Curt1591

Although many may have had a few, I think a bigger factor is the number of tourists that think it cool to ride a scooter in Paradise, with little or no previous riding experience.

Prachuap

True.

khunwilko

Most of these comments seem to focus on the people only....i think the other factors are hugely important.

tinanow

Driving a motorbike in Northern Thailand has proven to be a better experience for me as compared to back home in San Diego. I also found a great blog that may help anyone with some tips from their experiences driving a motorbike in Thailand.

http://togetherinthailand.com/inside...thernthailand/

BangkokUnmasked

The problem is that you can be a great driver, and get involved in a terrible accident by the actions of someone who is not.

[In my opinion] Thailand's huge number of road traffic accidents are really down to two core issues:

1. There is no real enforcement of traffic laws.
2. Most Thai have never learned [like you do in the US] how to drive.

khunwilko

I think that you succumbing to perception over reality to some extent.

Let me address your 2 points in reverse order......

I'd suggest that by and large, Thai people are in reality, quite good drivers; they have learned to drive quit well in Thailand. Their innate abilities are no more or less than any other country. On top of this they are used to driving in the local road environment. E.g they aren't surprised by motorcycles coming towards them on the wrong side of the road or people coming onto the road from the left without looking. ( Thailand has a priority from the left rule).
All countries have idiot drivers about the same proportions and you will NEVER get rid of them....... Darwin or no Darwin.....road safety is about stopping the idiots from doing what they do best...Thailand fails to do this.
If you are in 4 wheeled vehicle your chances of dying are about the same as the USA. Motorcycles account for over 70% of all road deaths.
Enforcement is certainly lax. There are many reasons for this.....The most obviously that Thai police are simply not trained in road safety or road law enforcement so their efforts end up as an inconsistent mish-mash of ineffective exercises that bear no relationship to true road safety practices.
However to enforce road laws you need more than a trained enforcement arm....you need clear and concise laws that don't conflict, you need a separation of police and judiciary, you need to end corruption, and what is overlooked by many, you need properly constructed and designed roads that are clearly marked and meticulously maintained with clear signage.
At present Thailand has drifted so far from this it is hard to see how the situation can be rectified without a massive sea change and enormous expenditure.
Again much of this is perspective; e.g how we view are home county in comparison.....50 years ago the USA and some countries in Europe had similar death rates to Thailand and it has taken this long to get the figures (kind of) under control. BTW..... The US doesn't need to pat themselves on the back just yet, they lag well behind Europe in road safety....by factors 3 to 4 in general.

so I guess the thing is you can't really reduce the problem down to just 2 factors and even then those factors are a lot more complex than a cursory glance might suggest.

BangkokUnmasked

You lost me right there khunwilko. The Thai are TERRIBLE drivers. [I have lived in Thailand for 18 years, so have seen this with my own eyes].

If the Thai are so good at driving, explain why the country has the second highest road deaths in the world? You should also check out a Facebook page called "Bad driving in Thailand".

khunwilko

I think it has already been explained. - If the Thai are so good at driving, explain why the country has the second highest road deaths in the world?
You have fallen into the trap of perception over reality. "so have seen this with my own eyes"
You don't seem to understand the media either - I'm aware of that FB page.
" If the Thai are so good at driving, explain why the country has the second highest road deaths in the world?" Also, you seem to assume that there is only one statistic that gives an impression of driving in Thailand. Here it appears you are confusing association with causation

BangkokUnmasked

I think that what I see every day trumps all else. You're really reaching in your argument that the Thai are good drivers. There is zero evidence for this -- there is plenty of evidence to the contrary though!!!

Cyansiam

Thais are only good drivers by the fact that they get off their motorbike straight into a 4 x 4 and somehow manage to drive it, for that I take my hat off to them! Okay yes there is a driving test that is a joke, they do not have any driving lessons for car or bike. They have no spatial awareness, the main aim is to get where ever they are going in the fastest time possible without taking anyone else into account, Buddha protects!

The police are not interested in the road traffic laws, just how much money they can get, the only hope is that the younger ones coming through will be different...no longer is the blockbuster card going to pass for your driving licence, they can read it now!

Next issue is that many of the vehicles should not be on the road, the MOT is ridiculous unless you get a grumpy inspector.

The roads...we are currently experiencing the construction of a new underpass...traffic is horrendous, one lane each way, ambulances can queue for over an hour each way as there is no other way through, bikes have to risk the grass verges which have the electric cables hanging so low that someone will be decapitated at some point. No lighting at night so we have already had one car drive straight into the construction area and the metal support grids. Health and Safety at work in Thailand.

Last but not least....tourists on bikes....should be banned....most have never ridden a bike before and think that Mum, Dad and the two kids can jaunt round the island. They are provided with a helmet that will probably cause more damage than protect them. Others think just because they have a bike licence at home they know what they are doing...maybe they do...but the minivans, coaches, lorries and 4 x 4's driven by someone who cannot see over the steering wheel don't!

There have been 18 farang deaths this year so far ranging from 4 years old to 91 years old....that's ones that are known about and this is not just from road accidents although that accounts for the highest number of deaths followed by drowning.

khunwilko

I'm surprised youve found foreigner road death figures. I've been looking for about 10 years for reliable breakdown of road deaths. Unfortunately Thailand doesn't normally seem to gather full sets or even according to ininternational ccriteria...E.g. death, serious injury and minor injury.
Can you tell me where you got your numbers from? I'd be most interested to take a look.

khunwilko

put quite simply, there isn't evidence to support this, only perception I.e ".I think that what I see "..The evidence in reality suggests the opposite. Whereas human error contributes to crashes on a worldwide scale as the most common cause of a crash, it is pretty much constant ...this would suggest the the subsequent exorbitant height death rate.in Thailand...usually taken out of context.....needs to be accounted for by other factors.

Cyansiam

As said not just road deaths for that total and this site misses a lot of them, I could add another 10 road deaths that I know about plus other types. The guy who does this told me that sometimes he can not add details as he cannot confirm the info so the death will just be added to the total.

BTW not for the squeamish!
https://www.farang-deaths.com/

khunwilko

so bbasically this what the OP is about...perception versus reality.
Until this is overcome especially by those involved in formulating Thailand's road safety policies then it is hard to see how any real or permanent progress will be made.

I think from an outsiders point of view it is also useful to hear in mind that driving and road safety are not the same thing.

BangkokUnmasked

I don't follow what you mean by 'perception' vs. 'reality'. Reality can be seen in technicolor! The video below includes 13 clips which showcase dangerous Thai driving and discusses why driving in Thailand is so dangerous. If Thailand was safe to drive in, as you seem to imply, why do so many people die on the roads?


To add to the above, there has been more than one case of foreign bicycle riders who have [literally] cycled around the world, only to end up dead on Thai roads. This adds to the evidence that Thai roads are inherently unsafe!

khunwilko

Basically the way I understand it we are talking about critical thinking....scientific skeptically.
What the videos show is an example of confirmation bias and cherrypicking....
What needs to be done is a thorough analysis of the evidence....which means reliable stats. Road safety stats that are usually quoted are only partial citations of the originals.
...and you're right in that your example illustrates how many people have difficulty understanding the difference between perception and reality.
As has been said
"The plural of anecdote is not data."

jacketwatch

That person who biked all over the world could have been killed on any road anywhere. Being killed in Thailand as a single incident proves nothing. Got overall stats compared to other countries? That’s what you need.

jacketwatch

ROAD TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

Thailand is 14th worst according to this list.

khunwilko

The Stats on this site are from WHO.

The expression “worst” is a bit misleading there are many ways of looking at road safety statistics and the highest death rate per 100k is just one - it doesn’t mean we can translate directly into who or what is “safest” or “least safest”

There are other factors - the type of stats and of course the quality of stats........Unfortunately, Thailand doesn't have a complete or even centralised system for gathering data. They don't even manage to do it to internationally accepted criteria.

The figure that everyone uses is DEATHS per 100k of population.
but they ignore......

• Deaths per 100k vehicles (Thailand rates around 96th in this category!)
• Road fatalities per 1 billion vehicle/km (N/A!!)
• Numbers of vehicle owned
• Mileage and types of road (see 5 Es)
• Total deaths in a country. - very low populations skew figures

Statistics are usually divided into 3 types - fatal, serious injury and minor injury.
Thailand only does this at holiday times.

It seems there are no reliable sources or stats readily available for deaths of foreigners -

(I’m sorry but the website mentioned above should be taken with a large pinch of salt - it is unscientific and largely anecdotal, it relies on largely secondary and tertiary sources that may even be inaccurate.)

A few conclusions that can be drawn from the stats - such as they are - can put the situation into some kind of context.

One also needs to be aware that 80% of fatalities in Thailand are in the “vulnerable” category - this means pedestrians, cyclists and above all motorcyclists.

There is nothing to suggest that Thai people are in any way more stupid than Westerners.

It is also worth bearing in mind that both France and the USA had similar death rates to this in the early 1970s and they were largely involving 4 wheeled vehicles. So were the Americans and French all bad drivers ten? What has REALLY changed since then?

Currently, on deaths in 4 wheeled private vehicles, Thailand is comparable to the USA...Europe fares a lot better.

jacketwatch

I will say if you search for data on this issue you find a lot of variance though the commonality I’ve seen is that traffic accidents and deaths are highest in African countries. Having been to India 7 times I just can imagine driving there as it’s so different from rules of the road in the US. What goes into how people drive? I suppose it’s a lot of factors like insurance rates, driver education for new drivers, police presence, cultural practices like squeezing into the smallest possible space vs. staying in ones lane, effective repercussions for repeated driving offenses like lisence suspension and hefty fines and many more I am sure. Once I was in a taxi in India and the driver reared ended a car stopped at a red light. The drivers got out and yelled at each other,then the taxi driver gave the other driver some money and they drove off. I can’t imagine that here. Maybe that’s why in India you seldom see a car without a dent(s) or scratch(es),