Povery in India beyond words
 

I just returned from my first trip to a third world nation. (India). This trip will change me as a person and has changed my view of life just for the sake of living. Most people in India are not living they are just exisiting (barely). <BR> <BR>What an experience. Before the trip I thought poverty was found in America, we do not know poverty like India! In one city we visited almost half the people lived on the street and people that had housing lacked running water, electricty, phone, etc and lived 20 people to a room. Poverty was incredibly ugly. People had no reason to get up each day other than try to survive. It is not the same as reading about it in a book, or seeing it on TV. After two days of being sourounded by 100s of beggers everytime we left our hotel, I could not take it. I could not leave the hotel and waited in my comfortable room for the trip to finish. God bless (living in) America! <BR> <BR>To other Fodorites, why would someone from the first world want to visit a place that has so much poverty and the people so miserable?

You said it changes you as a person. I think many people travel to enhance there perspective of the world, perhaps now you will be more sensitive to the have nots. I would want to go to see beyond the poverty if I could master this. There are people there who make it beyond the poverty (emotionally) and I suggest a closer look would be rewarding. Always good to see the opposite side of the dark side. Music from Germany, art from Japan (I think of the treatment of Women being abhorrent), perhaps spiritual wealth in India? Sorry this experience was so devastating it would be interesting to speak with you in a year. One of my most devastating trips was to Egypt for similar reasons. I complained for months to friends, offending some, now I look back and am thankful I had the glimpse.

I hope your unpleasant experience doesn't stop you from going visiting other third world countries. China, for instance, is still considered a third world country based on per capita income but most American visitors enjoyed their visit and found the country very fascinating. A quarter century ago, China was even poorer than India. Things do change. <BR> <BR>India is a big mystery to me as well. Some other countries such as Nepal, or even Cambodia, are poorer than India but one doesn't feel the same kind of depression as that in India. <BR> <BR>The world is a big book. Third world countries make most chapters of the book, and most of those chapters are not only interesting, educational, in many cases, rather inspiring as well. <BR> <BR>

I am not sure about that Kange. I think the human rights abuses in China are just to overwhelming I can't imagine supporting that country with my tourist dollars. The Americans you speak of just don't have any sense of social responsibility.

I have grown up in several third world countries where we got approached by entourage of people asking for money wherever we went. My prospect in life in USA is much different from my collegues of similar income because of this. <BR> <BR>Whether how takes advantage of third world experience is up to individual. I think it had a positive influence in my outlooks. <BR> <BR>I noticed that when my collegues of similar income talk to each other, the topic, if not sports, are cars (neighbor so and so bought so and so expensive car and how nice they are,) houses, entertainment center (my neighbor just got $20,000 home theatre installed and how much nice than my $5000 system,) and so forth and so on and how unhappy that they do not have these things. Having seen how majority of people elsewhere survived, I do not feel any urge to keep up with these materialistic competitions, if you will. <BR> <BR>Instead we only buy what is necessary, independent of what neighbors get. And spend money and time helping other disadvantaged people. I felt I get more longer lasting satisfaction helping people, rather than buying things which would get me depressed as soon as someonelse buys better things. In process, we were able to save money for other purposes. <BR>

I visit China once every 2 to 3 years. I was always stunned by the incredible progress, both economically and socially, over the period since my prior visit. <BR> <BR>Many Chinese believe that the 21st century will be "the Chinese century". I don't know if that will be true but I do believe that China and the United States will be top two economic power houses and the most important countries in this new century, therefore the two countries and the two peoples must try hard to understand each other better. <BR> <BR>Living years in both countries, I have to say that comparing to Americans, Chinese have much better knowledge about America, her culture, her people, and her political structure. Unfortunately, many Americans simply refuse to look a little bit deeper into what is really going on in China and stick with the stereotype that is at least 10 years out of date. <BR> <BR>I don't think this thread is an appropriate place for this kind of political discussion. <BR> <BR>The world is a big book. To benefit the most from this book, the number one rule to follow is to keep an open mind. Peace. <BR> <BR>

Greg where do you live that people are so shallow?LOL. I don't know anyone competing in this capacity and I have lived in U.S for 40 years. She is talking about starving people and how this upset her not about keeping up with the latest electronics the neighbors have. Yikes I don't even know people that talk to their neighbors let alone compete with them. LOL I have a large family and noone lives like this LOL again. Something tells me that you don't live like this either and that this is a response at Dorthea's lack of sensativity, I agree she could have been more careful about how she expressed her distress but be direct Greg and tell her. Perhaps we can help her to see that doing something to help a disadvantaged person is much more positive than proclaiming so glad I don't live there.

Cindy, there are terrible human rights abuses in this country. Why are you chastising China when America has a long way to go to attain equal rights for all its citizens? If you think women, gays, blacks, latinos, and other ethnic minorities are as equal as the Christian white man in America, then you are as ignorant as Dorthea.

Dorthea, <BR>I agree that there is a lot of poverty in India. But I also know that there is much more to India than that. I am an Indian living in US & I definitely see the difference in lifestyles. <BR>Also you have sen just a part of India. There are millions of Indians, with huge homes, plenty of servants, cars, and all the other comforts that one can want. Staying in your room out of depression may have blinded you to this side of India. <BR>I feel so glad that I come from India, simply because I see so many Americans fussing over lil difficulties, like they are the end of the world. You tend to take all your comforts for granted. <BR>Perhaps the trip to India should teach you how fortunate you are to have what you have here. <BR>And inspite of everything I have here, I miss home terribly. I miss knowing my neighbors, miss my parents, my family, the culture, the respect for elders, the food... just about everything. <BR>Also, may I ask which city you visited? <BR>

<BR>Arti: If both you and Dorthea's descriptions are accurate: <BR> <BR>"There are millions of Indians, with huge homes, plenty of servants, cars, and all the other comforts that one can want." <BR> <BR>Vs. <BR> <BR>"In one city we visited almost half the people lived on the street and people that had housing lacked running water, electricty, phone, etc and lived 20 people to a room." <BR> <BR>What kind of society is this?

I visited Bombay India. I can still smell it.

It is obvious by Dorthea's response that she is a troll. Pay her no heed. Anyone who would dismiss the beauty of India by a smell is a troglodite. There are hundreds of American cities that smell badly--including sections of the nation's capitol. Have you ever driven through sections of SW DC, Dorthea? It looks like Afghanistan.

<BR>Mr. MrHerbertPocket: <BR> <BR>I am very curious about your experience of driving through Afghanistan. You much have done it otherwise you wouldn't have made such a terrible comparison. Please tell us more. <BR> <BR>For Arti: I am more interested in knowing how those "plenty of servants"s life look like. I guess you must come from one of those rich families in India. Is that really something to be so proud of?

Don, never underestimate me. I have climbed Mount Everest, or as we say, Sagarmatha. Yes, I have been to Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, China, Tibet, Laos, Cambodia, and Burma. Anyone who says that one should not travel to Bombay because it smells should visit Colonial Williamsburg--where they belong.

Stay in your crystal castle, fairy princess; <BR>The world outside's a dirty one; <BR>Dirty, and poor, and not so nice- <BR>Stay in your own little world, fairy princess; <BR>So what if it's only half the truth. <BR> <BR>And, Don: What sort of society is this? Well, apparently in many ways similar to places where millionaires can own private jets and go holidaying in Monte Carlo and Switzerland, while homeless people sleep in the subway... <BR>Wake up, there are haves and have nots the world over. Perhaps what really matters is that those who `have' should be sensitive to the needs of those who don't- and be grateful for what they do have. And travel's all about broadening horizons, isn't it? <BR>

Stay in your crystal castle, fairy princess; <BR>The world outside's a dirty one; <BR>Dirty, and poor, and not so nice- <BR>Stay in your own little world, fairy princess; <BR>So what if it's only half the truth. <BR> <BR>And, Don: What sort of society is this? Well, apparently in many ways similar to places where millionaires can own private jets and go holidaying in Monte Carlo and Switzerland, while homeless people sleep in the subway... <BR>Wake up, there are haves and have nots the world over. Perhaps what really matters is that those who `have' should be sensitive to the needs of those who don't- and be grateful for what they do have. And travel's all about broadening horizons, isn't it? <BR>

Dorthea, <BR> <BR>I've never heard more shallow comments on a Fodors column than that of yours. WHY DID YOU GO TO INDIA IN THE FIRST PLACE, IF ALL YOU WERE GOING TO DO WAS SIT IN YOUR COMFORTABLE HOTEL ROOM? <BR> <BR>YES, there is poverty beyond belief in India but don't judge the ENTIRE country based on this because there's also more good things than you can count. India is one of the richest countries in the world due to the wonderful culture, friendly & forgiving people(especially to rude foreigners like you). India is a country with traditions, values, & respect. Respect for travellers like you who come to the country only to look down upon the poverty, the people & the country. <BR> <BR>India & other third world countries are too sophisticated for your poor tastes. <BR>And NO I'm not an Indian & neither have I ever travelled to India. But I just can't stand ignorant people such as you, who can only discourage others to travel to a certain place. In my opinion, India is a heaven on Earth. <BR>

To the last poster: How do you know India is so great if you have never visited there? Dorthea saw India, which means something.

Kim, <BR> <BR>I've done extensive research on India & have studied its culture. I also have friends who visited the country & although they saw the poverty, they also managed to open their eyes to the beauty of India. <BR> <BR>I don't claim to be some expert Kim, but when a person ventures to a different country, the least they can do, is research the place & once Dorothy arrived to India, rather than complaining & sitting in her hotel room, she should have opened her mind & experienced the place, even if that part of the world was different than what she was used to. If Dorthea can't handle seeing the good and the bad sides of the world outside the comforts of her own country & home, she shouldn't try & become an adventerous traveller next time.

<BR>Jane: I agree with your view regarding traveling in third world countries. From Dorthea's comments, I don't think she is really interested in India's rich history, culture, religion and in general the society. So she probably shouldn't be going there in the first place. <BR> <BR>Based on my own experience, however, I do understand what she said "I could not take it. I could not leave the hotel and waited in my comfortable room for the trip to finish." Quite a few people in my group felt the same way; for them, it was not any lack of concerns for the unfortunates, it was just too much to handle by just thinking about the scene outside the hotels. <BR> <BR>I have traveled a few third world countries. When I finished my visit to India, flankly, I felt depressed and I couldn't see much hope for a brighter future. India is a very interesting place with lots of resources and problems, but the lack of will/motivation among so many people to improve their life, the environment, and the country, in my view, is what makes visitors feel discouraged. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

No Don, I am not one of the people who come from rich families, who have servants to fulfil my ever wish. To the contrary, my mother is a doctor and my dad is a Bank Manager. We are middle class people, with a simple home & simple needs. <BR>As for the life of the servants, it's no worse & no better than the lives of the homeless and poor in any other country in the world, including the USA. <BR>Dorothea, in your entire visit to Bombay/Mumbai, if all you can remember is the smell, then I feel sorry for you. I guess you should stick to travelling within the USA - and that too, to only the places where you won't see poor/homeless and stinking people/places.

Don, <BR> <BR>Why just point at India's people who seem to lack a will to improve their lives? Why not also point out the people on welfare in America who don't have the will to improve their lives? <BR> <BR>Until one has walked in the shoes of another person's life, I don't think one really has the right to comment on who does or who does not have the will to improve their life. <BR> <BR>Poverty in India is not based on the will of India's poor, but rather due to cirsumstances & political issues within the country. <BR> <BR>Yes, India has its big share of problems, just as any other country does, but please, let's not bias the future traveller, who's looking to enrich their life with India's beauty. Afterall, this is a travel column, not a social & political view column. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Great to hear something positive from Arti and friends. As one who has been to 9 different regions of India on 5 trips in the last two years, I am certain there is hope and a future for this country of contrasts. My recommendation to any traveller new to any country: introduce yourself to a young adult, buy them a coffee, and listen to their stories. And above all else, don't judge India by what you see in Mumbai! Comfortable hotels and packaged tours are fine for a start, but you have to get under the veneer to find out what really is going on!

Okay, here's my view. I am an Indian and lived there all my life, until I moved to Hong Kong 6 years ago. I think the way to think of India is - extremely DIVERSE. More than 20 states, each like a country in terms of language, food, culture, rituals, even the way people dress and look. Poverty, yes, illetracy,yes but did you also know that a very large percentage of all the world's software is now written in India? Did you know that the Nawab (King)of Hyderabad had so many jewels that he had to air them once in while on the roof of his palace? I'm not saying good or bad, I'm saying diverse. The brits came to India when it was an agglomeration of several princely states and stayed for 500 years. When they left , just over 50 years ago, India became the world's largest democracy. It is working hard to slowly narrow the gap between the haves and the have-nots, and the other remenants of its past legacy, but it will take time. When we lived there, did we have a helper - sure and she probably lived in a small shack. But there is nothing I could do about it, not in a big way anyway. I remember helping her with her kids schooling and that my mom used to teach one of the help's kids in the evening. But these big problems will take time to solve. Other than that, if you travel there, know before-hand about what you wnat to do. If its luxurious hotels and relaxed atmosphere, great food and shopping, experiencing the culture and meeting westernised people - there are plenty of places you can find these- but Mumbai is probably not one of them. The Rajvilas at Jaipur is. So, do your research well and enjoy. <BR> <BR>And Dorthea - get your facts straight before you make statements like - 'Most people in India are not living but barely existing'. The poverty level is below 30% which I assume you understand means that 70% are not poor.

I'm not sure why some people, including Deepa, gave the impression that Mumbai(formerly Bombay) cannot offer luxury. <BR> <BR>Deepa, agreed, The Rajvilas Hotel, in Jaipur is top class but why rule out Mumbai in saying it's not for people looking for luxury hotels, good food, shopping, & western culture. <BR> <BR>Don't forget that some of the top notch hotels are in Mumbai, including, but not not limited to The Taj Mahal, The Oberoi & The Leela, not to mention, many, many others. Aside from staying at these luxury hotels, one can get a chauffer driven Mercedes, ride around a westernized beyond belief city, dine at gourmet restaurants, shop till you drop or till your credit card is maxed out at designer shops, rub shoulders with the rich & dance away the night, sipping the choicest of cocktails, at the most exclusive discos & bars. <BR> <BR>All this & more in Mumbai(assuming one can dish out the bucks). <BR> <BR>

<BR>I don't think most people who come a long way to India from America or Europe are looking for or even interested in things like luxury hotels, chauffer driven Mercedes, westernized beyond belief cities, etc. They come to the country to see a different culture, and more importantly, to see the daily life of the ORDINARY folks. It is exactly in that account that India fails to impress its visitors, not because of poverty, but because of the general picture of the society. <BR> <BR>I know that my 10 days stay wasn't nearly enough to get into anything more than just a quick glimpse of the society. But still, what I experienced in India, comparing to other third world countries I'd visited, was quite discouraging.

Don, <BR> <BR>What part of your trip to India discouraged you so much & how can you judge the entire country in 10 days? Also, where do you get the impression that most visitors are discouraged when they come to India as you were? I hear from so many people that they loved every minute while in India. I also read on chat rooms, travel forums the same that their experiences in India were great. <BR> <BR>I never once said in my last column above that people only go to India for its luxury hotels, gourmet cuisines & its "beyond belief western culture" in certain cities. I merely said that the above can also be found in India, just as you can find India's traditional culture & a look into the daily life or "ORDINARY" Folks as you put it. Tell me Don, is there something wrong if there's a balance of the above to be found in India? <BR> <BR>FYI, there are people who do go to India to enjoy its luxury hotels & gourmet cuisines - I am one of those people. But I also go to India to enjoy its culture & "ordinary" life as I lived that ordinary life for 20 years while I was there. <BR> <BR>Don, please don't be quick to judge what others want or do not want & if their experience in India was discouraging. India can offer something different, good or bad, to every visitor - it all depends on what you want to get out of your experience while there. <BR> <BR>You obviously chose not to enjoy any part of your trip to India, which of course is your perrogative, but I truly feel you missed & judged India too quickly in a mere 10 days. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Ritika, Your point is well taken in terms of Mumbai being able to offer luxury. However, that sort of holiday (assuming that is what a person was looking for) is not easy to find there unless you live there or are with someone who knows it well. Mumbai is not a walking city in that you could just walk out of the Oberoi (one of my favourite hotels for business visits)and enjoy the city (in a luxurious way), if you were a tourist. Other cities like Delhi you could and you certainly could in resort type places like the Rajvilas or the Lake Palace hotel. <BR> <BR>For me, Mumbai is more a place for productive business visits (since it is the financial capital of the country) but not for experiencing the real India,whether for a luxury vaction or one into rural India or for enjoying India's natural beauty.

<BR>Ritika <BR> <BR>To the contrary of your assertion, I enjoyed many parts of my trip to India. I experienced a very unique culture, and a very colorful life style. I didn't know much about India's rich history prior to my visit and learned a lot during my short stay. I don't pratice any religion but I found hinduism very interesting. I was amazed by the chaotic scene in Varanasi but I truly admired people's devotion to their beliefs. Needless to say, of course, I was very impressed by the beauty of the Taj Mahal, the uitimate symbol of love. <BR> <BR>But I was discuraged, only modestly by the difficulties related to poverty, but by a general feeling of a gloomy future of the country and its people. <BR> <BR>At the airport before we headed home, a fellow traveller asked me if I would come back to India, I told him that I don't know, but it won't be on the top of my list. And he said that he would probably come again but it would be for other parts of the country. "It would be interesting to see how everything goes in 10 years in those places we have been", he said, "but I do think there would be much change at all". <BR> <BR>That was the general feeling among us.

Having been to New Delhi and Bangalore on several occassions, I would say the caste system in India is the root of most of the problems for the poor. They are destined to live their lives as beggars as these 'low class citizens' will never get help from the rich and often sneered and despised. There is no opportunity for education and inter-marriages among theses classes is strictly no-no. The disparity between the rich and the poor is just too great to imagine!<BR>I always felt we need to be thankful of what we have. Whatever unhappiness that we have is nothing compared to what these folks in India are experiencing.<BR>Once I was in the taxi and an old man with a makeshift wooden trolley came by and using his stubs-he had no fingers, knocking on the window asking for money. Such is life...

Yes the caste system is ugly, and a big irony of the so called "largest democracy". However, the number one problem, in my opinion, is the population explosion. It is getting worse and seems no one can do anything about it.<BR><BR>Again, I am glad I went to India for a unique experience, but I don't have much hope for the future of that country and the situation for the poor will get worse before it gets better, if ever that happens.

There are many things in India that can be changed, as there can be many things changed in other countries that are not good either. But for those of you who are judging India just based on poverty, misjudging it too quickly.<BR><BR>Regarding the caste sytems, yes it exists but more & more people are trying to eliminate that each day.<BR>To make a point on that same note, you can find a differentiation in people's minds in the US also. It's called the homeless. People walking out of their work, homes, cars, also pass by homeless people & see them in a different so please don't go on & on about the caste system.<BR><BR>Let's stop this thread. It's going no where except arguing opinions...<BR>