Help me make a logical itinerary in Laos and Cambodia
Dec 26th, 2015, 04:44 PM
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Help me make a logical itinerary in Laos and Cambodia
I need help with logistics on a trip that I am trying to pull together at the last minute for about 5 to 6 weeks in mid January to mid February. We’ll fly from the US to BKK roundtrip and don’t have any real desire to see Bangkok but might want a day of downtime there before moving on. Still haven't purchased tickets but have been watching them for a while now. I'd also looked at Hong Kong and Singapore. BKK seems most logical since all round trip tickets are about the same price. Also, I can use ground transportation to get between Thailand and Laos.
My plan is to visit both Cambodia and Laos, starting in the south in Cambodia and then move up through Laos from the south to the north. I want to avoid the worst of the heat, and assume I’d do this by putting Cambodia at the start of the trip and Laos at the end; maybe I am wrong though. In addition, I also am aware that burning could be a problem in some places.
In Cambodia I am thinking about Angkor Wat, Battamberg, Phnom Penh, the southern coastal area where Kep, Koh Kong and Kampot are. And, perhaps the Kratie area.
In Laos I am thinking about Vientiane, Luang Prabang, the 4000 islands, Savannakhet, Champasak area, Nong Khiaw and the Nam Ou River, Luang Namtha area, and Tham Kong Lor (cave).
Now that I see this basic list of places I’m interested in, I see that as usual I am going to have to cull some things. Should this be two entirely separate trips, or will I be able to do what I want in the time I have?
This is what I have figured out so far in regards to itinerary and transportation. We could fly from Bangkok to either Siem Reap or Phnom Penh to begin our tour of Cambodia. As I understand it, I can take an overnight train between Bangkok and Nong Khai which is close to Vientaine. I believe I could also go from Bangkok to Chiang Rai and from that area cross into Laos for a boat trip to Luang Prabang. Would one of these options be a good way to get one way to Bangkok to end our trip?
As far as transportation options, we’re older and can spend money on transportation options that will make our trip more enjoyable. We’re okay with a few not-too- long bus trips on nicer buses. We can afford to pay for a private driver when it makes sense and if it isn’t too horribly expensive. We are willing to take some flights but don’t want to overdo this. Some boat journeys would be interesting, and I for sure want to do the two day boat trip between Luang Prabang and Houayxai.
A really big question I have is where and how best to cross from Cambodia into Laos.
Can anyone help me put all of this together in a coherent itinerary? Sorry for the long post and many questions. If you have suggestions, I’d really appreciate them. Also, let me know if there are must-see places I’ve missed or so-so places I’ve included.
My plan is to visit both Cambodia and Laos, starting in the south in Cambodia and then move up through Laos from the south to the north. I want to avoid the worst of the heat, and assume I’d do this by putting Cambodia at the start of the trip and Laos at the end; maybe I am wrong though. In addition, I also am aware that burning could be a problem in some places.
In Cambodia I am thinking about Angkor Wat, Battamberg, Phnom Penh, the southern coastal area where Kep, Koh Kong and Kampot are. And, perhaps the Kratie area.
In Laos I am thinking about Vientiane, Luang Prabang, the 4000 islands, Savannakhet, Champasak area, Nong Khiaw and the Nam Ou River, Luang Namtha area, and Tham Kong Lor (cave).
Now that I see this basic list of places I’m interested in, I see that as usual I am going to have to cull some things. Should this be two entirely separate trips, or will I be able to do what I want in the time I have?
This is what I have figured out so far in regards to itinerary and transportation. We could fly from Bangkok to either Siem Reap or Phnom Penh to begin our tour of Cambodia. As I understand it, I can take an overnight train between Bangkok and Nong Khai which is close to Vientaine. I believe I could also go from Bangkok to Chiang Rai and from that area cross into Laos for a boat trip to Luang Prabang. Would one of these options be a good way to get one way to Bangkok to end our trip?
As far as transportation options, we’re older and can spend money on transportation options that will make our trip more enjoyable. We’re okay with a few not-too- long bus trips on nicer buses. We can afford to pay for a private driver when it makes sense and if it isn’t too horribly expensive. We are willing to take some flights but don’t want to overdo this. Some boat journeys would be interesting, and I for sure want to do the two day boat trip between Luang Prabang and Houayxai.
A really big question I have is where and how best to cross from Cambodia into Laos.
Can anyone help me put all of this together in a coherent itinerary? Sorry for the long post and many questions. If you have suggestions, I’d really appreciate them. Also, let me know if there are must-see places I’ve missed or so-so places I’ve included.
Dec 26th, 2015, 05:15 PM
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One things stands out for me, the water levels in the Mekong at that time of year being the end of the dry season.
You might be better off going downstream ie. Chiang Khong to Luang Prabang, means the boat is not working against the current and you get more time at villages stops.
I'd check availability of boats as soon as flights are arranged. I think we booked several months out and had to change some other timings to fit in with the date we could get.
You might be better off going downstream ie. Chiang Khong to Luang Prabang, means the boat is not working against the current and you get more time at villages stops.
I'd check availability of boats as soon as flights are arranged. I think we booked several months out and had to change some other timings to fit in with the date we could get.
Dec 26th, 2015, 08:36 PM
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I have not traveled as extensively in this region as other posters here, but I did want to offer my two cents about three places you mentioned.
First, I thought Battambang, Cambodia was fascinating. I used a wonderful tuk tuk driver named Bun:
https://battambangtours.wordpress.com/contact/
He spent a tireless day taking me all over the region, and he even drove me to the wonderful circus that night. I asked him to take me to a historic house that I had researched, and I used my high school French to communicate with the owner. It turns out that her husband and most of her children were killed by Pol Pot.
Second, I think you will enjoy Vientiane. It's a wonderful city with great food, and nice walking tours. It's chic, but not pretentious.
Third, I was quite disappointed with Luang Prabang. There are certainly enough temples there to intrigue you, but the place was almost all tourists, and there was no local flavor. I think one full day of sightseeing is enough there, as it is quite small.
And required reading for Cambodia is:
"First They Killed My Father" by Loung Ung
First, I thought Battambang, Cambodia was fascinating. I used a wonderful tuk tuk driver named Bun:
https://battambangtours.wordpress.com/contact/
He spent a tireless day taking me all over the region, and he even drove me to the wonderful circus that night. I asked him to take me to a historic house that I had researched, and I used my high school French to communicate with the owner. It turns out that her husband and most of her children were killed by Pol Pot.
Second, I think you will enjoy Vientiane. It's a wonderful city with great food, and nice walking tours. It's chic, but not pretentious.
Third, I was quite disappointed with Luang Prabang. There are certainly enough temples there to intrigue you, but the place was almost all tourists, and there was no local flavor. I think one full day of sightseeing is enough there, as it is quite small.
And required reading for Cambodia is:
"First They Killed My Father" by Loung Ung
Dec 26th, 2015, 09:27 PM
#4
I am another fan of Battambang (don't miss the Bamboo Express, or a motor bike ride through the countryside), and of the Cambodian coast.
I have also enjoyed PP, which people often skip, and Vientiane, ditto. WRT LP, when I first went in 2002, it was quite magical. When I went back in 2004 it was still magical, but I thought the writing was on the wall. When I went back in early 2011 I was disappointed. However, for someone who was going for the first time I think it would still be enjoyable. (See: https://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com...luang-prabang/ )
I have taken the train between BKK and Nong Khai several times. I enjoy second class on Thai trains, as the berths are parallel to the sides of the carriages, with curtains. However, with two of you it probably makes sense to go first class. Do book, though, I once wound up in third class traveling from Malaysia to BKK - NOT recommended! I have only taken the train from Chiang Mai to BKK once, in 2002, but it was the same as the BKK to Nong Khai train. I would highly recommended a trip on the river (not just from LP to Pak Ou).
I have also enjoyed PP, which people often skip, and Vientiane, ditto. WRT LP, when I first went in 2002, it was quite magical. When I went back in 2004 it was still magical, but I thought the writing was on the wall. When I went back in early 2011 I was disappointed. However, for someone who was going for the first time I think it would still be enjoyable. (See: https://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com...luang-prabang/ )
I have taken the train between BKK and Nong Khai several times. I enjoy second class on Thai trains, as the berths are parallel to the sides of the carriages, with curtains. However, with two of you it probably makes sense to go first class. Do book, though, I once wound up in third class traveling from Malaysia to BKK - NOT recommended! I have only taken the train from Chiang Mai to BKK once, in 2002, but it was the same as the BKK to Nong Khai train. I would highly recommended a trip on the river (not just from LP to Pak Ou).
Dec 27th, 2015, 12:00 AM
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Firstly, I don't think that the average temps in Cambodia will change that much in the six weeks you have so I would not let that be a huge influence on your decision.
We have done the trip in both directions. Does it matter which way? In reality, probably not much, apart maybe from the the advent of the burning season and even in mid Feb you should be ok ( but no one can predict that with any degree of certainty). January would be fine.
The way I would probably go is to fly into Bangkok and transfer straight to Chiang Rai. It is an easy transfer from there to get the boat down to Luang Prabang with and overnight in Pakbeng. Luang Say cruises is the lux. option but we hired a large boat to ourselves. Not lux, but comfortable enough. Brought our own beers and the wife of the boat driver cooked for us. Can't recal the cost but it was a lot cheaper than Luang Say. Avoid the public boat and the speed boats!
I would then spend a day or two exploring LP before heading off for a tour of the far north - Luang Namtha, Nong Khiaw, Muang Sing, Phongsali etc. - maybe 5-7 days depending on your interest in ethnic minorlities, mountain and riverine scenery. ( my favourite part of Laos ).
Returning to LP you could then head south to Vientianne either by flying or by road via Vang Vieng (for the karst scenery )
Vientiane is fine for a day or two, some good restaurants, markets and temples.
Heading south you could fly to Pakse before heading down to Si Phan don (perhaps including a few days on the Bolavens plateau - wonderful scenery, waterfalls, coffee etc ) Wat Phu, the pr Angkor ruins are also en route to SPD and are close to Champassak.
We stayed on Don Khong which was very laid back and quiet. I would avoid Don Det which tends to be a bit of party place full of young backers feastin on "happy pizza". Also possible to see some of the other islands from there and , if lucky, the rare Irrawaddy Dolphins.
It is a relatively easy process to cross the border into Cambodia and on to Kratie. Really liked Kratie. It is a pleasant riverside town, lots of markets, what's etc. And some nice places to stay. The alternative to overland travel is to return to Vientiane ( unless you can find flights from Pakse.
Kratie, much as I love the place, really only makes sense if coming overland fro Lao. Otherwise, I would stick with the towns you have mentioned. I guess Angkor must be on everyone's Cambodia but I have to say it was not a pleasant visit on our last trip. Very overcrowded and many of the temples were covered in scaffolding etc. And seemed to be in a state of decline compared with our last visit.
Public transport in Cambodia is lottery. Private car and drivers are reasonable and will save time and enable you to see more. We found a lot of very good mid range hotels around the country. A marked improvement from previous visits.
Depending on how you get into Cambodia, PP-SR-Battambang-PP-Kampot--Kep is a fairly easy itinerary in therms of getting around.
We have done the trip in both directions. Does it matter which way? In reality, probably not much, apart maybe from the the advent of the burning season and even in mid Feb you should be ok ( but no one can predict that with any degree of certainty). January would be fine.
The way I would probably go is to fly into Bangkok and transfer straight to Chiang Rai. It is an easy transfer from there to get the boat down to Luang Prabang with and overnight in Pakbeng. Luang Say cruises is the lux. option but we hired a large boat to ourselves. Not lux, but comfortable enough. Brought our own beers and the wife of the boat driver cooked for us. Can't recal the cost but it was a lot cheaper than Luang Say. Avoid the public boat and the speed boats!
I would then spend a day or two exploring LP before heading off for a tour of the far north - Luang Namtha, Nong Khiaw, Muang Sing, Phongsali etc. - maybe 5-7 days depending on your interest in ethnic minorlities, mountain and riverine scenery. ( my favourite part of Laos ).
Returning to LP you could then head south to Vientianne either by flying or by road via Vang Vieng (for the karst scenery )
Vientiane is fine for a day or two, some good restaurants, markets and temples.
Heading south you could fly to Pakse before heading down to Si Phan don (perhaps including a few days on the Bolavens plateau - wonderful scenery, waterfalls, coffee etc ) Wat Phu, the pr Angkor ruins are also en route to SPD and are close to Champassak.
We stayed on Don Khong which was very laid back and quiet. I would avoid Don Det which tends to be a bit of party place full of young backers feastin on "happy pizza". Also possible to see some of the other islands from there and , if lucky, the rare Irrawaddy Dolphins.
It is a relatively easy process to cross the border into Cambodia and on to Kratie. Really liked Kratie. It is a pleasant riverside town, lots of markets, what's etc. And some nice places to stay. The alternative to overland travel is to return to Vientiane ( unless you can find flights from Pakse.
Kratie, much as I love the place, really only makes sense if coming overland fro Lao. Otherwise, I would stick with the towns you have mentioned. I guess Angkor must be on everyone's Cambodia but I have to say it was not a pleasant visit on our last trip. Very overcrowded and many of the temples were covered in scaffolding etc. And seemed to be in a state of decline compared with our last visit.
Public transport in Cambodia is lottery. Private car and drivers are reasonable and will save time and enable you to see more. We found a lot of very good mid range hotels around the country. A marked improvement from previous visits.
Depending on how you get into Cambodia, PP-SR-Battambang-PP-Kampot--Kep is a fairly easy itinerary in therms of getting around.
Dec 27th, 2015, 06:40 AM
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I read Ung's book quite a few years ago and also irts sequel "Lucky Child". Another good book, though it is classified as YA, is "Never Fall Down" by Patricia McCormick which is base on the true story of a young man who survived the regime and then came to the US.
I am going to get out my maps and try to figure out how the trip would work with all of your suggestions to start in the north and work our way down. I am a little leery of the heat since we had a trip to Kerala last year where our decisions on where to go became based on locales we thought we could find that wouldn't be so hot.
How do Thai trains compare to Indian trains? We always do 1AC or 2AC on those.
I never thought about water levels but had read that there are many fewer passengers on the upstream legs vs the downstream. I have looked at boats though and see that there are a couple mid-range companies--Shompoo, Smile and Nagi. We'll probably opt for one of these rather than the luxury cruise or the cheap backpacker boats. Or, perhaps hire our own boat as crellston suggests. I am also interested in the boat trips that go out of Nong Khiaw so would want time for that too.
As far as the cities like Battamberg, Vientiane and Luang Prabang, we also want to have time to explore the surrounding countryside. On the motorbike rides through the country are these behind someone else or rent and drive yourself? We did the rent and drive perhaps five years ago in Nicaragua since my husband does know how to drive one of these (I don't).
Does anyone have any thoughts about how difficult it would be to start out the trip with reservations and then move into winging it mode? This is kind of our choice because of the flexibility it gives, but it also depends on good internet service and I don't know about availability in Laos and Cambodia.
It would definitely be Don Khong for us since we are not partiers and want a nice, quiet place to sleep.
crellston--are there semi-decent mid-range places to stay up in the north of Laos too, or are these pretty much low end guesthouses? We are not top-end travelers and have done our fair share of staying in not-so-great places, but we have also come to the conclusion that our days of hiking into a village and camping out on someone's straw bed have ended. We'd prefer mid-range to backpacker special guesthouse.
Last night we watched a couple episodes of "Samantha Brown's Asia"--the ones on Thailand and Cambodia. One of the most appealing places from the film was an area that we are not planning on visiting at all--the beaches at Krabi in Thailand. I'll admit the parts on Angkor Wat and its environs underwhelmed me, so we'll do it but don't know how much time we'll spend there. For us the environs and general ambience of a place are as important as the site itself. We may just opt to see some of the smaller, less-touristed temples rather than all of the biggies. We've often found that we much prefer the lesser-known sites to all of the biggie top ten listed places.
Thanks a lot to all of you. And, any more thoughts, please keep them coming.
I am going to get out my maps and try to figure out how the trip would work with all of your suggestions to start in the north and work our way down. I am a little leery of the heat since we had a trip to Kerala last year where our decisions on where to go became based on locales we thought we could find that wouldn't be so hot.
How do Thai trains compare to Indian trains? We always do 1AC or 2AC on those.
I never thought about water levels but had read that there are many fewer passengers on the upstream legs vs the downstream. I have looked at boats though and see that there are a couple mid-range companies--Shompoo, Smile and Nagi. We'll probably opt for one of these rather than the luxury cruise or the cheap backpacker boats. Or, perhaps hire our own boat as crellston suggests. I am also interested in the boat trips that go out of Nong Khiaw so would want time for that too.
As far as the cities like Battamberg, Vientiane and Luang Prabang, we also want to have time to explore the surrounding countryside. On the motorbike rides through the country are these behind someone else or rent and drive yourself? We did the rent and drive perhaps five years ago in Nicaragua since my husband does know how to drive one of these (I don't).
Does anyone have any thoughts about how difficult it would be to start out the trip with reservations and then move into winging it mode? This is kind of our choice because of the flexibility it gives, but it also depends on good internet service and I don't know about availability in Laos and Cambodia.
It would definitely be Don Khong for us since we are not partiers and want a nice, quiet place to sleep.
crellston--are there semi-decent mid-range places to stay up in the north of Laos too, or are these pretty much low end guesthouses? We are not top-end travelers and have done our fair share of staying in not-so-great places, but we have also come to the conclusion that our days of hiking into a village and camping out on someone's straw bed have ended. We'd prefer mid-range to backpacker special guesthouse.
Last night we watched a couple episodes of "Samantha Brown's Asia"--the ones on Thailand and Cambodia. One of the most appealing places from the film was an area that we are not planning on visiting at all--the beaches at Krabi in Thailand. I'll admit the parts on Angkor Wat and its environs underwhelmed me, so we'll do it but don't know how much time we'll spend there. For us the environs and general ambience of a place are as important as the site itself. We may just opt to see some of the smaller, less-touristed temples rather than all of the biggies. We've often found that we much prefer the lesser-known sites to all of the biggie top ten listed places.
Thanks a lot to all of you. And, any more thoughts, please keep them coming.
Dec 27th, 2015, 06:52 AM
#7
Second class on Thai trains is a definite improvement over 2AC on Indian trains. Fewer people per carriage and more privacy (individual curtains), although, of course, 1AC in India has fewer people still. Can't speak to first on Thai trains, but there are two person compartments.
See: http://www.seat61.com/Thailand.htm#On_board_Thai_trains
I found I needed several days for the temples at Angkor Wat, but I was there in 2002 and 2004, and it sounds like it is much more crowded now. My first visit was an evening plus two days, and I went back in 2004 for four more days. There is quite a bit of variation between the temples. I will echo Kathie and recommend reading Dawn Rooney's "Angkor" to get a feel for how long you might want.
See: http://www.seat61.com/Thailand.htm#On_board_Thai_trains
I found I needed several days for the temples at Angkor Wat, but I was there in 2002 and 2004, and it sounds like it is much more crowded now. My first visit was an evening plus two days, and I went back in 2004 for four more days. There is quite a bit of variation between the temples. I will echo Kathie and recommend reading Dawn Rooney's "Angkor" to get a feel for how long you might want.
Dec 28th, 2015, 08:40 AM
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I just want to double check with those of you with experience in the area. We could fly or take the train to Chiang Rai, and from there it is easy to get to the boat landing. Correct? Discount airline flights look quite reasonable priced so am wondering whether it is worth it to take the train.
crellston--In addition the couple questions I have above, can you please fill me in on how to cross to the Kratie area from Laos.
Thank you.
crellston--In addition the couple questions I have above, can you please fill me in on how to cross to the Kratie area from Laos.
Thank you.
Dec 28th, 2015, 08:49 AM
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It is a while since I have been to the far north but there are some decent places around particularly in Luang Namtha and Nong Kiaw. The Boat Landing in Luang Namtha springs to mind - http://www.selectiveasia.com/laos-ho...ouse#&panel1-1 www.travelfish.org also has some useful info on places to stay.
Sartoric makes a very good point re the water levels. Wasn't a problem when we visited but since then the Thais (and possibly others) have been building dams across the Mekong so that may have had an effect on water levels already. I know that the Vietnamese are very concerned about the effects much further south in the Mekong Delta. Now may well be the time to go to northern Laos!
Another thought is an alternative, or an addition, to Angkor Wat is Koh Ker. About 120kms north of Siem Reap it get s relatively few visitors and is apparently quite spectacular (although unrestored). It was our plan to go there on our last visit but events conspired against us and we had to return to Bangkok unexpectedly. As I recall the seven candles guesthouse ( of Ponheary Ly Foundation fame) in SR had links with a young Cambodian couple who were organising trips there.
Sartoric makes a very good point re the water levels. Wasn't a problem when we visited but since then the Thais (and possibly others) have been building dams across the Mekong so that may have had an effect on water levels already. I know that the Vietnamese are very concerned about the effects much further south in the Mekong Delta. Now may well be the time to go to northern Laos!
Another thought is an alternative, or an addition, to Angkor Wat is Koh Ker. About 120kms north of Siem Reap it get s relatively few visitors and is apparently quite spectacular (although unrestored). It was our plan to go there on our last visit but events conspired against us and we had to return to Bangkok unexpectedly. As I recall the seven candles guesthouse ( of Ponheary Ly Foundation fame) in SR had links with a young Cambodian couple who were organising trips there.
Dec 28th, 2015, 10:52 AM
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I'd fly to CR, there's a few interesting places to see, don't miss The Black House.
From there it was about an hour by car to Chiang Khong. We stayed the night in CK because the boat departs quite early. It's easy to organise transport on the fly in most of SE Asia.
From there it was about an hour by car to Chiang Khong. We stayed the night in CK because the boat departs quite early. It's easy to organise transport on the fly in most of SE Asia.
Dec 29th, 2015, 08:54 AM
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We've now done three extended India trips. The first I had all my transportation with drivers lined up pretty much ahead of time. The second, I had one driver pre-arranged. The third I arranged transport once we were on the ground.
It is sounding like Laos and Cambodia will work out just fine for people like us who have now realized we can arrange things on the fly at the last minute.
I am assuming in most places I can probably also arrange lodging only a day or two ahead of time.
It is sounding like Laos and Cambodia will work out just fine for people like us who have now realized we can arrange things on the fly at the last minute.
I am assuming in most places I can probably also arrange lodging only a day or two ahead of time.
