Fodor's Travel Talk Forums - Malaysia & Indonesia no go for Americans?

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Oh for heaven's sake, I have to say that I am stunned, and to certain degree, amused by your depiction of today's China; it is more than just ignorance, it is the worst kind of prejudice running amok. You are, sir, behind the time at least 15 years. Your comments really made me wondering about the depth of your other analysis regarding other issues, and other countries. I am no fan of communism, and the Party. I only speak the truth. And the truth is that I am sure that you have never been in China and you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't think we are entitled to waste other's time to argue politics on this forum. I just want to point out a few things then I shut up: 1. According to CIA's database, China's per capita income in 2001 was USD4300, very well into lower to medium rank of the world community(Indonesia: $3000), and higher than many of the former Soviet East Bloc countries. Considering China's relatively low living expenses, the real purchasing power for the Chinese is much higher than the dollar amount indicated. The words you used, "a miserable stinking mess", not only showed your true thinking towards poorer nations, but very offensive as well, and not only to the Chinese. 2. Yes, currently only a small portion of the whole Chinese population are traveling abroad, but you are still talking about many millions of them. Going into any travel agency in Asia or in Europe and ask them in a few years where would they expect the largest growth of tourists to their country, I can assure you the answer is: China. Try it to believe it. The fact is that today ANYONE in China can apply and get his/her passport and go, there is no more restrictions whatsoever, and in a few years, you will see Chinese tourists all over the world, just like today's Japaness. 3. "The overwhelming majority of people know practically nothing at all about the outside world because they are not allowed to". Let me tell you something, sir. In China, the latest number of registered internet user is somewhere around 40 million, internet cafes are all over the place, and the number keeps doubling every year. Believe it or not, there are more Chinese internet users who are using broad band connection than those in most other countries. And to my best knowledge, ordinary Chinese can freely access CNN, MSNBC, YAHOO, GOGGLE, etc. without problems. In fact, the college educated Chinese definitely know more about the outside world and the world affairs than the average American college level folks. For those who plan to travel to China, you may want to talk about politics with ordinary Chinese and you will find by yourself how open and free they may comment on international affairs and critize the Chinese government and the Party. 4. Yes one young English tourist was murdered a few days ago near the Great Wall. What are you trying to prove by mentioning that? Do you really believe it supports your assertion of "Oh, and everyone else had better not go to China" because China is dangeous? And finally, sir, I have to emphasize again your surprisingly lack of knowledge on international issues. My advice? To your best benefit, next time try to collect some facts before commenting on something that you know little about. And for readers of this forum's best benefit as well. We deserve it.

There is so much baloney in the above it's barely worth wasting breath on. Exaggerated politeness (is that supposed to be sarcasm?) is no substitute for accuracy, and this is just nationalistic self-love at its arrogant worst. Let me just start by mentioning, Mr 'next time try to collect some facts before commenting on something you know nothing about', that you need to learn the difference between per capita GDP (which is indeed US$4300 if you believe highly unreliable data issued by the Chinese government), and 'per capita income', which is dramatically less. While it is true to say that it is easier to get a passport than before, it is quite simply a lie to say that anyone can get one, and it is barely to the point, since even with a passport you have to register to leave the country. I have relatives resident in China and have been with them to do this. And then there are still only a tiny handful of countries which have persuaded the Chinese government to allow ordinary Chinese (not that 95% of them could afford it anyway) to buy individual tourist visas. Others have to cheat and buy fake business invitations in order to get business visas. Oh, and let's not forget than single women under 35 will not be granted the right to leave China to visit a number of South Asian countries because of the high number of those going there for prostitution. 40 million Internet users, even if true, represents a mere 3% of the population, so it's hardly a major source of information for Chinese as a whole, even if all the foreign news sites weren't blocked (as they are) and even assuming enough of the people had good enough English to read them anyway. All the sites you mention, including Google, are blocked, you nationalistic, prejudiced, ignoramus. That college level people know more about the rest of the world than the current crop of American college students wouldn't be much of a challenge. But anyway, China has one of the world's lowest percentages of people in tertiary education (134th in the list, I remember reading) so these people hardly represent the population as a whole, do they? In the case of my relatives' friends they are quite good on the countries they want to emigrate to, because having to live there, they don't have quite the rosy view of China that you pretend to have, although you probably know better. But what they actually know about these countries is precious little. Can they freely comment on Chinese politics? Yes, discretely, but not in public, and certainly never in print. Sadly, even college students can mostly only parrot 'Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong.' They don't know any better. What's your excuse? And the comment about the tourist, obviously, was to show how silly these arguments are. Of course the death of one foreigner shouldn't affect plans to travel to China. But the sun does not shine out of heavily polluted China's rear end the way you present it as doing (as the CIA source you very selectively quote makes clear elsewhere). Do you work for the travel industry by the way or are you just so blinkered by your pride of country that want to mislead everybody, trading on your Chinese name to make you seem an authority when you are anything but? Real China is represented by about 900 million people in the countryside, not the Starbucks-drinking classes you seem to think are the only Chinese and who form only a tiny proportion even of city populations. 100s of millions are unemployed or laid off and many won't get US$4300 in their lifetimes let alone per annum, you idiot. You probably know the fact really. So try speaking the truth next time you post.

Dear Oh for heaven's sake, It is my principle that I will not deal with anyone who doesn't understand the importance of social courtesy, or doesn't appreciate the value of basic mutual respect. I will be more than happy to communicate with those who attack my ideas in the most fierce way, but I will simply ignore those who insult me as a person. Regarding your last post, sir, I have to re-evaluate the worth of our entire conversation and I have to unfortunately take you down to an inferior civilization and education level. As a result, to you, I have nothing more to say. Good luck and good night.

Good technique. Having started all this 'China is wonderful' business, having started the patonising insults, having been found to be out of touch if not mendacious, and being short on ripostes in face of the facts, you resort to to the ancient Chinese tradition of calling the other person a barbarian, and retiring to a corner, nose in the air. Satisfied in your own mind that you are superior, you will simply ingore the arguments above (as you ignored your CIA reference source's statement that the growth in the economy is probably half what you'd like to think it is) ready to trot out the same selective, transparent nonsense the very next time an opportunity comes along, probably on this very site. Good luck to you, too, Sir. Sorry everyone else. Some of this was a bit immoderate, and none of it was to the point.

Hey Kang and Oh for Heaven's Sake, People are dying and you morons are fighting over whether chinese can travel abroad and if their income is really $4300... Geesh!

Thanks, kev, for the helpful, clear, and well-reasoned post brimming with incisive argument and perceptive comment on the current situation in Bali. I'm sure everyone has now been enlightened, but nevertheless we wait with bated breath for your next penetrating, informative, and witty observation. In the meantime, since people are dying, we promise not to talk about anything else. No doubt you'll be writing to fodors.com to have all the other threads shut down. I'm sure they'll understand your argument, even if I'm too much of a moron to do so. Again, I'm sorry the China thing erupted here. As I said, it didn't belong, and I've no idea why it got dragged in in the first place.

Dear Kev, As I stated earlier, I don't believe the China conversation should belong here either. However, if you go over this thread, you will see who really started it, by using derogatory language on a people. It left me no choice but to respond. Dear Oh for heaven's sake, I hate to reply to you again as I do believe we are not on the same intellectual level to carry any more consteuctive conversatiion, but your outrageous lies force me to clarify the facts. Here is the official CIA site for my information: http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ip.html where is the statement "CIA reference source's statement that the growth in the economy is probably half what you'd like to think it is"? Repeating lies doesn't make it any truer, sir. I cease to continue the argument because I am never interested in talking with anyone who engages in personal character abuses. You are no exception. No more post from me on this subject.

Kang Whilst I bow to your knowledge and do no argue with your points, you really cannot insult someone when you yourself have taken offence at being personally insulted. It really lets your arguement against said person down. To be perfectly honest I don't think For Heavens Sake deserves anyones attention. I can understand why you are so angry with him/her but best to ignore. Do not sink to their level of posting. People can argue back and forth about whether places are now "no go" for Australians, Europeans and Americans but the facts will speak for themselves. Unfortunately, apart from those whose lives have been taken and their relatives and friends, the main losers are the locals. I come from the UK and the latest news is that 33 brits have lost their lives. When you see the relatives speaking on the TV and see photos and old video footage of those who have been killed it really brings it home to you. Lets leave this post to sink as we should not be bickering amongst ourselves. There are more important things.

Nice one Fiona. The other guy runs rings around Kang's bullshit and you bow to his knowledge. He showed he aint got none. He don't have a leg to stand on. Bowing in the wrong direction lady. Jimbo

Jim using your real name now are you? The ONLY person who thinks for heavens sake has make a good contribution is himself

And which alias are you, "which alias now"? I wonder how you know what everyone thinks.

Look, everybody, I'm really sorry. I lost my temper. But I don't see why I should have to put up with this pathetic assumed superiority and patronising 'you've never been to China' nonsense (not to mention the silly hurt dignity performance in order to avoid the arguments) especially where such condescension is so unjustified, and especially as others seem so willing to believe the nonsense being offered--which is really scary. Fact: The average urban income in the first half of this year was Y657 per month. That's just over $950 per annum. And that's urban. The countryside is a great deal worse off, and that's where more than 66% of the Chinese live. Last year's average annual income in the countryside was Y2366. That's $285 per annum. $285! And these figures come from the Chinese State Statistical Bureau, who also always, like Kang, want you to believe the best about China. The situation in reality is almost certainly worse. So much for $4300. And how many of these people can even afford a passport let alone think of going abroad. Facts: The only people with access to CNN are those who stay in upmarket hotels and a handful of senior cadres, assuming enough English in either case. The Web site is blocked, as are others. There have been widespread closures of Internet cafes in the last few weeks and strict new guidelines to prevent people from seeing sites the government doesn't like (which is an awful lot) have just been announced. The blocking of Google was given wide media coverage in the West about three weeks ago. All the media in China are controlled by the government and the presentation of foreign news is even more highly selective than Kang's presentation of China. Even Western hotels regularly find issues of news magazines missing, or with articles hacked out before they arrive. Foreign broadcast news is regularly blocked even to hotels during the Tiananmen anniversary and at other sensitive time. The people of China know practically nothing about foreign places, as anyone who has travelled there has found out for themselves. Try travelling by train to Hong Kong. The announcements on board, even in English, describing the history, fail to mention that there was ever any foreign involvement in running the place. All the media is like this. Broad access to accurate information about foreign places simply doesn't exist. If the Chinese people are ignorant, no one's saying it's their fault. Fact: I made a mistake about the growth rate when I said 'half'. The claimed growth rate (which always mysteriously exactly matches government predictions for what it will be) is 7-8%, and it's probably no higher than 5% in fact, if that. Still pretty good, but, as with every other state about China, nothing like as good as claimed. And there are lots of structural problems. And let's not get into the education system. Just ask any foreign teacher who has been forbidden to mark their class's papers or seen their figures altered to make sure everyone passes. Or personal freedoms: China still locks up (and won't give exit documents, for sure) anyone who disagrees publicly with the government, and it executes may times as many people as the rest of the world put together, some just for theft and other minor crimes. The police can send anyone they like off for three years without application to a court or any judicial process. The government has never honoured the freedoms guaranteed in the constitution and breaks its own laws all the time. OK, again I'm sorry. I promise, whatever Kang says, or even if he makes one of his 'You are too inferior to me' responses, or even if some other probably well-meaning dimwit posts in his support, not to post on this topic again. Or at least not under this thread. I realise I've made perhaps more of a nuisance of myself even than Kang.

Thanks fiona. I hope the tragedy in Bali could serve as a good wake-up call to those who are still reluctant to participate in the fight again international terrorism; it is clear now through this bombing that those terrorist groups are not just targeting at America; they are acting without concerns to anything, not even the well being of their own people. With the joint efforts of the international community, let's just hope soon a safer world for all us travelers.

Dear Oh for heaven's sake: Good research! My hat off to you! But clearly I think we have at least known that much for sure, that you have indeed never been to China. I have little doubt that you are sincere on what you have posted, but still, I strongly suggest that you go visit China for a few days and see things for yourself. And you will understand how harmful and absurd it could become if one doesn't try to be objective. Measured on a purchasing power parity basis, after the US, China has now possessed the second largest economy in the world, and the stunning economic development in the past 20 years has no sign to slow down. During the current globle economic difficulties, China is perhaps the only one important bright spot left. Dislike the goverment is one thing, refusing to face the reality is entirely another. The world cannot afford to ignore China any longer. To continue doing that will be unwise, and dangeous. Let's keep our words, and drop this thread, for every one's sake.

To: Oh for heavens sake For a person who hasnt been to China you sure can comment on it like you're an expert in the field. You must be either : a) an economic theorist b) a bag of hot air lawyer c) a Presidential speechwriter d) an equity analyst you shld know the common trait of these professions. Since you're so smart let me post you a few questions: 1) Do you know what PPP means? US$900 in China cannot be applied to a G7 std. 2) How come Singapore with all its censorship on the Internet and the shutting up of political opponents has a GDP per capita higher than that of UK? 3) If US is the richest and free-est country in the world how come only 30% of the population hold passports? 4) How do you know Chinese women below 35 cannot go abroad because they work as prostitutes? You must watch too much western bias on CNN to form such an accurate picture of the world without stepping outta your couch.