Last minute help
 

We will be leaving in 10 days for a 22 day China tour. I have read over 100's of posts and need some specific prices on items we might purchase. Most posts only refer to "a good price" We aren't looking for fake Gucci's, etc., just souveniers. What can we expect to pay for:

Mao watches, chops, small terra cotta soldier statues, fake string of pearls, silk pajamas, robes and pillow cases.

Can anyone suggest types of tea to bring back? Lastly, can a wheeled duffel bag be considered a carry-on on the flights we take within China? We are limited to one 44 lb. suitcase. This trip was originally scheduled for April but because of SARS was postponed. I can't believe I will be in China in two weeks. Thanks for any help.

The prices for all the items listed are what hurried visitors with no previous experience of shopping can be induced to pay for them. Whatever prices you see quoted in response here, in most cases you can go dramatically lower. Prices for all these things will vary widely according to where you buy them. If you buy them where your tour guide takes you then you might pay as much as ten to fifteen times more than you need to. Several of the items you list have a vast range of quality, which also makes it impossible to price them. The last Mao watch I bought I paid Y18 for.

Use the search function on this site to search the China section for a posting with 'trip of a lifetime' in the title. In one response you'll find a list of better places to shop for silk in Beijing.

There have been reports on this site that domestic airlines are very strict about carry-on, and that you'd better make sure that it fits the usual dimension limits. But in dozens of domestic flights my observation has been precisely the opposite, and the Chinese travel with vast amounts of carry on materials which fill the overhead bins to more than capacity.

The tea question is also open ended. In most cities you'll see dozens of tea shops, particularly the unavoidable Ten Fu tea. Prices are clearly marked, but whether you actually get the tea you pay for is an open question. Almost all department stores and supermarkets have a tea section with loose tea, or a range of teas in attractive tins. You pretty much pay for what you get. Some of the best of these are seasonal. If you find yourself with free time in Beijing, visit Malian Dao, south of Beijing's West Station, which is a street over a mile of specialist tea and tea-making equipment shops, many run by the tea-growers of Fujian and Zhejiang Provinces themselves. This is worth a visit even if you don't want to shop.

Amongst the most popular teas to buy are Wulong and Tie Guanyin (very strong and high in caffeine). I've been trying teas whose names end in 'silver needles' (yin zhen), not least because I was given some by a Beijing friend a few years ago, who has also forgotten the full name, and I'm still trying to find it again. There are also vast ranges of unfermented green teas, and since these are generally harder to get at home, perhaps make better choices. Even shops like Ten Fu will quickly make up a pot for you if you are obviously intending to buy, and usually have some tea ready for all those who enter the shop to try. Why not let your taste buds do the choosing?

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Some words of advice: bargain hard and pay cash. Many Americans are not comfortable bargaining, but just dive in. Go at least 50% below their offering price, lower if you want. Tell them a price they ask is a number that is unlucky for you, make an offer with an 8 (as 8 sounds like the word for money and is considered a lucky number). The first and last sale of the day are lucky, so use that if you are out early or late. Make a game of it, do not become angry, but also be firm. Walk away if you are not getting a price you want, they will most likely follow you out of the shop and agree to your price, and if not you will either see the same item at another shop or you can go back. As for cash, you will get a better price all the time. If you are having a hard time getting them to agree to a price, tell them you will pay what they are asking with a credit card, or your favored/lesser price in cash. Note that smaller shops and street stalls will most likely not take credit cards. The only exception to cash would be something you are having shipped, so you can leave it to the credit card company if it is never delivered.

Do some pricing at home for fake pearls and silk so you can get an idea of prices; and then go way below when buying in China. Also, if you have seen real silk in US department or speciality stores (where you can be reasonably confident of quality) you will get an idea of what real vs fake is like. A good fake may still fool you, but polyester probably won't. . .

As an example, in the Hong Qiao "Pearl Market" in Beijing, I paid US$18 for a fake black pearl necklace and earrings, which they strung to the length I wanted and added a nice Ming clasp. Even my jeweller was impressed with the quality of the fakes!

At the end of the day, if it is an item you want and the price seems GOOD TO YOU, then it doesn't really matter whether somebody else could get it cheaper.

Much of the advice above appears to apply perhaps to Hong Kong, but not to mainland China, where having money is lucky and not having it isn't. Certainly the advice to offer anything near 50% is poor advice indeed, and to shop anywhere on the mainland which will take foreign credit cards is to guarantee that you will be ripped off. You simply shouldn't shop in these places, or in any place you are taken on a guided tour.

It's the knowledge that dumb foreigners think that paying half price is a pretty good deal which years ago drove first asking prices for foreigners to five, ten, or even fifteen times what will actually be accepted. There's nothing to lose, and vendors find time after time, as this general 'wisdom' that half price is a good deal circulates around foreign tourists, that they can easily end up with 2.5, 5, or 7.5 times what they would usually expect to get. Only in places which see few foreign faces, and if you can speak Mandarin yourself, is the vendor likely to give you a first price double or less what he'll accept. In tourist ghettos such as Beijing's Silk Market, a fake Timberland shirt will typically have a first asking price of Y180, but can be obtained for Y45 (and if you go to other clothing markets you can even find them labelled for that price, so you can go a little lower still). At Panjiayuan the Chinese are buying Yixing teapots for Y8 to Y10, but the first asking price to may be Y50. On other items a multiple of 15 (and going up) is common. On very expensive items (carpets, etc.) the multiple will not be so great, but the sum lost by the overhasty purchaser all the greater in size.

Never make the first offer. The first price spoken is a kind of marker which affects the outcome. It's a positioning statement, and a way of finding out just how dumb the other party is. The higher the first price, the better the chance that the final price will also be higher, too. Bartering is about knowledge and ignorance, and out-of-towners are always more ignorant of local prices (this applies equally to a Shanghainese visiting Beijing). In clannish China being an out-of-towner makes you an acceptable target for unfair practices of all kinds. Being visibly foreign marks you as an ideal mark--someone with both a bulging wallet and radical ignorance, unless you turn out to be someone from the cannier end of expatdom (expats rarely have any idea of real prices either--they live in a different world). Even long-term residents find they are asked twice the price for tomatoes at their nearest street stall. Asking a high price is also a way of finding out just how ignorant you are, and so how to manage negotiation to the final result.

So get the vendor to say a price first. He has nothing whatsoever to lose by putting this sky high and seeing what happens. He'll often strike lucky with the laissez faire attitude advocated above (and that's up to you) and make his profit for the day in a single transaction. If you look pained, surprised, knowing, or amused, and withdraw, he can immediately cut it in half to keep your attention, and if you are new to this you'll immediately think you're on the way to a good deal. You'll often see this happen, and some people are inclined to become angry: "Hey! He's trying to rip us off!" Well, yes and no. He's just trying to get the best financial result for himself, and you didn't have to put yourself in the position of negotiating with him, did you? This is how bargaining works. In any society the price of something is what someone is willing to pay. In this case foreign tourists, in their ignorance, have frequently demonstrated a willingness to pay half of whatever they've been asked, and so prices rise accordingly.

Your first offer should be made reluctantly, and at not more than 10% of his price. This is a situation which continues to change--if everyone comes to accept that paying 10% is about right (supposing things were that simple) then first asking prices will head yet higher still, and first offers should go down. Like the vendor, you can quickly head upwards if you really want the item. You also have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The lower your first offer, the better the chance that the final price will be something near reasonable. Your positioning statement is: "Hey! I may be shopping in a market for tourists, but I wasn't born yesterday." With a regretful smile, of course.

The vendor's price will then usually drop by a large margin. If his first was Y100 and yours Y10, he may come to Y80 or Y50. Your next offer should be Y11 or so. The fact that he is continuing the conversation at all shows that you shouldn't be heading higher in any hurry. And you should continue to go up in small increments as he comes down in larger ones. Walking away is always the way to discover if you've reached bottom or not. The result of all this is that you'll pay a little more than an out-of-town Chinese, but great deal less than the average foreign visitor--half, a third, a quarter... And with the right attitude you'll have lots of fun doing it.

Wherever there's a vendor of any one type of item, there are always many of them. The numbers almost always swell well beyond the capacity of the market to absorb their merchandise. In short, almost all markets, even those riddled with tourists, are buyers' markets. The odd sale to a 50%-er is enough to keep a stall going for a while, and regular, reasonable profit from others is always welcome. There's no need to be madly fixated on paying not a penny more than a Chinese would, but there's no point in giving money away (and there are charity cases in far greater need if you want to do that).

To get the best prices:

Never shop where your tour guide takes you, or at shops which take foreign credit cards

Avoid well-known tourist markets if you can, such as Beijing's Silk Market (which has almost no silk). Yes, there are lots of Chinese shopping there, too, but they know what they are doing, and you don't; and the vendors know they know, and know that you don't understand what prices are being discussed. There are always places where local people shop (see silk shop list mentioned earlier, for example). As in any other country, shopping away from the centre of town is a good idea. Ask the staff of your hotel where they actually shop (although this only works for everyday items such as clothes, shoes, suitcases, etc.)

Shop out of season. This is an option open mostly only to independent travellers, but those on organised tours with only a little free time should at least understand that a rainy day is better for shopping in markets--prices quickly tumble when customers are few. There's also a greater willingness to give you a reasonable price when there aren't lots of other people to overhear this happening. On a sunny day, in a tourist market with lots of tourists in a hurry, prices may simply stay several multiples of what they should be because there are enough people paying those prices to make it not worth spending time with those who want to bargain harder

Never buy near the entrance to a market, or at the first stall of any particular kind that you come across. Always go deeper in, and never (or rarely) buy from the first stall where you start discussing prices. Use your willingness to walk away to educate yourself by getting the lowest price you can from a vendor, encouraging you to make yet lower bids to the next one you speak to

Unless you are an expert, or have spent a great deal of time getting to know quality and price internationally, never buy expensive items in China. There are endless fakes of absolutely everything, and you cannot get a good price on anything with an international market value, unless that thing is actually a fake. Strike carpets, jewellery, gems, and all antiques off your shopping list.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Ah, Peter you just can't STAND it when people other than you give advice can you?! Not selling enough guide books these days?! Of course 8 is a lucky number in China, esp in Beijing where Mandarin is the prevailing dialect! You know that lucky numbers are all over Asia, it is part of the culture; just like asking for a discount is part of the culture. . . .

RELAX PETER, -- is talking primarily about buying fakes so she really won't get ripped off. I stick with my original comment: if it is a GOOD PRICE TO YOU, then buy it! You still are getting a bargain. We are not talking priceless antiques, we are talking about a few dollars. You need to chill out a bit, Peter.

As the original poster, I must say that I have learned so much from these boards. Most of all, to shop away from our tour. We are going into Beijing two days early so we can take advantage of shopping without our group.I have found out that our Pacific Delight tour is down to only 9 people, and three of those are my husband, a friend and myself. I'm sure our tour guide will be getting a headache when we tell him that we will meet him back at the hotel when we take off on our own. I also will probably NOT be wearing my Pacific Delight Identification Button at all times. Hopefully, I will not be paying way too much for items, but, I will try to remember "If you like it, buy it." and don't worry about the price. After all, how much do we American's pay for that fancy cup of coffee at the coffee shop on the corner. Thanks for all of the info.

Set of 4 small terra cotta soldier statues - 5 yuan per set, in the market area just outside of the site entrance. Do not buy at the souvenir stores inside. I actually had no interest in buying these but kept getting offers at a lower and lower price until it reached 5 yuan and ended up buying a couple of sets. I did not haggle, just walked away and the vendors kept following. I was also offered a light green, jade bracelet for 50 yuan but declined (don't know if that's a good price or even if it was real).

In general the prices in Xian seemed lower (both the purchase and initial asking prices) than in larger cities like Shanghai for similar souvenirs.

The following were all at Xiang Yang market in Shanghai:

Set of 6 silk(?) placemats, matching napkins, and chopsticks - 35-40 yuan per set, lots of silk(?) pillow cases, table runners, etc. were offered here as well.

Fake Mont Blanc pens with cloth pouch - 8 yuan each

Fake Coach signature wallet - 40 yuan each, I had to look through several stacks to find the red/brown fabric combination I was looking for. The vendors here seem to swap merchandise as well. If you want something in a color that they don't have, they'll try to swap with another vendor to get it (but agree on the price first).

This year with foreign tourism being hard hit, you'll likely find that vendors will very quickly lower their prices. This was the case right after 9/11 as well when there were fewer American tourists.

As far as the carry-on issue, I don't know what the official size/weight limit is for domestic flights. I use a wheeled rollaboard that's within U.S. airline limits but I've never checked the weight. I haven't had any problems and it seems that lots of people are getting on board with larger bags than mine.

Hope this helps.

P.S. - I thought I'd chime in on the number issue too. I think 8 being a lucky number originated in Hong Kong as the cantonese pronounciation of 8 is 'fa' which sounds like the word for fortune. But I know lots of mandarin speakers who consider 8 lucky as well even though it is pronounced 'ba' in mandarin. 6 is also a lucky number, but I forget why. 4 is unlucky because in mandarin it sounds similar to the word for death. You may occasionally encounter some buildings with no 4th floor similar to the omission of a 13th floor that you sometimes see in the U.S.

Oh and there are no hard and fast rules as far as how much of a percentage off asking price constitutes a good price. It varies from location to location and is dependent on the ratio of tourists to locals shopping there, whether or not you speak mandarin, whether you're a foreign or domestic tourist, etc.

Sometimes I've encountered asking prices of 3 yuan for small souvenirs as was the case with a flute like instrument I found at the market around the corner from the Bell (or is it the Drum, I get those mixed up) Tower in Xian and a few other purchases in Zhou Zhuang in which case, of course, I don't haggle. How do you haggle down from 3 yuan?

Hi, rfbk!

What a wonderful adventure you will be embarking on!

A couple of comments here:

1) On numbers, "8" is indeed considered by the Chinese as a lucky number. The origin is from the ancient pronunciation of "fa -tsay" (sorry, I'm not good at writing Chinese with English letters!) meaning today to "get rich". So, if you have anything with an "8" in it, like a phone number, you are using a number to help you get rich, a lucky thing!

The number "4" is so like the Cantonese pronunciation for "death" that it is considered an "unlucky" number.

On the other hand, the number "3" is so like the Cantonese pronunciation of "life" that it is considered a lucky number!

Well, here in the States, we have our lucky "7"s and unlucky "13"s.

2) rfbk, go ahead, bargain and have fun at it!

I personally feel that bargaining is a win-win situation for both sides - you get the item you want at a fantastic price and the seller has made some money. Certainly, in China, I don't consider I'm getting ripped off, no matter how much money the seller has made, if I pay $2-$5 for a silk tie which would cost me ten or twenty times that amount back home.

After all, people go to Europe and happily fork over $500/more for a MEN'S purse or a flimsy nothing of a Max Mara skirt just because they are considered "designer" items. What could be more of a "rip-off" than designer things? I once saw a designer shirt with holes artfully cut in it selling for thousands of dollars.

In China we are talking of bargaining a few dollars and frequently only a few cents.

3)And yes, Peter, please chill out a bit. You talk DOWN at us from such a lofty height that it detracts from your otherwise excellent comments.

E.g. you made me feel terrible when you characterized the Silk Market in Peking as a "ghetto" since I've been there several times and enjoyed the bargaining process. You made me feel like I was frequently some awful ghetto. The Silk Market is not a ghetto!

I once bought a fishing vest, one of those with a thousand and one pockets, in the Silk Market for a mere $8 US. A like one in the US was selling for $120! Maybe the seller only paid $1 or 2 for it, but didn't we both win?

Then you said something about "dumb foreigners". Well, I'm a "dumb foreigner" in every single country that I go to that is not the US!

You said of Cicerone's advice: "Certainly the advice to offer anything near 50% is poor advice indeed". Why is that poor advice? Isn't she allowed to exercise her own judgment as to how much less she should counteroffer?

By the way, I have bargained in East Europe, in Turkey, in India, in SE Asia, and, yes, in China. I counteroffer with what I deem an appropriate amount, depending on the offer price and the circumstances. To me, 50% or less seem to be very appropriate guidelines.

So, please, Peter, lighten up. I appreciate your comments very much, but please don't beat me over the head with them!

And thanks, too, to Cicerone and Patty, enjoyed reading your excellent comments as well!

rfbk: Have fun in China, especially the bargaining! :)

Thank you, PeterN_H, for your excellent advice on bargaining. I enjoy the sport and want to get better at it, so I saved your lesson to a file for reference.

I think that shopping for some people is an emotional thing, like comfort food. Bargaining is a discomfort, so they drive Saturns.

side steppin here... :)
We also have lucky 13 in the states. It's considered the gamblers lucky #...it also happens to be my luckiest #!

Go to Schenzen (spelling?) just outside of HK. Can take a train very quickly.
Huge 4-5 story shopping mall- the train stops right there.
I found they had larger selections and better looking fake bags there than in HK.
Will spend between 10-50 us$ depending.
Loads of LV's, Gucci,Chanel,Prada,Fendi,Hermes etc. this also includes fake designer shoes, wallets,belts, watches and more!

Bargain like crazy! If they refuse your price after bargaining for a while, then walk away...some will literally chase you down the hall to get your biz back...missy missy com back -I give you!
But watch out for the cops...they love to do drop-bys on the fake biz's..ha!
Happened to us when we were there. Everyone running around closing up their shops quickly...what a sight!
We were in a tiny store and the owner locked the door with all of us customers still inside,lights out and cloth drawn over door front.
20 min. later everything was ok and open again..after which the sales girl gave me a better deal. fun!

Supertitious Hong Kong residents think 8 (BAH) is a lucky number because it is close to the pronunciation of prosperity (FAH). Mandarin-speaking folks didn't give in to this silliness until the big money from Hong Kong started invading the Mainland about 2 decades ago.

To correct Cicerone, Mandarin is not a dialect. It is THE official tongue in China.

I read several guidebooks including Peter's before visiting China and the information is all there.

Well if we're going to get technical, then Mandarin IS a dialect. Even Chinese and linguistics professors will often refer to Mandarin as a 'dialect'. China did not have an official language until the early part of the 20th century when Mandarin, which is the dialect of northern China, became the basis for the official national language. If we want to get really precise, the correct name of the official national language is actually 'Putonghua' not Mandarin (which is a western word derived from the Chinese term 'guanhua' meaning something like 'language of the governing magistrates'). But I'll be the first to admit that I use the two interchangeably.

BTW, what's spoken in Beijing can also be referred to as the 'Beijing dialect'. It sounds slightly different than the 'standard' Putonghua, if there is such a thing as standard (what is 'standard' English anyway?). You can easily tell if someone is from Beijing by their generous use of tongue curling sounds :-)

Before we get into a debate of the definition of the word dialect, I just wanted to add that the point of my above post was that you certainly can't fault someone for referring to Mandarin as a dialect, just as you can't fault someone for saying that Mandarin is the official language of China cause your splittin' hairs here :-)

I think I'll refrain from entering the language debate and just say that I wish I could take y'all with me to bargain on my behalf. I agree with Jason888 - as long as I think I got a good quality item that I like at a fair price, I don't have to squeeze the last yuan out of the seller to feel good about it. Actually, sometimes the transportation/hotel/food/etc...has been so inexpensive that I feel like giving the shopkeepers a little bit more, especially when they provide good service. Thanks to Peter for the negotiating lesson and to Patty for the ballpark prices - it helps to know what others paid for similar items. I have to say when I was in Istanbul several years ago and offered 50% (because my guide told me to start there, ha-ha), the seller actually got mad and let me walk away. I couldn't believe it! I thought he'd at least counteroffer but he wouldn't even work with me. So I didn't get an item I really wanted and he didn't make a sale either. I find the Chinese to be far more pleasant to deal with than Europeans. Can't wait to go back in October!