My own disappointment with Min Thu (Bagan)
 

We have recently returned from Burma, and I wanted to post a follow-up about my own disappointment with Minthu.

As I posted in losaltos's thread, I had booked Minthu for 3 days in mid-March. Minthu emailed me on March 8th -- the day of our flight from the US to Burma and 7 days before our arrival in Bagan -- to bail on us because he was allegedly going to be in guide school. Minthu sent this email 5 days after losaltos's March 3rd post (that Minthu had stood them up that day because he was in guide school). Thus, it is very likely that several days before Minthu contacted me to bail because he was allegedly going to guide school, Minthu knew that he may have to bail on us.

Due to the last minute cancellation, I figured it would be best to ask Minthu if he could book us with another horse cart driver, and he said he could send his friend. We accepted, and ended up spending 2.5 very good days with Ko That (see my review and his contact info in my trip report). In the interest of objectivity, I must give credit to Minthu for booking us with a good horse cart driver with whom we were happy.

Nevertheless, I independently asked both our horse cart driver and Minthu's brother/cousin (who picked us up from the airport by car) if Minthu was in guide school. Each of them -- independently -- answered that Minthu was NOT in guide school and was in Bagan taking around other tourists. Additionally, I saw empty horse car No. 54 (what I understand to be Minthu's horse cart) parked outside one of the temples we visited. An innocent explanation is possible (e.g., that Minthu was going to guide school on our dates and didn't end up going, and then took another customer at the last minute), but Minthu's conduct -- on its face -- appears to be highly sleazy at worst and a poor understanding of customer service at best.

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The bottom line, in my opinion, is that there's no compelling reason to bother with Minthu. At least three posters have complained about questionable tactics by Minthu within the last couple weeks, and there are probably a dozens of other perfectly capable horse cart drivers in Bagan. Indeed, we had a perfectly good experience with another one (I'd encourage anyone to book with Ko That). Minthu just feels a bit like the Wizard of Oz: so much hype, only to be a disappointment in reality.

<i>to bail on us because he was allegedly going to be in guide school</i>

<i>Additionally, I saw empty horse car No. 54 (what I understand to be Minthu's horse cart) parked outside one of the temples we visited. An innocent explanation is possible</i>

<i>but Minthu's conduct -- on its face -- appears to be highly sleazy at worst</i>

It would have better received if you had included this in your trip report. Making an independent entry like this looks like your main objective is to discredit someones livelihood because you felt harmed. Looks like a legal vendetta or something resembling one.....

Didn't he give you a weeks notice and an able replacement which was outstanding? Maybe he has guide school only in the morning or afternoon only?
Oh, you mentioned that.

I agree with HT, sure you have a legitimate issue as you feel let down, but to do an individual post about it looks spiteful on your part......

I've been in touch with Minthu pretty regularly via email, and he did write to tell me that he passed the tour guide entrance exam very recently and he is now enrolled in school. I really don't doubt the veracity of that statement. His email was written with the intent to share good news and express his happiness. Given all that I know about Minthu, I'm sure he did all he could to make sure you didn't get stranded without a cart and guide. I do not disagree that there are other horse cart drivers in Bagan, many are well qualified, and they all share a camaraderie with each other and help each other when they can.

"It would have better received if you had included this in your trip report." --> I didn't think my experience with a person I didn't use was relevant to my trip report. The facts are the facts, no matter where they're posted. I've reported facts and made sure to distinguish the facts from what is my speculation/conjecture/opinion, and future travelers can make decisions based on the facts posted by me -- and others who have had similar disappointments with Minthu.

"Making an independent entry like this looks like your main objective is to discredit someones livelihood because you felt harmed. Looks like a legal vendetta or something resembling one....." --> Actually, my main objective *is* indeed to discredit the god-like reputation that Minthu seems to have. There are many fine horse cart drivers in Bagan (including my excellent one), and I don't see the sense in booking with Minthu given that two other Fodors posters recently reported that he stood them up *in Bagan* (a much more serious problem than bailing on us a week before).

"god-like"?? I don't think I have ever heard of a horse cart driver in a poor third world country being referred to as god-like before! If you mix up the letters of his name "Min Thu", one of the possible combination is "Him Nut"!

I understand that we all take our respective trips fairly seriously, and we expect much out of our planning and efforts. I really don't see the utility in tarnishing the reputation of an otherwise defenseless person who earns an extremely meager living driving people around in a horse cart. This is a truly sad display. Travelers here as well as the thousands that do not use this forum use horse cart drivers and make their own choices. This topic is available to people all over the globe and is in poor taste, unnecessary, and spiteful.

These continuing attacks on a poor Burmese horse and cart driver by a rich westerner are as pathetic as they are spiteful. So the OP had a bad experience in trying to book a service, get over it and move on. Attempting to destroy the business of a a man in a country which is struggling to make its way into the international community after years of military oppression is just cruel.

There are more important things going on in travel and the world in general that warrant more attention than this. My next trip is to South America. If it were Asia, I would be heading straight to Bagan just to support Min Thu! Horse and car drivers of the world unite and rise up against this oppression!

The backlash I've received is a bit surprising. These travel forums (Fodors as well as the other major travel forums) are an invaluable resource for us to share our experiences -- both good and bad. Through these forums, I've found many outstanding guides and drivers -- all over the world -- who have transformed good trips into amazing trips. And I've posted glowing reviews of such individuals -- to both to help their business and to help fellow travelers have the same experience that I did. The occasional times when I've had a bad experience, I have felt obliged to write a negative review so that fellow travelers are warned and can plan accordingly. In fact, I think it is particularly helpful to fellow travelers to share a bad experience with guide/driver who is generally well regarded and receives lots of positive internet attention.

Given that I haven't posted anything that is untrue or defamatory, I'm not sure why several people on here are so opposed to the open, free-flowing exchange of information. I, as well as the two other posters who had bad experiences with Minthu in the past couple weeks, have been thoroughly attacked by multiple posters. While the majority of people in Minthu's "fan club" have reacted objectively to the criticism of Minthu, I really don't understand the desire by several other folks to suppress the facts and defend Minthu at any cost. I try to put myself in the shoes of someone planning a trip to Bagan, and this is information I'd want to know. I'm not sure why others feel differently.

I suppose what I find indefensible is that all this smacks of the big rich guy picking on the small poor guy with the main effect, intentional or otherwise, being to damage his fledgling business. It is almost akin to bullying where the victim, has no means of response because the accuser/ is hiding behind the anonymity of the www.
If you are at ease with the probable effects of your action fine, but I certainly wouldn't be. A comment about service, good or bad is fair enough, but this constant character assassination of someone, by your own admission, you have never met is, in my opinion, both unfair and unacceptable.

PS In the interests of clarity, I am not a member of the " Min Thu fan club as I have never met him and probably never will. Like other posters here, I am just trying to stick up for the small guy.

Wow. A horsecart driver in Bagan cancels on you - in advance - and sets you up with a horsecart driver you like and his thanks for that is that you try to destroy his business!

"Actually, my main objective *is* indeed to discredit the god-like reputation that Minthu seems to have."

Calling a humble Buddhist horsecart driver "god-like" would be funny if it wasn't said with such malice.

I'm sorry that some people have been disappointed in Min Thu. I won't defend him for cancelling on people at the last moment. But setting out to destroy a man's reputation and business is, IMO, indefensible. You suffered no loss, but you want to make sure he does.

Writing a negative review is one thing, setting out to destroy a man's reputation is another.

I think we feel differently because the only facts I can see about your story is that Min Thu correctly canceled a reservation with you one week in advance and then upon your request got a horse cart and guide for you with whom you were satisfied. All of the other hearsay and your imaginations on what may have happened is all your now tainted opinions. If you read over what you wrote with an objective eye you would see what we mean.

Everyone on this forum is wanting a free flow of information but most on this forum are also pretty quick to pick up on a poster who has an agenda and a mission which the OP clearly admits to.

Also taking a look at your very few posts on this site I do see that complaints are the norm and kudos are in very short supply......no embellishments just the facts.

Wow Kathie, you and I were writing at the same time but am noticing that like minds......

Aloha!

I understood the OP's main complaint to be that Min Thu was being deceptive: that is, he claimed to be in one place [school] while the OP believed (and claimed to have supporting evidence) that Min Thu was in fact with other clients. My impression was that the OP saw this as disingenuous, and that s/he thought it worthwhile to bring this to others' attention. If indeed the OP's version is substantially correct -- if Min Thu was deceptive in the reason he gave for cancellation -- that would, to me, be important. But the OP is just one voice, and the bigger picture is made up of all the voices who have relevant information.

I would find it unwise to conclude that the moral high ground belongs to one side or the other, or, certainly, to speculate on the OP's motives.

I believe the OP just saw the no. 54 cart at a temple and did not see Min Thu himself? Isn't it possible that while Min Thu was in school he let others drive his cart, perhaps to make some income to feed his horse?

$20 a day for his service, probably $5 go to feeding his horse, $5 go to feeding himself and family, $5 go to up-keeping his rickety cart and the last $5 go to his family or kids for schooling etc.

Don, we don't need to speculate on LAX's motives, he/she has voiced those loud and clear.
Now i have been to Bagan but chose not to use this horse cart driver, so I, like Crellston have no first hand knowledge of this person but the way in which the OP has chosen to deliver the information is to me unpalatable and as i said in my post further up just looks downright spiteful.

What I find stunning is that you will attack this incredibly sweet, honest, and caring person anonymously on a website to which he does not have access. Why not reveal yourself so we can also test the veracity of your statements. Clearly, you revealed yourself on a dating site. Did you even bother to understand this culture while you visited the country? Do you understand how Buddhism works? Do you understand that your post can destroy his life? His families’ life? This isn’t filing for bankruptcy. This is not being able to eat.

I don’t see anything that he did wrong. Your disappointment ironically is focused on him not being available to you. But you did not suffer any harm, you were well cared for while you were there, and you have the person whom you viciously attack, to thank for it. Expressing displeasure is one thing, attacking someone by highlighting a non-substantiated deficiency is altogether different. You saw horse cart 54? By your own admission, you never met Minthu, and you never saw him. Why paint him out to be a liar? By all means, speak to the quality of service, but do not attack someone’s character based on pure happenstance.

I have used Minthu’s services, and hundreds of others have used his services. I will always recommend him without hesitation to anyone who ever inquires. He, however, always has the right to say no if he is unable. I can personally state that he is thrilled at being able to begin a new chapter in his life, while you attack his progress. This country is now seeing an influx of visitors like never before. Little did they know that this means that unpleasant people also will travel there and seek to destroy all that is dear to them.

Since when has name calling, personal attacks, and innuendos been acceptable on the Asia Board? I'm talking about postings on both sides of the question. I understand that people have points to be made, but that can be done without the nastiness I see emerging in this thread.

Perhaps the editors will close this thread? I too am uncomfortable with the direction it has taken...

Upon all the stellar recommendations on this forum, we booked Min Thu as our guide for our visit this past summer to Bagan. And, I was not disappointed in the least bit. He was gracious and sharing. He went out of his way to take us to where ever my son and I requested. We talked constantly and connected as human beings, anxious and excited to share our cultures. He shared his home with us and he took us to his favorite tea house. He even treated us to tea, as that is his culture. At the end of the trip when I told him I'd never remember where we've been, he showed up the morning of our departure with a handwritten list of all the places we visited with a brief description. He was a professional that went well beyond any guide would go.
He also was a professional to provide a replacement when he realized that he could not forfill his duties of showing up. He had someone as trusting as him, show up. How great is that? Provide a solution. And as this disgruntled person stated, a very good solution. So let's all get behind Min Thu and send him our love and support. He's demonstrated that, yes he can! Go to guide school, solve problems and move onto bigger and more successful things. And hey, maybe this is the even the end of the horse cart and the start of a terrific travel agency. I'd book with him any day.
And P.S....I keep in touch with Min Thu. He wrote me 2 weeks ago to tell me how excited he was that he got accepted to guide school.
LAX, I'm sorry, there's always one in the group that stinks, and you're it.

Wow, I didn't expect such strong reactions against the OP. This has happened before when there has been criticism of guides who are regularly recommended on the board. Other Fodorites are probably taking note and will censor similar negative opinions in the future. I certainly would.

The gist I get is that the OP is telling others not to go out of their way to book Min Thu in particular, as there are other guides available who are just as good. I appreciate that and would want to continue to read about LAX's experiences.

In general this is one of the nicer boards, and I laud the efforts to maintain the sense of fair play, but I do want to read about both negative (albeit strongly worded) and positive experiences.

debnyc: Your otherwise helpful post with would have been much more effective had you refrained from the childish remark in the last sentence, "LAX, I'm sorry, there's always one in the group that stinks, and you're it." Indeed, given that that both losaltos and 520 posted about Minthu recently standing them up within the past few weeks (see http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...in-min-thu.cfm ), I guess there's 3 in the group who stink!

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"I believe the OP just saw the no. 54 cart at a temple and did not see Min Thu himself? Isn't it possible that while Min Thu was in school he let others drive his cart, perhaps to make some income to feed his horse?" --> I have no idea what Min Thu looks like, so I can't say one way or another whether I saw him. His brother/cousin and our horse cart driver independently told me that Minthu was in Bagan touring with another customer, and not in guide school. Anything is possible: someone else could have been using Minthu's horse cart, there could have been translation problems regarding what I was told by the brother/cousin and our horse cart driver, their information might have been incorrect. I have simply laid out the facts, and I don't think there's anything controversial about a single fact I posted. It's perfectly clear where my facts end and where my speculation/conjecture begins. I believe I have a reasonable basis for my speculation, and others are welcome to disagree with that speculation and interpret the facts as they see fit.

I suggest reading some of the OP's other posts -- and then let's discuss fair and objective again as a group. I've met Beverly Hills housewives easier to please.

Others can feel free to feign shock about how the OP has been treated (really people, it's a message board. True outrage should be over hunger and opression in the world -- not about about someone's vacation posts) But let's call a spade a spade: the OP said point-blank: "Actually, my main objective *is* indeed to discredit the god-like reputation that Minthu seems to have" so...there is an agenda. Facts are facts.

I would say more but I fear the lawyer might run back to the moderators and report me again to have my posts removed.

Will, I agree, anyone reading this thread should also,read the trip report. I don't think there is another one like it about Burma. And The OP clearly states his intention is to discredit someone. This is enirely different that sharing "disappointment" about about a cancellation (and one where alternative arrangements were made and NO HARM DONE).

I don't think there is anything that will be written here that would make the OP feel shame about the potential negative consequences of the post. And as for the "fact" about independently getting information that Min Thu was with other clients, the English language abilities of the two people the OP asked about this are poor (we spent two days with brother/cousin and the OP stated his driver did not have great language skills). There IS something controversial about calling this a fact. They could easily have misunderstood the questions, answered yes or nodded, who knows how the questions were phrased to them, etc.

I think posting valid criticism is a good idea. I didn't object to the other thread where people recounted MinThu cancelling at the last minute. People were unhappy with that, and I think they should report it.

In this case, MinThu cancelled in advance and supplied another horsecart driver. Many would say this is no harm, no foul. If the OP wanted to report it here anyway, that would be up to him.

What I object to his the OP's stated purpose to destroy MinThu's reputation. ""Actually, my main objective *is* indeed to discredit the god-like reputation that Minthu seems to have."
While there is criticism of guides, hotels, services regularly on this board, I cannot recall another poster whose stated purpose was to destroy someone's reputation.

"Will, I agree, anyone reading this thread should also,read the trip report. I don't think there is another one like it about Burma."

Burma is changing. You'll just have to accept that reality, and be thankful you went sooner than later. I don't think that anything in my trip report is "breaking news." We had a nice trip, and my trip report talks about both the unfavorable changes and the excellent, unspoiled experiences we had (particularly Kengtung).

FYI, someone posted this trip report on TA yesterday -- http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...t-Myanmar.html ("aggressive selling of Chinese crappy souvenirs at entry to many temples"; "Bagan with its 2000 ancient temples is amazing but marred by the aggressive sellers and rip off merchants,"; "Lots of people rave about Burma and my intention is to add a little balance. All in all I would not return.") I don't agree with some of the comments this person made, but you'd be blind not to accept that Burma is likely not the country you saw even a year or two ago.

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" And as for the "fact" about independently getting information that Min Thu was with other clients, the English language abilities of the two people the OP asked about this are poor (we spent two days with brother/cousin and the OP stated his driver did not have great language skills). There IS something controversial about calling this a fact. They could easily have misunderstood the questions, answered yes or nodded, who knows how the questions were phrased to them, etc."

Since you asked, the questions were open-ended (e.g., Q: "where is Minthu today" / A: "out seeing temples with another client") and I asked follow-up questions to confirm what I just heard. I'm used to dealing with cabbies, hotel staff, etc. who have limited English skills, and it's always a good idea to ask open-ended questions and confirm previous answers in light of the things you've stated (saying yes/no when they simply don't understand, yes meaning no, no meaning yes, etc.). I've already acknowledged that a translation/communication issue is always possible, and the reader is entitled to form whatever conclusion he or she sees fit.

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"What I object to his the OP's stated purpose to destroy MinThu's reputation. ""Actually, my main objective *is* indeed to discredit the god-like reputation that Minthu seems to have."
While there is criticism of guides, hotels, services regularly on this board, I cannot recall another poster whose stated purpose was to destroy someone's reputation."

I appreciate the well-written, objective and mature critique of what I've written (in contrast with the name callers and apologists for Minthu's indefensible actions). I think people are misinterpreting my statement -- and my intentions. I stated my intention to discredit his god-like reputation, not to ruin Minthu's livelihood and ensure that he never gets a customer again.

Minthu does indeed have a god-like reputation on this forum and on others. E.g., http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...ay_Region.html ("We believe that Minthu should be Bagan’s Minister of Archaeology"); http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntre...readID=2151000 (" Was skeptical of how good he could possibly be, but he really is a knowledgable guide like no other,"). Minthu's reputation is that he's the best Bagan guide / hose cart driver, and you HAVE TO use Minthu if you come to Bagan or your trip just won't be the same. Based on my personal experience (and others' experiences in recent weeks that are consistent with my personal experience), I think that reputation is undeserved. I'm sure Minthu knows a ton of history and has made lots of customers very happy, but he's not perfect and he's made several mistakes in the recent past. And you can have a great trip with another horse cart driver (we certainly did); there are a likely number of other outstanding horse cart drivers out there who haven't become internet sensations but will give you a great experience in Bagan. Given all this, I do think that Minthu's god-like, "you have to use him" reputation is unwarranted (people who had great experiences with him have every right to think his reputation is warranted). My message to those reading all the wonderful Minthu reviews and thinking that they "have to" use Minthu to have a good experience in Bagan would be to not bother trying to book Minthu in advance and to consider giving another horse cart driver with positive reviews a chance. These other hard-working guys are struggling to earn a living, too.

give it up, enough is enough... your appeals have expired!!!

The godfather of the Asia board has spoken LAX. I suggest you heed his advice and give up now!!

Ha ha yea Don Bob has spoken!

First I can only assume that lax esq is a troll and/or attorney.

Second all these posts would make for great material for "white people's problems" on Saturday night live.

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I somewhat sympathize with LAX_esq. Min Thu's prices are pretty out of line compared to other guides: 30,000 kyats for the horse cart service and an additional $25 as guide fee. His car service is $50 a day and and the additional guide fee of $25. Not outrageous or unaffordable for some western travelers but it doesn't seem completely fair to the other cart drivers that his rave reviews on Fodor's and TA have enabled him to charge this much. This is just my own opinion - please do not place me in Fodor's dog house. I do appreciate people like Kathie who take their time to write painstakingly detailed and informative trip reports.