your way home form the last one - that is our usual pattern. We are also having trouble figuring out where to go in November. Given our interests, Bhutan should call to us - but it doesn't. I hope you have a wonderful trip and come back and write about it for those of us who haven't been yet.

We have been to the area west of Bhutan, Sikkim (which we loved,) but haven't been to the east side. I did, however, do a lot of research on Assam. Exiting through either place will still involve a long road trip trip to get to an airport, then a flight to an international airport. You are likely better off flying out the way you came in. If you want the Assam info, I still have it and would be glad to provide it.

As for where else to go... so many options! As you know, we did a Pandaw cruise in Burma in November - fabulous - you and David would love it! Pandaw just purchased a private Greek Yacht which will ply the waters south of Burma with beach/diving stops. It isn't on the Pandaw site yet, as they are just doing a "soft opening" of that route, but you might keep your eyes open for it.

Happy planning!

filmwill

Thanks for your response, Kathie! There's precious little information on Bhutan here on Fodors, so it's refreshing to get some feedback on this.

LancasterLad

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowFor...38-Bhutan.html

Use the Top Questions tabs at the top right hand side. They contain lots of information you'd never think of asking about.

cmstraf

I have several thoughts about where to spend your end of the trip time:

1) Kathmandu and the Kathmandu Valley. Most of the monuments will be restored, the city coming alive, tourism still down, a wealth of both beauty and nature. Stay at Dwarika's--definitely worth the extra money and it will be less expensive low season (see my review on TripAdvisor), at least one night at their sister hotel in the hills Dwarika's resort. The contrast between Nepal and Bhutan is fascinating if saddening.

2) Luang Prabang in Laos

3) Bangkok itself, either at the Anatara Riverside or the Penninsula


Bhutan was magical, so much so that my trip report does not do it justice. If you are on Facebook, go to marcostraf. My husband's journal is both helpful and has many photographs.

I am at a conference in Austin. When I return, will try to find names of two places we shopped in Paro: a beautiful Buddha at a place owned by Ugyen on MainStreet, wonderful art at Buddhist Art Studio by the riverbank in Paro. Don't miss Ambient Cafe in Thimphu and Champaca Cafe in Paro.

We loved the Noble Traveller, also Champaca Journeys is excellent. Consider Bumthang as an alternative to the East. If you write John Leupold at his Champaca website or Dhamey Tensing at the Noble Traveller, they would have better advice.

We also thought that Punakha temples and general area were especially beautiful. I would recommend 2-3 nights not one. And don't miss the Zwiwa Ling hotel in Paro--worth the upgrade. The Tiger Nest hike is strenuous, but much easier than we expected. Trail is well-maintained, it's very much like hiking up out of Yosemite Valley.

karenclang

I've traveled to Bhutan several times (spring, summer, winter). The views of the mountains are spectacular in December and since there are fewer tourists, hotels, etc. are less crowded. As it is the off season the hefty tourist tariff is cheaper.

If you plan to travel east you'll need two weeks. I traveled for three weeks in Bhutan in December 2011--west to east (Haa to Trashigang) and then back to Paro. My friends found the long driving times on winding roads difficult to bear and would never do it again. If you are prone to car-sickness, take ginger pills/Dramamine). The road from Bumthang eastward is narrow, with steep drop offs on the side of road, and finding a spot to pull over for a bathroom break can be difficult. The drive from Bumthang to Mongar takes at least 8 hours. You may encounter frost/ice on roads (we did when we traveled in early and mid-Dec) and the driver will be going very slow. You'll also need to allow time for stoppages due to road maintenance.

Why go east in December? It's warmer, the scenery is different (more tropical), there are fewer tourists and the food is generally better (more spices, no bland buffets geared to cautious western tourists). If you're interested in textiles, the best weaving villages are in the east and you can buy direct from them (much cheaper than in the tourist shops in Thimphu). One of my friends bought a beautiful hand-woven kira (national dress for women).

The tourism council (http://www.tourism.gov.bt/) has brochures on western and eastern Bhutan that you can download. You should definately plan to taking a festival (Mongar, Trongsa in the east, or the Dochula festival near Thimphu--all described on the TCB website). We went to the Trongsa festival and thoroughly enjoyed it. The TCB also has a list of local tour operators--all of whom will work with you to make your trip memorable. You don't need to have the guide around all the time. You can wander around the cities on your own and chose your own restaurant. In the countryside I'd get up before breakfast for short walk on my own. You can't enter the dzongs without a guide though.

Travel agencies and guides will customize the trip to your desires--we asked for a guide knowlable about birding and visited local musicians in Thimphu. I've also visited schools and taken hikes to remote temples that even my guide had not visited before.

You can get an idea about hotels from this site: http://www.hotel.bt/ and if you'e interested in a homestay (I enjoyed it) see http://www.tourism.gov.bt/directory/homestay and http://haavalleyhomestay.com

Enjoy your trip!

filmwill

So I think we're finally making some traction here. Have reached out to about 5 travel companies and am narrowing those choices down to Blue Poppy (who have been the most responsive so far), Noble Traveler or possibly Norbu.

That said, I think we've slightly abandoned the idea of going East. The fact of the matter is we won't have enough time. Every tour operator universally seems to agree that we'd need a minimum of 16 days to do it -- and, even at that little, we'd be running from one place to the other. I do not want another running around with a bunch of 1 night stays kind of vacation like India was. Definitely going to try and take it much easier/slower on this trip.

The big question now becomes the order and amount of time in each place.

One itinerary suggestion that came through was like this:
DAY 1 Arrive Paro, car to Thimpu
DAY 2 Thimpu
DAY 3 Punahka
DAY 4 Bumthang
DAY 5 Bumthang
DAY 6 Bumthang
DAY 7 Gangtey
DAY 8 Gangtey
DAY 9 Paro
DAY 10 Paro
DAY 11 Haa Valley
DAY 12 Paro
DAY 13 Paro
DAY 14 Fly to Bangkok

A dear friend who knows the country well has suggested adjusting to something like the following instead:

DAY 1Paro
DEC 17 SAT Paro
DEC 18 SUN Haa
DEC 19 MON Thimpu
DEC 20 TUE Punakha
DEC 21 WED Bumthang
DEC 22 THU Bumthang
DEC 23 FRI Bumthang
DEC 24 SAT Gangtey
DEC 25 SUN Gangtey
DEC 26 MON Haa
DEC 27 TUE Paro
DEC 28 WED Paro
DEC 29 THU Fly to Bangkok


Curious to get the thoughts of others who have been that know best. Sounds like we'll be doing day hikes as opposed to treks, since the weather will be almost prohibitive for the latter in December.

filmwill

[Apologies for the last post: Ugh. I hate incomplete entries and premature posts]

Anyway--so I think we're finally making some traction here. Have reached out to about 5 travel companies and am narrowing those choices down to Blue Poppy (who have been the most responsive so far), Noble Traveler or possibly Norbu.

That said, I think we've slightly abandoned the idea of going East. The fact of the matter is we won't have enough time. Every tour operator universally seems to agree that we'd need a minimum of 16 days to do it -- and, even at that little, we'd be running from one place to the other. I do not want another running around with a bunch of 1 night stays kind of vacation like India was. Definitely going to try and take it much easier/slower on this trip.

The big question now becomes the order and amount of time in each place.

One itinerary suggestion that came through was like this:

DAY 1 Arrive Paro, drive to Thimphu
DAY 2 Thimphu
DAY 3 Punahka
DAY 4 Bumthang
DAY 5 Bumthang
DAY 6 Bumthang
DAY 7 Gangtey
DAY 8 Gangtey
DAY 9 Paro
DAY 10 Paro
DAY 11 Haa Valley
DAY 12 Paro
DAY 13 Paro
DAY 14 Fly to Bangkok

A dear friend who knows the country well has suggested adjusting to something like the following instead:

DAY 1 Arrive Paro
DAY 2 Paro
DAY 3 Haa Valley
DAY 4 Haa Valley
DAY 5 Thimphu
DAY 6 Punakha
DAY 7 Punakha
DAY 8 Bumthang
DAY 9 Bumthang
DAY 10 Bumthang
DAY 11 Gangtey
DAY 12 Gangtey
DAY 13 Paro
DAY 14 Fly to Bangkok

Obviously there's a lot more involved in each of these destinations, such as day hikes and sights. But the general POV here is either Thimphu isn't all that interesting (and Paro is much more) or the reverse. Also the question of how much time in Punakha or Haa Valley is an open question. I do sort of fancy the idea of getting off the beaten track a bit.

Curious to get the thoughts of others who have been that know best. Sounds like we'll be doing day hikes instead of treks, since the weather will be almost prohibitive for the latter in December. I also don't particularly mind--after a long, exhaustive climb--the idea of going back to a warm bed every night.

I can't imagine that either direction would be bad...it's really just getting a sense of where would be best for us.

Thanks in advance!

cmstraf

I would suggest that you spend two nights in Punakha and two in Bumthang, or at least two in Punakha. We were really sorry we had only one night there.
We thought architecture and quality of art was most beautiful in Punakha dzong, the temple of the Divine Madman shouldn't be missed, and also a monastery. We are hoping to go back in 2018 and plan to spend at least two nights in Punakha, maybe three.

I hesitate to add a suggestion, but have you thought about going to the Phojibka valley to see the Black Necked Cranes? They are quite incredible.

Noble Traveller's responses may be slower than usual right now, because the tour operators are traveling in the month of January. If you do end up going with them, see if you can get Lakey as a guide and Tandrin as a driver. The two of them won our heart and we were not even one time scared on the curvy roads or even nauseated. Lakey is gentle, very knowledgable, speaks flawless English and explained much of Buddhism by showing and explaining his own rituals of devotion. Tandrin is a knock out driver, speaks little English but if you ask the cultural guide to translate, he is a wonderful person to be around. A stocky cheerful Zorba the Greed type. They won our hearts. I cried when they left us at the airport, not usual me. It wasn't just leaving Bhutan, it was leaving hem. We have never had an experience like this.

hawaiiantraveler

If you need somewhere a little lux to chill for 4 to 5 nights this is the place.....

http://quncivillas.com/

Aloha!

Craig

Just saw this thread for the first time. I know you have read my trip report, but I'll chime in anyway. Hopefully you will plan your trip around a festival (or festivals) - your TA will be able to help you, although the schedule may be tentative at this point. Did you attempt to contact Kencho at Snow White Tours, by the way?

As for your itinerary, I suggest going from the airport in Paro directly to Bumthang when you arrive. While Bumthang is the most modern destination (and therefore the least interesting), it is a good starting point as it is the seat of the government and there are a couple of days worth of interesting museums and sites - you need 3 nights. From there it makes sense to head east. There's only one main road, so you are going to take the same route that every other tourist takes on their first trip, whether you like it or not.

That road goes to Punakha, which is worth a couple of nights as you have planned. Because of its lower altitude, it will be warmer there than elsewhere in Bhutan. From there is a long drive to the Bumthang Valley, where hopefully there will be a festival or two. If there are none, you may find it to be a pretty dull, but scenic area. We had 3 nights there and attended festivals on each of the 2 full days.

We saw black cranes in Gangtey, but there is also a monestary there, which we did not visit. It is a scenic area where we had a good hike. It is a convenient stop to break up the long drive to Paro. I would suggest just one night there, not two.

The reason to save Paro for the end is that if you plan to climb to the monastery, you will have acclimated to the altitude. The Haa Valley sounds interesting - I think we started down the road that goes there to visit the Kila Nunnery. Paro is worth 3 nights and 2 full days, but not much more. Perhaps add 2 nights for the Haa Valley.

As for another destination, check where you can fly to from Delhi or Bangkok as those are the 2 connecting points to Paro airport. We flew in from Delhi and out to Bangkok.

Good luck - I know you will make your Bhutan trip perfect for you. I'll check back occasionally to see if you have any questions.

Guenmai

As for Argentina and New Zealand, I've been to both. Have Kiwi friends and went to N.Z. twice and stayed on their huge farm on the South Island in Balclutha. I loved N.Z. I went twice and did both the south island (lots of it) and part of the north island. On the second trip over to N.Z., I also threw in Australia after having left N.Z. Oz was very fascinating.

As for Argentina, went in 2008, but only to Buenos Aires and also loved it. I'd love to go back to Argentina and travel extensively around it.

Haven't done Bhutan as I've put it off for more than decade and in reality, probably won't get there.

Happy Travels!

Smeagol

Ok speed reading this BUT we are thinking Bhutan. ( spooky or what???) Did you settle on Nov or December yet???? We are thinking mid- Nov....

Smeagol

Ok just re read and see its December

Craig

Nicky, not sure if Muffin is ready for Bhutan, but I'm sure you if you took the lux (Aman) route, it would be tolerable. Weather in November and December will be chilly - keep that in mind. Our hosts were firing up the wood stoves for us in some of the places when we went in late October/early November...

Smeagol

Thanks Craig, will bear that in mind... It was Muffin who mentioned it, but not sure I am ready for the Aman price tag!!!!

filmwill

Nicky, I don't think any of us are ready for that price tag. I knew they'd be expensive but my eyes almost rolled out of my head when I saw how expensive. Luckily, there's a ton of interesting other options that are much more reasonable. Let's email separately. Lots to fill you in on! Gotten a ton of info that I'm happy to share with you.

Craig, thanks for the tips. I'm assuming that was a typo and you meant to say go from Paro directly to Thimphu (not Bumthang)? I'm apprehensive about spending a lot of time in Thimphu, mostly because you're echoing everything else I've heard: that it's not really indicative of Bhutan at all and that it's kind of scrappy. That doesn't really interest me all that much.

Also, the way the agency laid the first itinerary out we'd be going back and forth the Paro twice (booking a trip through the Haa Valley) and the double-back didn't seem to make much sense to me at all.

I fully expect it to be cold, but, if this year is any indication, that might not be such a sure thing anymore. I think one of Pook's friends was there in December (while we were in BKK) and he was saying it was positively warm...in the 60s. Not sure if it's El Niño or global warming, but this year seemed to indicate that things are a changin'. Either way, we're prepared for (and welcome) the cold.

Craig

Yikes, yes I meant Thimphu not Bumthang - glad you caught that, Billy. Actually, being the seat of government in Bhutan, Thimphu is somewhat indicative of the country and you should really spend some time there, if you have any inclination of wanting to understand "Gross National Happiness" and how it affects Bhutan - you will pick up a perspective that you might not as you travel to the more rural areas. Weather anywhere is a crapshoot but it sounds like you are open-minded, so that's good. On either itinerary, the Haa Valley is backtracking - you can't avoid it as it is in the opposite direction from Paro than everywhere else. Suggest you save it and Paro for the end of your trip though.

Did you try contacting Snow White? - Kencho will get you the best rooms at the lower tier places you are leaning towards.

filmwill

Have contacted them and 3 others. Everyone's in the running right now until I get final bids.

cmstraf

I agree with Craig--save Paro and Tiger's Nest for the end of your trip. The Tiger's Nest hike is strenuous, but it is not difficult in the sense that the trail is very well-groomed and at the top where there could be scary places there are railings. It is much less difficult than it looks in pictures and there is a place to stop for lunch/tea on the way.

We went in on the Tiger Nest hike late November, got an early start and did not find it to be crowded at all. We spent our last two nights in Bhutan at the Ziwa Ling--very beautiful and characteristic,, only 5 star hotel in Bhutan run by and owned by Bhutanese. I think we paid about $200 a night for the upgrade, Definitely not in Aman category, less expensive and more characteristic than the Uma Paro, which looks beautiful but more generic and is not Bhutanese owned.

Our trip was from the 9th to the 24th of November, with a five day trek 2/3 of the way through. On the trek at 13,000 feet, it did indeed get cold (-10 degrees centigrade at night) but we had great sleeping bags and were fine until we had to dress in the morning. I think your idea of December is cool. (didn't mean the pun). You can dress in layers for the unpredictable weather in our current world and it will be low seasons--which could mean lower prices on some of the hotels you may want to upgrade to. (we paid a minimal fee to upgrade to Druk Hotel in Thimphu and were glad we had).

I think with the tour operator suggestions you've gotten, you can't go wrong. Are you traveling as a group or a couple? We (and I think also Craig and Jean) were very glad we did the latter as we got to know the staff much better than we would have in a group situation. but it is $60 per person more.