India----help please
 

I have contacted Kumar Taxi and Smile India with the following 12 night tour: Delhi(3) Mandawa (1) Jaipur (2) Agra (2) Orchha (1) Khajuraho (2) flight to Varanasi (1) with private car and driver. Kumar quoted $1785 per person and Smile India $1491 using 3& 4 star hotels. I priced the hotels for a total of $1250 and the 2 flights are $214 per person. Could the car & driver cost $946 or $652 per person depending on which agency I use? Am I missing some detail that makes this trip so expensive? I have read many trip reports, guide books, etc. and never expected the car to cost so much. Any insight? Thanks

Hi dilen: I'm finding it hard to understand your post. Are you saying that the $1785 & $1491 are quotes for hotels & flights then on top is $946 & $642 for car & driver? Per person.?

How many traveling?:
Assuming two are you saying that they want $1892 & $1284?

What kind of car?:
Different cars cost different $$. Go here, for example and have a look:

www.carrentaldelhi.com

I'm sure someone smart will come in here and tell you.

One observation though: why use a Cochin based travel company [Kumar Taxi] for a North India tour? All they'll do is sell you on to someone else. You pay two commissions.

I believe that the poster is using Kumar Taxi out of New Delhi. However, I do agree that Kumar will be contracting some of this work out for places like Varanasi, as you are not driving there from Delhi using his drivers. So you may as well do this yourself. IMO, you don’t need car for a good bit of this trip, and can hire them <i>ad hoc</i> as you need them, which will be cheaper. And the notion that someone for some reason needs the same car and driver for a trip to India is misguided, IMO. And the idea that your driver is also a licensed and/or a knowledgeable guide is also incorrect: a good licensed guide would never lower himself to do something like drive. That’s what the drivers are for. So you are better off using public transport, local drivers where necessary to take you places, and hiring actual guides for limited sites as necessary. Also, read a lot and bring good guidebooks with you. DK/Eyewitness are very good. (Apologies to Fodors.) (A good local driver, however, can give you insights into local festivals that are happening, and you should always ask about this. He may not be able to explain them to you, but he can take you to them, and someone there can explain them to you.)

For example, you don’t need an driver at all for Agra, take the train from either Delhi or Jaipur and the use your feet, a bicycle rickshaw or a taxi to get around Agra (which includes hiring locally for an entire day to go someplace like Fatephur Sikri). You can train between Agra and Jaipur (a car is a bit more convenient, because you can logically stop at Fatephur Sikri on the way out, but I have done it both by car and train, and either work fine. ) You can hire a car in Jaipur to do the fort and other areas including Mandawa. Find a driver you like in Jaipur and then use him for the overnight to Mandawa, this would be cheaper than the pre-arranged service. You don’t need a car in Varanasi, again use your feet or local transport, including hiring for half a day to go to Sarnath. Much of the old town of Varanasi is closed to traffic and the car and driver would be useless, hire a local guide for half a morning to take you out on a boat and walk you around the old city. All in, this should be cheaper than paying for meals and hotels for a driver to stay with you, plus the overhead Kumar and the others will charge you to arrange this. Yes, it may be slightly more of a pain to go bargain with a taxi driver for a fare, but in the scope of things, easily done. Also, if you hire a driver for the whole trip, there will undoubtedly be days when you may not use him at all, and you will be paying him for nothing.

IMO you could skip Khajuraho, esp for 2 nights and spread your time out elsewhere in more interesting areas, like the countryside around Jaipur and certainly 1 more night in Varanasi. If you want to see good examples of temple carvings, go to the National Museum in Delhi; the ones at Khajuraho are not especially fine examples. Also, the drive from Orchha to Khajuraho (if that is your plan) is not great, roads are not in very good shape (and that is saying something for India), it’s a lot of bumping around for 4-5 hours. And if you are planning on driving from Agra to Orchha, that’s like 6-7 hours, which IMO is a long time in one day on Indian roads, even that one which is fairly good. You might look into a train to Jhansi from Agra (the Shatabdi Express only takes 2.5 hours), and then drive to Orchha from there, it’s less than half an hour. You could also then train from Jhansi to Varanasi on the night train. Train fares, even first class or executive class, are very cheap in India.

If you skip Khajuraho, then with good use of flights and trains you could consider the following: Delhi, fly to Varanasi, fly Varanasi to Jaipur (on Kingfisher via Delhi), do Jaipur and Mandawa, then train or drive Jaipur to Agra, then train Agra to Jhansi/Orcha, then train Jhansi/Orcha back to Delhi (via Agra). No overnight train journeys, just short hops which are quite pleasant on Indian trains, and no really long car drives.

I would be curious to know that “3 and 4 star” hotels these outfits have hooked you up with, as the star ratings are essentially meaningless in India. As long as a hotel has a beauty salon, for example, it rates as a 5 star, even though they may not have replaced their carpets or bedspreads in 20 years (and some haven’t). So, read reviews on tripadvisor.com or post on this board. Also see Alistair Sawday’s book and website Special Places to Stay India. If the tour agencies actually picked the hotels <i>for</i> you, I would look very closely at them, as they get commissions from the hotels and may steer you to hotels you prefer, rather than hotels which would be appropriate, esp in terms of location, for tourists. There was a poster here recently who was going to be placed by her agent into in a business hotel outside Jaipur by the airport for her trip to Jaipur.

More fantastic advice from Cicerone. However I do get the feeling that the OP may not feel comfy doing it themself, judging by the nature of the tours they want to book - by the trust they are placing in their company - AND by the amount of money they want to spend.

I don't think they have any idea just what their itinerary will entail in terms of driving. They're being advised IMHO by trvel companies whose INTEREST lies in getting them endlessly on the road. The longer they spend driving - the more money the company makes.

So these guys will happily chuck you in a car for 5,6,7 hours a day. Mucho $$. AND happily have your driver sitting around at $100 a day.

Like they're gonna do to these guys.

Caveat Emptor.

for 12 days driving in a private SUV i would expect to pay about $500 in the golden triangle, but more for out lying areas....that is not per person

My take on the math is that they are being charged either $3570 or $2982 for the two people for the 12 nights.
Or $1892 just for the car &amp; driver.


Wow. Good deal...for the agency!

i would do as Cicerone says... shorten your trip and do it yourself. You can do Delhi-Agra-Jaipur-Delhi by car, then fly or take the overnight train to Varanasi and fly back to Delhi.

Book your own hotels (use the ones you were quoted if you want), book the Varanasi flights online (Kingfisher Air), and ask your hotel in Delhi to get the train tix if you decide to do that one-way to Varanasi.

For the golden triangle-Delhi-Agra-Jaipur-Delhi, email Narender at [email protected] or call his cell at +919 899 360 606. He's a cautious driver, very kind, and very honest. Not the cheapest but certainly one of the best. Ask him to quote for just him and the car. If you want a guide in Agra or Jaipur, he can quote that too. I would not reserve a guide or car in Varanasi, especially if you'll be staying by the river. It is a walking/rickshaw town. Just have your hotel arrange to pick you up at the airport or train.

Why do it that way? If you are not concerned about money then ?? If you are then why are you doing it this way. There are planes, and trains and buses, all very well priced. India has a plethora of ways to get from A to B for those that care to look.

And if you don't, then basically you will pay a whole lot more than you need to. Your choice.

Guess I don't get it, really.

Excellent advice, by everyone especially Cicerone. We picked up a car and driver in Agra for the trip to Jaipur. Wherever we were and needed drivers we got them on the spot.

Check out www.Indiamike.com for some good information on India travel.

It is a fabulous country and you can travel in great style without spending a fortune.

Thank you all for the good advice. I did think my original plan was a lot of driving, but was afraid of taking the train (finding the right train, buying the tickets, dealing with swarms of people at the stations). Am I being silly thinking the trains would be a challenge? We are 2 women traveling on our own. We have traveled outside the US a few times and I do all the planning. I'm sorry if my post wasn't very clear, the cost for 2 from Kumar was $3570 and from Smile India was $2798. I try to travel with a moderate budget. I will replan my trip with all your good advice. Thanks again. Diane

Dilen= to schedule the train, go to Indiamike.com and look for their transporetation page. It has links to the Indian rail site and domestic airlines and info on how to use and book them. If you need descriptions of the different classes of train travel try http://www.seat61.com/India.htm

The airlines are easy to book online, but I have always had trouble with the payment section, so if you do then get the info on which train you want, and ask one of your hotels to do the purchase for you. You'll know the fares, and the hotel will tell you their service charge.

Getting cars for daily travel is easy, but I highly recommmend Narender if he's available.

Good luck!

Travelling by train is fine, but I only book myself for first class A/C.

You have to figure out which mode of transportation is the most effective depending on where you need to go.

The stations can be a little overwhelming, but there's enough people there to direct you to your platform.

Check timetables to make sure you don't take the train that stops at every fencepost along the way.

Look for express trains that have the fewest stops such as SHATABDI and RAJDHANI.

Or ladies: fly.

www.flykingfisher.com

You can fly Delhi/Agra - Rs 3652
Agra/Jaipur [direct] - Rs 4460
Jaipur/Delhi - Rs 4105
Delhi/Varanasi - Rs 4720
Varanasi/Delhi - Rs 4720

Total: Rs 21,657 = US$453

If you must go to Khaj: Varanasi/Khajuraho/Varanasi - Rs 11,715 = US$245

So why sit in a car? Why hassle with a train? If you're nervous, fly. AND regain about five days of your holiday you'd spend travelling otherwise.

To me, it's a no-brainer.

Very impressive Dogster. You are destined to be a tour guide in your next life - LOL. (I'm just teasing, we love you as you are).

I think you may be overestimating the “difficulties” you will encounter in rail stations and on trains in India, and IMO you should take a deep breath and rethink using them. In the first place Indian train stations are IMO the most fascinating people-watching in the world, and everyone who goes to India should experience at least one. Yes, they can be chaotic and noisy, but they are also extremely colourful as the whole panoply of Indians religions and regions pass before you. Really, sit for an hour and all of India will walk by. And also, it is really Delhi’s train station that is the largest of all on your itin, Jaipur, Agra and Jhansi are quite manageable.

The main thing you need to learn to do is use a firm “no” to anyone who offers to help you with your bags. It’s not that they will steal them, its that anyone who touches them expects you to pay them something. Pick one guy (or two if you have a lot of bags) and then just wave off all others firmly. Or use a hotel car and get the driver to help you get a porter. That to me is the hardest part of negotiating the whole train station experience. (A good porter will get you to the right train and to the right seat, show him your ticket.) Once on board, really no worries, esp for the short journeys you have to deal with. On the arrival end, you will be inundated with offers to carry your bags, again pick someone and then be ruthless with the “no”. (But you need to learn to do this for airports too, its just that there are more offers at train stations.) And don’t worry if the guy who takes your bags heads off the where you can’t see him, he has gone to get your taxi or meet your hotel car, just follow along. Your bags are safe. This is not Penn Station NYC.

You can alleviate some difficulty by either (i) buying tickets on line, or (2) asking your hotel to get them for you (I generally do the latter). As soon as you have a hotel reserved and know the trains you would want, you can contact the hotel and ask them to get tickets for you. (I like faxing but e-mail can also work.) Your Delhi hotel may be able to get ALL the tickets for you, as Delhi is such a central station. Otherwise, contact each hotel in a departure city and ask them to arrange for tickets. But if you want to do this on your own, Indiamike.com mentioned above is quite helpful with helping you understand trains and making bookings on line. Things like the Shatabdi Express to Agra are very popular and should be booked in advance, and if are also traveling at a popular time of year (like from now through mid-April), while it may be unnecessary, it may be a good idea to go ahead and buy all your tickets ahead of time. Most are refundable/exchangeable if your plans change, and really the fares are quite reasonable that if you don’t use the ticket, you may not even bother to return it.

First class or its equivalent is usually the way to go (&quot;executive class&quot; &quot;AC Chair&quot; or &quot;CC&quot;), esp. for short hops, although 2nd class is fine too; my only concern would be that seats may not be reserved/assigned for 2nd class trains, so on popular ones, IMO you are better off going with reserved seat classes. (Some people say they want to travel 2nd class or lower classes to meet “locals’; but my view is that the guy sitting next to me on the Shatabdi going to Jhansi to do the books for his cement company is also a “real local” too, and those people are just as interesting, don’t short change them. Lots of Indians travel first class to go on religious pilgrimages too, don’t kid yourself: I have a client who has himself chauffer-driven in his Merc every third Sunday, 4 hours each way, to make a Puja in the desert. He stays at the Amanbagh overnight. This is in thanks for his business success. It’s not just the poor in India who are deeply religious and observant. One may be sitting next to you on the next train.)

I am a women myself and often travel alone in India where I be going for work and pleasure for more than 10 yhears and have never had an unpleasant epxeirnece. While crime does occur, as do assaults against women (and owmen travelers) it is rare and I would say rarer in India statisicaly than mosst other places. Of coue take sensivle precatusiont with purse and wallet like you weould anywhere (including if you were in an Indian airport). If you encounter any issues with aggressive men, shout loudly and make yourself known, and you will find yourself surrounded by <i>other</i> Indians who will shame the guy much better than you could. (Shame being alive and well in India; moreover you are a guest in their country and they will be outraged that a guest is subjected to such treatment.)

While I usually agree with dogster’s advice, I have to say that I am not an advocate of taking flights for such short distances; moreover if your trip is from now through about the end of January, I would not recommend it for north India when fog delays are <i>very</i> common in Delhi and Agra. I would limit flights to the extent possible during those periods. But most importantly, for short hops, by the time you get out to Delhi airport, get into the airport (always a palaver), check-in, and get through security (a bigger palaver), take off (hopefully on time), land and get from the airport to your hotel, in most cases for those short distances you would <i>already be</i> there if you had taken the train. Certainly for Agra, which is 2 hours by the Shatabdi. It’s almost hour alone from central New Delhi <i>just to the airport</i> (without traffic). And Indian airports are only slightly less chaotic than Indian train stations, and if you fly economy, their check-in counters can be <i>more</i> chaotic.

If you fly, Kingfisher is the best choice, business class if you can just to avoid the crazy check-in lines and get better service if you miss connections, etc. Jet is also very good. Avoid Indian Air.

Isn't cicerone amazing. I think She and I should go into business - I'll be the hot-head, lateral thinker, she can be the calm, cool, pragmatic, smart, realist half of the partnership. She's right - but so am I.

The answer lies somewhere in between.

I put in my suggestion bearing in mind that these ladies are nervous about trains - and to give a lateral solution to the problem. Everybody else is locking in on cars and trains - eh - time for an alternative.

I'm sure all the people in here will have an opinion on the 'wow' factor driving Agra - Jaipur. Err - I don't remember much 'wow'.

Next time I wanna do that, I'll be flying. No problem. I'm sure it's really great getting up at 4.30 a.m. to catch the train to Agra at 6.00 a.m. Well, that's for you... heh.

Yup, six of one - half a dozen of the other on travel times. Yup - fog. Yup - people watching - amazing. But I sense fear in these ladies. And that's pretty normal for a first-timer to India. So it's great that cicerone and others try to mitigate that fear. They are absolutely correct.

But, if I was a first time traveller to India and someone dropped me at Delhi station with my bags and an enouraging smile - I'd just sink to my knees and sob. It's not easy.

You are all corect - it's the very ESSENCE of India - but, you know, there's a lot of people in here who really would prefer to see their essence through glass, with the window wound up and a tour guide holding their hand. I think it's a crap way to see India - so do you - but I reckon the vast majority of first timers to India do exactly that. I know they're missing out - you know that - but that's what they want. Thru fear maybe - but that doesn't matter. So, I'm just trying to take that into account.

But cicerone - I just want to say that your posts are truly magnificent and put my canine babblings to shame.

dogster, thank you for the kind words (almost makes up for that dreaded Peter N H who once libeled me on this board by claiming that Fodors had banned me from posting), and I return them to you, <i>”kimabli”</i>, as the Indonesians and Malays say.

I agree that the OP is nervous. <i>I also think that we both agree that she should not be</i>. I think tour agencies (and some guidebooks) try to instill fear into travelers that India is “difficult” in hopes that they will join tours and hire drivers rather than traveling independently. They do the same for China (and I think China is a harder place to travel, as language is more of an issue in the remote areas, esp signage and announcements on trains, etc. Not the case in India.)

I have to say that I <i>never</i> like arriving by train in Naples station. I keep a tight grip on my bags and my wits. Compared to that, any Indian train station really does not seem difficult to me. And I just would not even consider going by train between say Capetown and Johannesburg (I’m not even crazy about the idea of J-burg airport), although I am sure there are plenty of posters who would pooh-pooh my fears in that respect. So, I am not entirely without fear in traveling. It’s just that I don’t see India as one of the places to fear.

I really appreciate all your comments and advice. I have decided to book 3 nights hotel in Delhi and see what I can find there for the rest of my trip. Yes, I am a little fearful (afraid of the unknown) but things always seem to work out wherever I go. I will not stress out about this, just be careful and take it for the adventure it will be. Thanks again and I will post a trip report upon my return in mid December.