This sentence should read:

I have NO doubt she and her team are great and perfectly pitched to this clientele - I have no attitude at all here.

WOW - I didn't think a simple question would cause so much 'forum chaos'! Thanks for all your helpful feedback & your 'entertaining' feedback :)

Goalis7continents-our goal is to inform and incite. Your post provided the opportunity for both.

In regards to the Canine comments-I admit there is a fair degree of in-breeding on this forum. It probably stems from the demographic similarities and the relatively small number of contributors. If a known poster recommends someone or something, many of us follow. Baa! Baa!

Sorry, Dog, but I respectfully disagree. People recommend whom they like on this board--if a bunch of people recommend the same person, then the logical conclusion is that perhaps that person is actually good. If anyone is not happy with the recommendations given on this board then pony up some new ones and if the proof is in the pudding, people WILL use them.

That said, I haven't seen one legitimate recommendation (other than Tong) for the Fishing Village. So until that happens, why be a total prat about it? (that's a question for Mango)

Nothing productive was offered in his post other than mockery of other people's likes of a certain guide. Please tell me what the purpose of the post was? You say he's an iconoclast, Dog, but...ARE YOU SERIOUS? Hahahaha! You actually meant to say philistine, right?

There's a huge difference between your sense of humor, Dog, and his. You're funny by way of irony. He's offensive by way of childishness...anyone remember the lovely pics he sent out when trying to make a point about Chinese food? Is this something a grown man actually does?..'cuz my 4 year old nephew is more sophisticated than that.

Mango, look at it this way, at least you have 1 person who likes you here. That's something to work off of. Continue to lambast me, though--and don't address all the people you've verbally smacked down by making a mockery of them regarding their support of Tong and her tours.

It's a shame you're not coming to the GTG. I, for one, would love to meet you.

goals, sorry to hijack this post...we should actually move this discussion to a new post if the madness must continue.

I am not a FOT (Fan of Tong). Like dogster, I have nothing against her. And if she facilitates others seeing the amazing things that my favorite city in the world holds that's wonderful!

I'm not a fan both because I've never met her (no opportunity since I don't use guides in Bangkok) and because I, too, bristle at the idea that every person who makes a first trip to Bangkok must use Tong. Like dogster, I think we sometimes get into too much group-think here. And I object to recommending guides for everyone. Having a guide clearly changes one's experience of a place - sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. (I've written a little diatribe about guides and it was recently published online at http://www.travelindependently.com)

But unlike dogster, I'm no fan of Mango when he behaves badly... which seems to be all too often lately. I find him mean-spiirited. I see no reason for that here.

That link doesn't seem to be working, Kathie.

I, too, have never met Tong, and am not a big fan of guides - or of Bangkok, for that matter! And I prefer to encounter people serendipitously, rather than be taken by a guide. When I read about tour groups doing "home visits", generally from fans of OAT, I shudder.

Try this:
http://www.travelindependently.com

(leave out the stray parenthesis)

Thnaks, Craig!

Yes, that one works. Good posts, Kathie - is that your blog?

Thursdays, no it's not my blog, it's Cheryl's. She asked me to write some entries for her new blog.

I don't think any of us who recommend Tong think at all that going with her is the only way to enjoy Bangkok. It's definitely not.

However, you'll notice that many of us who recommend her so highly all had been to Bangkok many time and loved it before we ever met Tong. The fact that many of us "no tour guide" travelers love her and think that money spent for a day with her is well worth it, says a lot!

After all, the "group think" here is that SJ is a fabulous shopping stop in Bangkok. Does that make it less attractive now that so many of us go there?

I rarely use guides; it's just not my style. A good one, though, can make a city or monument come alive. Tong is one of those people and that is why many of us speak so highly of her.

Let's go back and review how Tong came to be the favorite of many of us BKK fodorites. She was introduced to us through the delightful trip report written by Offwego (Lori) of thePLF.org fame. Lori exclaimed over her adventures with Tong and how her time in BKK was enhanced.

Several other Fodorites used Tong and also raved about their experience. Beth and I and Bob and Karen were going to meet up in BKK in 2006 and decided we would give Tong a try even though all four of us were BKK veterans. We E-mailed Tong to death requesting that she plan a day that would show us some new things. We essentially beat her into submission. Nonmetheless, she accomplished the impossible and provided us with new experiences that we loved. Bob and I, having no actual lives, wrote lengthy trip reports praising Tong in the highest accolades imaginable. We raved about the secret place. We tricked many other Fodorites into using Tong. For the most part, they too were brainwashed and reported wonderful experiences. A small few reported mediocre experinces. Hence, the legend of Tong was born. Blame Offwego. She started it.

I completely agree that you do not need a guide for BKK. It is easily accessible. My experience (and for once, I am not alone in this) is that a day with Tong was really enjoyable and went beyond typical tourism. In modal language, Tong is not necessary. But a day with her will add to m ost people's enjoyment.

Oh, did I mention that Tong took us to orphanages both days we spent with her. She gave us an opportunity to pretend that we were generous people.

I thought you folks on the Asia Board rarely, if ever, disagreed. Despite European leanings, my favorite thing about 2008's Boston GTG was that I am now the proud owner of a TouringwithTong tee shirt!

And Bob, I think if you had to spend a night with each other, at least one of you, if not both of you would be dead by morning. Taking wagers on which one.....

Bc, meandering over here to see what you folks are on about...

You are all turning this thread into another sickening Tong tribute. Not all of us appreciate this but if we say what we think imagine the attack

its not a tong tyribute, its just a statement of fact and our opinions to which we are entitled...mango is just being cheap, devious and confrontational in bringing up all of this..

my last point on guides in bkk is that if you have limited time in bkk, as most tourists go only once to this wonderful city, then your use of a guide/driver will enhance your chances of seeing more of the city and its sights, while not knocking yourself out, or dying of heat exhaustion in the shortest amount of time and in the easiest of fashions...

is a guide necessary, of course not....is it helpful, certainly especially for short timers in bkk...

So tell us what you think, duJack!

lcuy, your point about SJ is exactly right. I do recommend SJ to people looking for particular kinds of jewelry. But it doesn't carry everything. This week there was a request by a poster for me to supply the SJ info to a new poster who was asking about silver jewelry. I instead told the new poster several places to look for silver jewelry and told her that SJ didn't carry what she was looking for. So yes, SJ is a great shopping stop if you are looking for particular kinds of jewelry. But it isn't for everyone - it isn't even for every jewelry shopper.

I know that many people here love Tong and feel she has enhanced their experience of Bangkok. Again, that's wonderful, but it doesn't mean everyone has to do it. And while I hear you, lcuy, that you don't think Tong is the only way to visit Bangkok. But if you read the threads from first-times going to Bangkok, the recommendations make it sound like it's the only way to go. I know this comes from people's enthusiasm about Tong. That's great, but I feel it's important to note that not everyone feels this way.

>So tell us what you think, duJack!<
said the spider to the fly

If we tell the truth about Tong on this site you get attacked by the Tong lovers of which you are one.
The other sites are much more truthful about her and her constant excuses about frequent absences and cancellations. Her tendencies mirror that of a drug addict. Crack to be more precise. Remember, you asked.

I just read Kathie's blog on independent travel and would like to say I thoroughly agree. It is an excellent introduction. I've gone the tour route and would probably never do it again. (Kokoda trail in New Guinea maybe.) Independent is so much more satisfying as you are relying on your own initiative and not approximating a lemming. However I've been ripped off by both tourist agents and tuk tuk men so maybe I'm wrong.

Crack?

Uh, Jack. Maybe save the theatrics for a more appropriate place.

This isn't the Oscars...

Thanks guys, for your considered responses. All of them. I'm pleased I didn't have to duck and cover. I know mang is an acquired taste - but then, so am I. Here's where I'm coming from:

IMHO mang and all those who come in here eyes closed and fists flying add colour to the board. They spark some fascinating responses and a great range of emotion. Which makes for a lively, vital board. Which is what draws us in here.

Filmwill has written some really interesting posts in response, for example, posts that would never have been written. They've made me chuckle too. Gpanda, as keeper of the gate, has opened up the hidden Fodor's history. Kathie has raised the whole fascinating spectre of independant travel vs. guide touring.

downunderjack, in his bluff Aussie way, has said some truths that probably need to be looked at. Try and divorce HOW he's saying it from WHAT he's saying. From my disinterested viewpoint, I've seen dozens of posts following the saga of Touring with Tong - disappearances, cancellations, substitutions. There's another one on the board today: 'Anyone heard from Tong lately?'

Maybe he has a point? I dunno. But it's actually a fair issue to raise. I just wish, downunder, that you'd said it kinda differently. But you made your point very succinctly.


I can't help but also think that 500 or so tourists later, arriving every few days, at 1000bt a head, may just have turned a sweet, secret place into something a little less spontaneous in the last three years. This is inevitable. This is human nature. This is business. This is probably $100 a day for Mr. Fisherman. No wonder he's such a gracious host. Totally cool by me.

I'm sure it's a great show - but it HAS to be a performance, from all concerned, by now. If it's a good performance, you won't know that's what your're watching. Like a great play, you'll abandon yourself to the experience, suspend disbelief and believe it is only happening for YOU, uniquely. This is how it works. It's called show-business.

That's cool by me. Go see the secret show. But, from my disinterested viewpoint, I'm getting the sense that all this Fodor's love may in fact be stretching Tong and her organisation WAY beyond her capacity to cope. I think that's probably more the case than a major crack habit. lol. Do any of you get the feeling that you're loving her to death?

I've never met Tong but from looking at the pictures on her web site I know pretty much where the secret place is. Not so much a secret for most Thais after they've seen the photo but by calling it a "secret place" it does make it sound more exciting! I give her credits for starting this tour and for opening up the area to foreign tourism especially for generating extra income for the fishermen. I also think it's quite refreshing to have a tour to this area of the country instead of the normal tours to the GP, Wats, Klong etc....

IMO the reason that most people are angry at Mango in this instance is because he's trying to undercut the "inventor" or "creator" of this tour on the assumption that Tong is mistreating and underpaying the fishermen. Mango usually make a lot of assumption about people without knowing the full fact or knowing the individual he's attacking and when countered with hard facts he just spew out profanity and insults. Perhaps he's challenged or just plain old angry all the time who knows! I just wish he thinks before he write something as when he's in his "normal" mode he does contribute to the board.

not much of a 'show' - go on a boat, see some monkeys that for once aren't caged up, see some oysters, have a good lunch, enjoy the peace. please - i hate it when people elevate their own experiences of 'travelling' above 'tourist visits' and this is what this smacks of. Why poke holes in others experiences? Why not just accept someone had a good time and not try to denigrate it? I get this kind of rubbish from my immature 21 year old students who go backpacking in their summer breaks and compete for the 'real'-ness of their trips. yawn.

Was this spray directed at me, Bella?

I really didn't intend to provoke an e-cataclysm here, lol.

Dogster- Thank you for your introspective comments and not flaming me here.

Hanuman- You are making gross assumptions about me, take it easy. Your hard facts are soft ones to me. Btw, when have I profanicized, lol? Truce, please.

Filmwill- I like to encourage people to go beyond the norm. My MO might be a bit harsh, but I truly mean well.

Well, so much for the BKK GTG, lol. I'd be risking physical harm at this point. I wouldd do everyone a favor and leave the forum here but I like it too much here, to be honest, with such unique posters as the Dog, et al. As a matter of fact I find the majority of posters here fun and informative.

Btw, I have nothing personal against Tong, for the record. I'm sure she's good at what she does.

Mango7-all input is welcome. My modus operandi is to express my opinion and move on. There are lots who disagree. So what? De gustibus non disputandum est (I'm sure Rizzutto will chime in here to give the exact quote. In fact I rely on his greater skill in this area. I treat quotes sort of like hand grenades. Close is good enough).

My my my!!! I go away to Florida for a nice quiet week, and just look what happens while I'm away... Tsk, tsk, tsk...

(For the record, I've never toured with anyone in BKK, in 15 trips there, but I've met Tong and she is a very nice and sincere person; but I do rather agree with the comment about maybe bringing her more business that she is capable of handling...physically...mentally...healthwise; she is only human after all)

Carol

Although I have great respect for Tong, it is not really fair to say that this is "Tong's secret place" or that the fisherman is exclusively working for her. I am sure she really doesn't want that too. In fact it is a well-known place in Klong Khone Sub-District in Samut Songkhram Province. In has been in the Thai newspapers and on tv a lot. When I was there at the weekend I counted at least six different homestay operations all offering boat tours to see the monkeys. I was doing a site survey for our "Bangkok Daytrips" website and just missed Tong on one of her tours by five minutes. The so-called "fisherman family" is in fact Home Krateng. They do homestay and boat tours. Tong is just one tour guide who brings them business. They take Tong's group out on one of their boats to the specially built fisherman's hut (called krateng in Thai). It is a palace compared to a real krateng out in the bay. They serve food here and also take them to see the monkeys along the coast. You can also book a night here on the krateng which I might do next time.

http://www.thai-blogs.com

I am not sure if I am allowed to post links but the above is a blog I just wrote about my trip to see the monkeys. You will also find links for more information on how to do this trip by yourself. I have posted pictures of the road signs (together with translations) and also maps. But, be warned, it is not easy, as everything is geared up for Thai tourists and not for foreigners. If you are not very adventurous then you might want to use the services of people like Tong. I have seen her website and I am quite impressed with what she has on offer.

Thank you for elucidating here quite succinctly. Nice blog too!

thanks for this review....and for your site...

the name or its stature as a "secret place" are really immaterial...its simply one of the most unique places on side trips from bangkok and tong takes the credit for introducting it to many of us...

i suspect there are other "secret places" in thailand known only to thais and frequented only by thais and thank goodness for that

Bob,

The next time you're here I'll take you to Amphawa weekend floating market, Don Hoi Lod for a lazy lunch and then a sunset cruise to a secret island...

Hanuman- I will find this so-called secret island of yours and expose it and its Chinese associations to the world...and when I find it I'll make damned sure that they won't be selling any Chinese food either.











;)

Funny one Mango. I would invite you on the island for a drink but they only have Tsingtao beer.

Will someone please let me in on the joke with regard to Mango and the Chinese?

Hanuman-is there any way you can take Bob to the secret island and leave him there? My guess is that if you are successful in this endeavor, mango7 won't try very hard to find it. Good plan, eh?

Just read all through this with interest. When I first started posting here (semi) regularly, it seemed that every other Bangkok post was about this most amazing guide named Ratt. And when's the last time her name came up around here?

I've never used either one of them, but I wonder if Fodorite overload has contributed to these guides partially burning out, taking on way more than they can handle.

It's not just us, John...Tong, in particular, is not only fielding Fodorites but TripAdvisor board members AND Thorntree folks as well...you can imagine how much work that totals up to, considering she's just as popular on most of those boards as she is here.

Needless to say, I think it's just her work ethic to work as hard as she does. Considering the state of the world right now, I think it's a good thing to have 'too much' business. :)

Gpanda,

If I leave Bob on my secret fog covered island then the poor natives will have to build a giant wall to contain him. They will think of him as a god that they must appeased with offering of virgins, or if one is hard to find - a blond lady-boy. One day Mango or a Hollywood type like Filmwill will find my island and exploit it by capturing the now "wild" or farrow Bob. Think what would happen if they bring him back to the States!

"Secret place" great exaggeration - there are like half a dozen homestays there! See here for all the info on going there

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/...og=5#feedbacks