"Generous tourists also help lift people out of poverty"

This is a myth. Taxi drivers and tour guides in China are not IN poverty.

kja is largely correct. However, I would say that the Chinese had already destroyed most of their cultural heritage during the Cultural Revolution, and are busy destroying most of the rest in the name of tourism. If you want some authentic Chinese culture you would be more likely to find it on Taiwan. This is certainly the case with temples.

"If you want some authentic Chinese culture you would be more likely to find it on Taiwan. This is certainly the case with temples"

That could well be true, thursdaysd, and very sad. I was fortunate, in 2010, to visit a number of temples that I think still had some authenticity -- but then, I went well off the beaten Western track to see some of these places. I visited Nanchan Si and Foguang Si, which I believe are the oldest wooden temples in China; I visited Tai Shan and Wutai Shan, with their very old and much revered temples; I saw ancient temples in Taiyuan and Datong, not to mention the awesome Buddhist caves of Luoyang and Datong. And there were temples in Chengde and the outskirts of Xi'an, and burial sites at the Eastern Qing Tombs, that hadn't yet been "Qing-ed."

And in Beijing, Fayuan seemed to have retained much of its authenticity.

But I could be wrong about any/all of the places, and their status could easily have changed.

I sincerely hope that some of these places are still accessible and still as true to their origins as possible. Maybe I shouldn't mention them -- I don't want to let any of these cats out of the proverbial bag! They are each far enough from the beaten trail that I think there might be some slight hope for them. But maybe not: Qufu was already being "Disney-fied" when I was there, and it isn't exactly making top-10 lists for China! :-(

> For a 1 day tour I dont think people care that much if they pay a few dollars extra.

Everyone cares. Nobody wants to pay more for anything than they have to, especially when others are paying less. And that's why after the event, discovering they've paid more than they needed to, they argue so passionately that it doesn't matter.

> While its good to bargain stressing over a few dollars after already paying a 1000 bucks on flights isnt that big a deal.

This is a version of the tu quoque fallacy. The value of each payment and its fairness is entirely independent of the other. And you can be quite sure that no one chose to pay $1200 when $1000 tickets were available. They didn't want to pay more than necessary for their airfares, and they don't want to pay too much for any other element in their trips, either.

> Over on LP backpackers brag about saving 5 dollars like its some great achievement.

And this is germane to the argument how, except perhaps to point out that no one likes paying $10 when they might have paid $5?

> Who cares what others pay?

Everybody. All the time. Except, mysteriously, after the event when having paid too much while travelling, when they'd rather trot out every fallacy conceivable rather then face up to their own chagrin.

But in fact our very concept of a fair price is based in part on paying no more than anyone else does. And when we find that we paid $6.99 but someone else paid $4.99 we resolve to shop elsewhere next time, or if we bought at the same place as someone else we ask what's going on.

And there are no occasions when we pay $99 dollars for a DVD player to find our neighbour paid $79 and we say, 'That's OK. I hope the salesman had a nice lunch with the extra money.'

> People on 2 week trips dont stress over a few bucks and 40 dollars isnt much in the west.

People on two-week trips don't suddenly start wanting to pay more than they have to, or more than anyone else, whether it's 40 cents or $40. They feel exactly the same about prices as they do at home. They want to pay the 'right' price. And, of course, we're not in the West, but in China.

> If a tourist pays a bit extra that driver might be able to buy his family a decent meal or a few.

Possibly the most patronizing comment ever posted on these pages, and to disguise overpayment as charity is a quite astonishingly feeble argument. The motives for charity are entirely different, and China's taxi drivers are not among its needy. The most common result of overpayment is a reinforcement of the contempt already felt by the recipient for the ignorance of foreigners, expressed by attempting to whoppingly overcharge in the first place.

> If you want to bus it or bargain hard you can do it. If others are happy to pay a generous price so be it. They just made a hard worker happy for a day!

And it's the standard fallacy of assuming in premises that which is wished to be found in conclusions, namely that getting to pay a reasonable price is more hard work than it's worth. And the use of the word 'generous' to describe being involuntarily being overcharged suggests that a career in public relations beckons.

Those arriving in an unfamiliar country, especially if they've failed to carry out reasonable research, know that there are all sorts of traps laid for them. This is true to a certain extent even in developed nations, beginning with appalling exchange rates at airports, to assorted shenanigans with airport taxis. But it's the norm in less-developed ones, and it needs to be recognized that there's some learning from experience. Later in a trip it is common to feel mild chagrin at having been overcharged at the beginning of it, and this is usually accompanied by a willingness to take any opportunity that comes up to inform new arrivals of the pitfalls ahead and how to avoid them.

What is one to say about people who, having been informed of the alternatives, still insist to others that being overcharged is fine?

There's nothing right about allowing oneself to be overcharged for travel at any level. *Consciously* opting to pay a *fair price* for a more luxurious method of travel, *once all the options are known* is quite a different matter.

Phew.....my head is starting to hurt! :-)

@ aussiedreamer -- so, what can we do to relieve your headache and help you move forward with your plans?

You said you want some photo ops in Beijing -- the Temple of Heaven, Forbidden Palace, Summer Palace, Fayuan, Ox Street Mosque, and Lama Temple jump immediately to my mind as places that offer some great photo ops. You have MANY options!

;-) thanks kja....love the photo ops, maybe a hotel rec'? It's a special trip, so somewhere lovely BUT we'd love to be able to be in a great area to 'just' walk. Restaurants...... Both great lunch drop ins and a special dinner or two?

I can't help with a hotel rec -- I stayed very low-end.

I think I already mentioned that I loved the duck at Da Dong, which still seems to get good reviews. I also enjoyed the hotpot at Ding Ding Xiang, which also still seems to get good reviews.

We also loved Da Dong…and if you want to go atmospheric, high end. Huang Ting, in the Peninsula Hotel was lovely. We stayed at the Park Plaza Beijing Wangfujing, which was a great value 4* hotel….very centrally located and could walk less than a block to the Metro. Also, if you're in a hurry and don't want to spend for pricey hotel buffet, Starbucks was across the driveway. Very comfortable hotel.

B/class flights booked and confirmed with points....now the planning gets serious. ;-)

I'm thinking Raffles, it looks really special, great location and they are offering some good deals for the time we will be there. As our flight gets into Beijing at midnight (yuck) Sunday November 2, we will book the hotel from the night before.

Next decision, I'm thinking of staying out at the Wall at http://www.brickyardatmutianyu.com/ for one night, thoughts? I thought it might be nice to have a bit of time for strolling and even visiting a local village.

Our flight home is at 1.30am (yuck yuck yuck) Saturday November 8.

I'm thinking the nights of 1-2-3-4-5 November at Raffles and the night of the 6th at Mutianyu, coming back late in the day (maybe via the Ming Tombs?) of the 7th and booking a airport hotel till departure.

Looking forward to your thoughts...........

The Raffles is rare in Beijing in having a genuinely historical quality, despite having been foreign-built originally. The rooms in the front (historical) building are substantial and in the rear one fall only just short of being suites. The breakfast is one of Beijing's best, so try to find a room rate that includes it. Service is also relatively alert and effectively by Beijing standards. The location is indeed excellent, and there's a metro station directly outside, but obtaining a taxi can be slow--they're not allowed to stop in Chang'an Dajie and tend to dash to the front of the neighbouring Beijing Hotel.

If you are still looking for a hotel recommendation, we enjoyed staying at the Orchid Hotel, a small boutique hotel in Baochao Hutong. We were in Beijing in October 2012 and we stayed in the Yang room ( I think). There is a Yin room and a Yang room. We were in the room with the private rooftop terrace. The other room (Yin) that I mentioned has a courtyard garden area. You can figure out which is which by checking out their website.

We considered other small hotels in the hutongs, but chose the Orchid for its location near Beihei and Houhai parks and for the view from the rooftop terrace of the room. We had a great view (lit up at night) of the Bell Tower and enjoyed the sights and sounds of everyday activities in the Hutong, including the flocks of domesticated pigeons flying around early every morning and in the evening. I found being in a smaller hotel was a good antidote to balance the ill effects of jet lag and lack of sleep flying from Florida to Beijing.

Joel, the owner of the Orchid and his staff of young English-speaking European women were very helpful to us in making our stay in Beijing delightful. We walked many places, sometimes took the subway or a taxi. One day we arranged for a driver to take us to Mutianyu and the Ming Tombs. I posted a trip report called "No Chinese Food in China". You can find if by clicking on my screen name if you are interested. Ignor my trip report called "No Chinese Food in China Part 2". That was the result of me being an amateur at posting on this forum!

If you have any questions about our experience at the Orchid, let me know.

Thanks AndreaLang, much appreciated but we have booked Raffles on the club lounge floors. I'm a bit excited about that. We've decided to stay put for the six nights and just do a day trip out to the wall and we've decided to organise this when we arrive.

As this is a special anniversary trip and just two weeks after our second daughters wedding, we don't want to over plan. (2nd of our daughters to be married this year! :-/)

Thanks again.

Have a great trip, aussiedreamer. I hope you will do a trip report about all your adventures!

Re-Reading as we are off in a week. Both weddings are over, one daughter honeymooning in Singapore & Phuket, the other is heading to India tonight with some friends. So we are really looking forward to this holiday.

I'll report back soon as we are only away for a week.
Thanks for all your help.

Enjoy!