Question about tipping
 

Some friends are planning a trip to China, including 2 weeks in Tibet. During their time in Tibet (no trekking, just sightseeing), they will have a guide with them.
Typically, how much should they tip their guide, and in what currency? Any other info re. tipping etiquette in China (they'll also be in Xian, with a guide for the Terra Cotta Warriors) would be appreciated.

his currency....a percentage of what he is being paid is what i usually do, if you know it....

i never tip in china.

There was a long post some time ago regarding tipping in China. The gyst is that you don't, unless you feel magnanimous. The information I got says that Chinese do not tip in China.

Chinese do not tip. Now I'm not sure if it would be considered rude if you offered a tip, but if you're feeling generous go ahead. But don't feel obligated to tip in China. My parents are from there and I have to routinely tell them that in America we tip!

I'm probably going to open a can of worms here but I can't imagine NOT tipping, especially a guide they will have for several weeks! While tipping may not be the norm in China and you may not wish to tip bellboys and waiters, a guide is somewhat different. When we were in China, we had the same guide for two weeks and all of us on our tour tipped her. I can tell you that she was NOT insulted and was very grateful.

Typically guides in Asia (except for Japan) are not well paid and are dependent on tips for the main bulk of their income

I can't vouch for this, but a China expert on another site has the view that most guides in China actually do very well, mainly from kickbacks paid by the shops and restaurants they take you to.

A general point: in the United States certain workers are paid very poorly in the expectation that most of their money will come from tips. In most other countries that's not the case, and accordingly tipping will be low to non-existent. This includes western countries such as my own. It makes no more sense to tip a waiter or guide in Australia than to tip a shop assistant or a railway ticket-seller - all are paid a living wage.

My only experience of a guided tour in China was a one-day trip to the Great Wall and Ming Tombs, including several stops at kickback-paying places. The punters on that trip were a mix of Chinese (the majority), Japanese, Thai, German and Australian tourists. Needless to say, the Chinese didn't tip, so of course nobody else did. Other than group tours of westerners this must have been fairly typical of a Chinese tour -after all, the great majority of tourists in China are Chinese seeing their own country. Our guide looked like a pretty prosperous young lady to me.

I've heard it said that to the Chinese, tipping is a sign of derangement - why would anyone give away free money? As in all commercial affairs you're quoted or negotiate a price, and it makes no sense to voluntarily offer more. I don't see why foreigners should insist on introducing their own norms.

Of course a guide or bellboy will be grateful if someone presses money into their hand, but I'm not sure that this is to the point.

The "China expert on another site" is just plain wrong about foreigners tipping tour guides. The guides earn very little from their companies, work long hours, and should be thanked financially if service was good. This is especially true for a group, but if you are with an individual and a driver all day you should reward them. While a lot of Europeans do not tip, guides there expect tips too, don't they? IMHO.

kudzu, the person I referred to has lengthy experience of China, is a Chinese speaker, contributes to China guidebooks and chairs a forum on China travel. He can also be a pain in the arse - but he's forgotten more about China than I (and possibly you) know.

Anyway, I deferred to him in respect of Chinese, not foreigners, tipping tour guides, and he's correct: the Chinese do NOT tip tour guides (or anyone else); almost all tour patrons are Chinese, not foreign; ergo, income from tips is close to non-existent; ergo (given that it's a popular job) tour guides must have access to a good steady income from other sources, which means kickbacks.

I'm more than happy for you to dispute this conclusion by reference to verifiable facts rather than assumptions based on American (or for that matter European) experience, though.

I wouldn't know about European tour guides, as I've never used them and don't expect to, but I would think that if they depend for the food on their tables on anyone but Americans tipping them, they'd be an emaciated race. To repeat - the reason Americans tip and others tend not to is conditioning, based on uniquely American remuneration practices which have no relevance to other countries.

Neil - My parents use European tour operators quite frequently, and they certainly have "suggested" tipping rate for the guide/driver. These are tours that cater to people from around the world, and have a pretty high percentage of Australians, as they use the English language.

As for China, I agree with you. That's no tipping required. But not that you can't tip, if you have an extraordinary guide. I know Chinese guides will appreciate it, though Tibetians may not. [I don't know if the OP's guide in Tibet will be a Tibetian or Chinese.] Another situation is that you may want to tip the guide ahead and make him/her agree to cut out the "shopping stops" and concentrate on the attraction sites instead.

Hi, Neil,

I know exactly who this "pain in the arse" is and he is correct about Chinese not tipping in their country. I did not mean to quibble with that. However, this board is meant mostly for non-Chinese/English speakers to learn about Asia, and it certainly is the norm for foreigners to tip their guide and driver.

Also from what this person has written, he doesn't believe in tipping anywhere. I've seen a post where he excoriates the tipping of wait staff in Western restaurants in North America. He seems to want to single-handedly force all restaurateurs to pay a decent wage to eliminate tipping. Yeah, and that's going to happen. The same with Chinese tour guides who deal with English speaking groups. People not tipping will not result in guides being paid more by their company. And why should tour guides not make money, which this person criticizes them for? They have college educations and certifications in English, must take rigorous exams every year to renew their licences, both in "guide" content and in guide regulations, and work probably 14 hours a day 7 days a week from May through October. During the winter they get practically nothing so must make money during the season to tide them over. It's like construction workers who some think are very overpaid. But they must make money literally while the sun shines. To me, it's meanspirited to begrudge someone from making as much money as they can with the skills they must spend a lot of time preparing for.

This person does know a lot about China but his being fluent and knowing so much sometimes makes his advice less than usable for those who are new to Asia and who are non-backpackers. I have a copy of one of his books and there are many errors in it, which he likely would blame on the editor as he sometimes does. (Editors are all bad.)

Thanks for letting me clarify and expand!
K.

When you visit a foreign country you should follow the local customs.

Tipping in countries and/or for services where tipping is not a part of the local compensation should not be done.

Although you may feel that you want to do it and can afford it, the impact is a negative that literally changes the local economy.

No, tipping where tipping is not done will not stop the earth from spinning or cause gravity to lose its hold, but in country after country the impact of foreigners and visitors tipping has hastened changes that really are not in anyones best interest.

Sooooo.....if the locals don't tip for a service neither should you.

Afterall, you wouldn't tip the clerk at your local convenience store...tipping a cab driver/tour guide/bellman/masseuse/etc. in a country where tipping is not the local custom is the same thing as tipping the clerk at the local 7-11 in the US. (It's just not done as the wages for the job are base on it being a non-tipped position).

Now I realize that some of you generous souls are sitting their shaking your heads at this post. I am not a cheap person, I just don't believe that as tourist and travellers that we should "buck" the local system and standards.

And for goodness sake if you "must" tip regardless of the local norm please at least do it with the local currency and not with your foreign currency.

kudzu, I think your motives are generous, but I agree with cjbryant, who's put my points much better than I can.

My position is strictly "when in Rome". When we revisit the US this year we'll follow local custom and tip, as we did last time - I may not like the system, but who am I to tell Americans how they should run things?

I would just hope that Americans visiting my country will do us the same courtesy and (generally) refrain from tipping. Why? Because to me and many other Australians, the idea that some (and only some) workers should have to figuratively scramble for coins thrown at their feet runs counter to a widely-held view that, like other workers, they're entitled to the dignity afforded by a living wage. I don't want foreign visitors, however unwittingly, however motivated by generosity, doing their little bit to undermine what I think is a worthy egalitarian ideal.

I'm using this local example only to make the point that imposing our idea of what's a fair thing on a very different culture isn't necessarily a harmless exercise.

As far as China is concerned, I have to return to the point that the vast majority of tour customers in China are Chinese, who by definition don't tip. Most of the remainder are other Asians, Europeans, Australians and Kiwis; and a very small minority are North American. Only the last-named will feel any urge to tip, and that's only because of a lifetime of conditioning in their home country.

Having lived in China for just a year my husband and I had many occasions where our Canadian ideal of tipping was tested. We felt the urge to tip at times when perhaps our waitress was extra attentive etc. However giving into this temptation often brought looks of total embarassment, shame and loss of face on the part of the waitress. We learned quickly that it just isn't done. Our money was usually quickly returned to our hands.
When we ventured out of our city to travel and used a guide we often had some Chinese students with us. When we talked about tipping to our students and discussed amounts for the guide the students told us that the wages of the guide and driver were comparable to that of most workers in China and perhaps sometimes better as they received extra commissions for using certain restaurants, taking us to certain shops etc. In the end we tipped only in special circumstances when we had developed a special relationship with the guide and driver and in other times walked off the tour with a handshake and a smile. Of course the Chinese students never! tipped.
I have to agree with Neil and cjbryant and do as the Romans do.
Kutzu, I agree that the wages of Chinese guides and drivers etc are low and they work long hours, but relatively speaking they make an average wage and work no more than most Chinese who usually spend 12 - 14 hours a day at work. Their 800 - 1000 RMB per month is the norm for most outside the bigger cities. This wage we noted was the norm for wait staff, factory workers, some office workers, etc. Outside the larger areas they can and do live on this.
These are insights into Chinese life that we were priveleged to learn and reflect our experiences in Xiamen and while travelling the country hiring local guides and not on Western tours.

Thanks to the last few posters for your points of view. I understand and agree in general where you are coming from, but believe me, the situation for guides in the major cities who lead foreign tour groups is unique and they don't even earn the 800-1,000 mentioned as an average for workers outside the big cities. I must agree that it is unfortunate, but guides of the big tour agencies earn virtually nothing besides tips. This has been a good discussion, and thank you.

K