Help - Japan travel too expensive!!
 

We are booked for Japan from 3/20-4/2 (Kansai airport). Daughter & husband live in Tenri (for 6 mo.). Our daughter just wants to tour locally, Tenri, Nara, Kyoto & says we shouldn't get JR pass cause with them needing to pay regular fare it would be really expensive for their regular fares & our rail pass i.e. Hiroshima $226/ea round trip for them. We would pay their fare & yes it would get to be too expensive for us. The main reason for going to Japan is because we miss our daughter, but after doing about a 40hr. round trip expensive flight we'd really like to see a couple of other things too since this would be our only trip to Japan. A couple of places we'd like to see/do are the trolley ride through Kurobe valley, cliffs of Tojimbo, Shirakawago (I think these are in same area?), Hiroshima, & maybe Tottori & Takayama. Can anyone suggest a cheaper plan and/or route where we can get to as many of these as possible? Are car rentals out of the question there & why? We've driven on the left with very narrow roads in Ireland, if that's the only problem.

If your daughter doesn't have a car, then a rental might be something to consider. We've found the the train is cost effective when one person is travelling alone paying regular price. Driving our own car is cheaper when there are 2 people. With 3 people or more, I would venture a guess that a rental car and tolls and gas and everything else would be cheaper than full fare train. Rentals typically start at about 8000 yen/day including insurance. You will need an international driver's license to drive in Japan, available from AAA in the states. If your daughter has a car and she has been in Japan for more than a year, then she must have a Japanese license, not an international one.

Driving is easy in Japan I think...or for me it is. If you give yourself extra time and don't worry too much about being lost, it's no trouble. When my parents visited 8 years ago, we drove from Kanazawa to Osaka to meet them, back to Kanazawa. Then back to Osaka again and Kyoto, then to Hiroshima and back to Kanazawa. Also from Kanazawa to Takayama and Shirakawa-go. No trouble. It was the same time of year as well.

Should you decide to rent, you can just walk in...you don't need to worry about reservations.

There are also buses, which are about half the price of trains, and take roughly 1 1/2 times the time. You might want to consider them.

There are also rail passes available to residents that she might not know about. A trip to the JR station travel agency - JTB or similar - might be a good idea for her. You've got to buy your JR passes before leaving for Japan, so she should investigate local passes for herself soon, as well as the price of renting a car. There are numerous packages too, which can include train/plane/bus and hotel and/or car rental at destinatio that offer a significant savings over individual tickets and hotels that the local travel agent will be able to advise her on. It might very well end up cheaper in the long run to get a couple of the packages with transport and hotel (these aren't tours, just pack deals) than it would be to have 2 JR passes, 2 people without passes, plus individually booked hotels. It will take some work to find the most cost effective way for all of you to travel around a bit, but it should be possible for you to enjoy some good sightseeing for less than break-the-bank prices.

Thanks for the quick response Kim. Anyone know what the approximate driving time to these areas would be?
Also, anymore opinions or ideas would be appreciated.

Osaka to Hiroshima took us just under 5 hours...should take less but we were stuck in bad traffic on the highway for about 2 of those hours...if I remember correctly the toll was around 10,000 yen each way. Osaka to Kanazawa...between 3 and 4 hours, depends on traffic and your driving speed...toll is about 7000 yen each way. Kanazawa to Shirakawa-go..one hour. Kanazawa to Takayama...2 1/2 hours. Shirakawa-go to Takayama...2 hours. Taking local trains between Osaka and Kyoto and Nara is more practical than driving due to traffic and parking fees.

You can generally calculate trips taking about 1 hour per 100 km on highway and 3 hour per 100 km off highways. When we drive to Nagoya, getting out of Kanazawa and onto the highway takes 30 minutes, and getting from the exit in Nagoya to downtown takes about 30 minutes, with no traffic. The highway drive is only about 2 1/2 hours (or less if you drive fast) but we always bank on 4 hours for the trip door to door.

Ann, I'm just wondering what kind of itinerary you are considering, how long you are planning to stay in the places you are interested in. I suppose you would want to spend a few days at your daughter's place? Would they be travelling with you to the places other than Hiroshima? How long in Hiroshima? I am wondering if you are budgeting based on a 7-day or 14-day JR Pass.

There is a 20,000 yen 4-day pass that all four of you could use (20,000 each) for the trip to Hiroshima. There are a few other passes for the Kyoto/Osaka area that might be useful.

Figuring a trip to Hiroshima would be a 3 day rental at 8000/day, that's 24000. Five hours at 60mph (100kph) is 300 miles, so say 600 miles roundtrip. That would be about 24 gallons of gas. I'll guess that's 6000 yen. That's 30,000 for the car plus 20,000 in tolls that Kim mentioned comes to 50,000. You'd have parking charges in Hiroshima and maybe insurance, but you'd probably come out ahead with a car vs 4 on a train.

But, good golly, 8000 yen a day for a rental car!

8000 yen a day isn't bad when you consider it includes insurance. I'm renting a car in Florida next month for 3 days and while the rental fee is cheap (about 40 dollars/day) the insurance is killer, and I have no option but to purchase it as a. I don't have a car in the states that has insurance - actually I don't have a car in the states at all :) b. the insurance that comes with Amex cards or other VISA/MC plans is only good for US residents, which I am not c. my Japanese insurance does not cover me outside of Japan. Total price for my 3 day rental is $342.00 with insurance...over $100.00/day - makes 8000 yen/day all inclusive look pretty good. If anyone can find a better deal on a car out of Tampa with insurance (full collision and liability)...

The 20,000 yen pass might well be a good deal for you...depends on your destinations and how much travelling you'll actually do. Parking overnight in a hotel parking lot costs us 1300/yen per 24 hours at the Nagoya Hilton. Other hotels are similar in price for parking in my experience. Hourly parking on the other hand runs high...bank on 400 yen/hour in hourly parking lots near stations and tourist attractions.

Ann_S,
I searched for Japanese Highway Navigator.
Here below are toll, distance and hours, one way.

Tenri -> Hiroshima
Toll: 8200 yen
Distance: 371.8 km
Hours: 4 h 40 min

Tenri -> Tojinbo
6500 yen
275 km
3h30

Tojinbo -> Shirakawago
3450 yen
136 km
1h42

Shirakawago -> Kurobe
3000 yen
112 km
1h25min

Kurobe -> Takayama
3650 yen
169 km
2h35

Takayama -> Tenri
7450 yen
327 km
4h

8000 yen a day car,
then I think 1000 yen p 100km for gas.

Wow, you guys are so great to take all this time to research this for me! If the previous estimates are accurate, I'm approximating that round trip to Hiroshima it would be $164 tolls, $74 gas (744mi). If the way framboise broke down the other part of the trip is the right progression, it would be $482 tolls, $100 gas (1019 mi.). I found a rental for $495/wk. Adding it all up & rounding up to allow for some parking fees, I total about $1400 US. I didn't include insurance cause if we charge the car rental, I think the credit card pays it. We also have AAA & American Family and they do cover some countries, haven't checked yet if Japan is one.
We had been looking at a 7 day JR pass, but I can't figure out what my daughter & her husband's fares would cost cause I'm having a hard time with the maps & figuring out a travel plan for the places besides Hiroshima. I hoping we'd only need one overnight in Hiroshima, & one or two, on the other part (Sorry, can't afford Hilton, but do want Western style). We don't have to do the temples, castles etc. on the way because we should be getting enough of that in the Nara/Kyoto area. Am I being unrealistic? I guess we wouldn't have to do all the places. If we have to leave some out, which would you guys suggest dropping?
I thought we would stay at my daughters the first few days, then travel outside the area, and finally stay at her place again for a few days before we leave. We should arrive the evening of 3/21 and fly out of Osaka late afternoon on 4/2.
Thanks again for all the help.............. any more will be greatly appreciated too. Ann_S

Ann_S,

it depends on the type of your car
but I think gas could cost $150 or such for over 1000 mile.

oops, I have just found, Kurobe trolley does not operate before April 20.

About eastern part of your trip,
driving would be far more convenient than taking trains,
while it is easy to access to Hiroshima from Kansai area
either by car or by trains.


If you travel by trains, you might drop Shirakawago, for it is
hard to access without a car.

Tojimbo's nearest station is JR Awara-onsen.
there take bus or taxi to Tojimbo, 15 min (4500 yen by taxi).
Some hotels have shuttle service to and from the station.

Takayama's nearest station is JR Takayama.


Here are search results using Japanese rail tripplanner.

Tenri -> Nara -> Kyoto -> Awara-onsen
3h

Awara-onsen -> Gifu -> Takayama
4h15

Takayama -> Nagoya -> Kyoto -> Nara -> Tenri
5h

Why don't you buy a railpass for your daughter and bring it to her. When I lived in japan for a year on the JET program and my husband came to visit, he brought me a pass. I had him take them both to be validated. I pretended not to speak Japanese, and pulled my paper work visa out of the passport. If your daughter lives there she should know how to work the system. All the foreigners living in Japan used to do this all the time with no problems.

The visa is stamped right into your passport pages. They are very strict checking for the proper tourist visa when using a JR pass for tourists. There are several passes available for residents however that she would be eligible for. The JR staff will be able to help her.

Hi, I'm back for more help. I want to first thank KimJapan, framboise, and others again for previous help on different post. Through many discussions with my family, it is now definite that we will take the trip to Hiroshima & Miyajima. Then on another jaunt, we would like to go to the cliffs of Tojimbo, Echizen-Ono (lighthouse on cliff & 400 yr. old market), and Kanazawa (Samouri, geisha district & 'ninja' place). We had also wanted to do the Tateyama-Kurobe Alpine Rt. but found out that it is closed till late April. Tottori sand dunes is too far from either route, I think. My family ruled out the car rental (too stressful) so we will be doing trains.

After doing some research, I found 2 rail passes that we can all use........ the Surutto Kansai pass and/or the Seishun Juhachi Kippu (Youthful 18 ticket). Each has different types of trains, busses, subways etc. that they're good for. As I explained before, we will be staying with my daughter in Tenri and spending about 6-7 days touring in the Kansai area. We should be seeing enough temples, castles, & gardens in that area, that's why we're not going to many of the other towns most people do on our 2 treks outside Kansai. (Sorry about skipping your town Kim). Anyway, I'm can't find a map that shows all the regions, prefectures, towns & different rail stations to figure out a route and check costs. If anyone can figure out the best route, could you help me with these questions.

1. My daughter & her husband would have to use one of the Kansai passes & then pay regular JR fares from the border town(?) of the Kansai district to Hiroshima and also from the Kansai area to the Kanazawa/Tojimbo destination. But, would my husband & I still do better with the JR pass bought in the states or doing the Kansai pass than reg. trains?

2. If we do the total JR pass, would my daughter still be able to ride the same trains/busses as us using the Kansai pass?

3. Anyone know which is better, the Seishun Juhachi Kippu or the Surutto Kansai pass? (They differ on types of transportation covered) We'll need one of these for the Kansai touring whether we buy a JR or not. (I found these on the japan-guide site, under free passes).

4. Anyone know of a train that still runs this time of yr. that would catch a bit of the beautiful scenery in this Alpine Rt. that we could hook up with when we go to Tojimbo?

5. Would we need 2 or 3 days to see the things I listed on the Kanazawa/Tojimbo trip.

6. Any reccomendations for western style, low-cost, clean hotels in Hiroshima area & Kanazawa?

I hope I haven't overwhelmed everyone with this long post. Even if you can only answer one of the questions, it will be greatly appreciated. We have less than 3 weeks before we go so I’m getting pretty frantic and desperate. Ann

Actually, I live in Kanazawa. You will enjoy Kanazawa a lot. I don't have tons of time right now, but if you click on my name you'll be able to find my old posts about Kanazawa,

In Kanazawa, either the APA Chuo hotel or the Tokyu Excel hotel is good. The thing about them is that you can only book the terrific internet rate online in Japanese. The English language site doesn't offer the option. The Japanese rate for each is under 10,000 yen per room, breakfast included for two people (meaning about 5000 yen per person). They are located in the downtown area, close to the sightseeing you want and shopping.

The Surutto Kansai pass should prove useful for your time in the Kansai area. The Seishun juhachi kippu is only for local and rapid trains. Don't let the term "rapid" fool you....it'll take you at least twice as long to cover the distance you'd be able to cover using express, limited express and/or shinkansen, which are not allowed on this pass.

If you had a JR pass for tourists, your daughter could certainly ride the same train as you if she is buying tickets. With a local market pass...depends on which pass. You might want to use hyperdia.com to see the routes you'd like to use, the fastest train's time and price, the local/rapid time and price (to see if you really want that kind of pass)...route it out, add it up, and see what works best for you in terms of time and money.

Here are a couple of links to JNTO pages that cover the area you are interested in. One says that the daffodils bloom "in riotous color" from Dec. to March at Echizen-misaki so you might catch that.

http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/RTP/Hokuriku/outline.html
http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/RTG/RI/chu...toujinbou.html
There are a few links on those pages that help.
Also, here is a three day tour in the region:
http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/RTP/Hokuriku/

So, Tottori is out. Rental car is out. Hiroshima, Tojimbo, and Kanazawa are in. How about Shirakawago and Takayama?

You and DH won't necessarily need either of the Kansai passes.

There is probably a map that you can use at www.jnto.go.jp It sounds like your itinerary is now:
Visit Osaka, Kyoto, Nara
Side trip to Hiroshima & Miyajima
Side trip to Kanazawa, Tojimbo
If that is it, then the geography is simple: to get from Hiroshima to Kanazawa you would go through Shin Osaka.

mrwunrfl... you said, "You and DH won't necessarily need either of the Kansai passes." Why not? I've been researching on the JNTO site for about a month. It's very good, but for some reason I can't get any of their maps to come up. From what I could tell on a regular map from the library, Tottori is out of the way from the other places we're going. I was hoping I was wrong and one of you would tell me that. The two side trips would be separate. Regarding the geography, I can't figure out what the last town in the Kansai area is, before we switch to non Kansai pass trains on our way to Hiroshima and then again on our way to Kanazwa. Also, when I put in Tojimbo on the hyperdia site, it says there is no station, so I don't know what to use.

Sorry KimJapan, I thought I read that you were from Shirakawago. The hotels sound good..... if they don't have to be booked too far ahead, we can get help to book it when we get there. The reason I was concerned about being able to ride the same trains was because the Surutto Kansai pass said no JR trains and if my daughter & her husband have that one & we have the JR pass..........? As I mentioned above, I'm not adverse to spending time working it out, it's just that the places I put in to hyperdia don't always work out. I also need to know the Kansai border towns in both directions in order to compare.

I'm still looking for reccomendations for western style, low-cost, clean hotels in the Hiroshima area and if there is a train that still runs this time of yr. that would catch at least a bit of the beautiful scenery in the Kurobe-Alpine Rt.

Thanks

Ok, I was suggesting that the Kansai passes would not be necessary because you could put the two side trips together. It is certainly possible (perhaps not to your liking, though) to visit Hiroshima, Miyajima, Kanazawa, and Tojimbo using a 7-day JR Pass.

You could add Tottori to that trip. It is a bit out of the way, but not that much. It is about an hour and a half from Hiroshima to Osaka. You can travel Hiroshima to Tottori in about two and a half hours. Tottori to Osaka is also about two and a half hours.

I will see if I can find info on the passes you mention. Please post a link to the japan-guide page. I believe that neither Tottori nor Kanazawa would be considered to be in the Kansai area. Neither would Hiroshima. The JR-West passes would do you no good. Their Kansai pass ends at Himeji,

The link I gave you for Tojimbo has info for getting there (the Keifuku train would be a non-JR train and cost would be additional to JR Pass). It says:

If you are coming from Osaka, take the JR Hokuriku Main Line for 1 hour and 55 minutes from Osaka Station to Fukui Station. Then take Keifuku Dentetsu Mikuniawara Line for 35 minutes from Fukui Station to Mikuni Station, and take Keifuku Bus for 15 minutes from Mikuni Station to Tojinbo.

I see that the Surutto pass goes as far west as Himeji:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2357_005.html
It doesn't go very far north of Kyoto so it would not be much use getting to Kanazawa. I see that this pass would be useful for travel in the Kansai area but not too useful for the Hiroshima and Kanazawa trips. You could use it to get from Tenri to Kyoto, I guess, and buy a JR ticket from there to Kanazawa (btw, after my first visit to Kanazawa I thought that the ride between there and Kyoto was very interesting as it went by Lake Biwa).

The Chugoku pass could be used for Hiroshima and Tottori. It goes as far east as Okayama. But the quickest routes I saw between Tottori and Hiroshima went via Himeji and used a shinkansen and limited express.

I just found that the Surutto Kansai pass says it's for the Kansai region. When I did a search on the region it said it includes the Fukui prefecture which takes me pretty close to Kanazawa. I just noticed though that it excludes all JR lines. Is there anywhere I can search routes and fares for non JR trains only? Ann

You would have to search in each private railway's site to get fares/times etc. if they don't come up on hyperdia. One thing you could try in hyperdia is unchecking all the boxes (air, shinkansen, jr, jr) and see what comes up.

The surutto pass may be useful in Kansai depending on how much you use it, but you can't ride JR trains. JR trains are useful, and tend to be more expensive and faster than private railways. With 4 people, you will find taxis quite cost effective for short trips between sites...it often costs less for even 2 people to share a taxi than to use the subway/bus...and taxis are much quicker and you don't have to spend the time wandering around stations and hunting for the sites...you just get dropped off there.

Honestly, I would skip the hassle of trying to figure out how to do so much on private lines...they can be very slow and don't go everywhere you want. Single tickets on the private lines aren't expensive in my experience. Get a 7 day JR pass for you and DH, buy tickets as needed for your daughter. The local train passes available may seem like a good deal, but you'll waste a lot of time riding local trains better spent sightseeing or enjoying a good meal. You'll save time, energy and hassle and enjoy your trip more.

Fukui prefecture is pretty far from Kanazawa actually...From Fukui city it's 40 minutes on the fastest train (just under 3000 yen) to Kanazawa, but Fukui prefecture extends much farther south than Fukui city. Plus, the surotto ticket that might get you to the edge of the prefecture doesn't get you on the JR lines anyway, so it will likely involve a complete change in station as well. JR is just so much easier and faster.

Alternatively, take the bus between Osaka and Hiroshima and Osaka/Kyoto and Kanazawa. About 1/2 the cost of train and 1 1/2 times the time.

Maybe this was the link where you saw Fukui shown as part of Kansai:
http://www.kippo.or.jp/

But the rail line map here:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2357_005.html
shows service to Otsu and Sanjo in the northeast part of the region. Otsu is 5 or 6 miles from Kyoto. Fukui-ken is about 25 miles north of Kyoto (and in the Chubu region). Fukui city is about 75 miles from Kyoto.

Well everyone, I'm really tired of all this hassle as I'm sure you are too..... As you know, it all started as an expense thing, paying for 4 people with only 2 eligible for a JR pass. Now it's because my husband & daughter both think we should come without the JR pass. They think it will be stressful because we'll let the 7 day time thing dictate our whole visit, when the most important thing is seeing each other after so long. Kim, like you said though, we're really going to get stressed out figuring out all the different local trains, etc. (and probably won't get to go where we want to). Besides, as close as I can figure, there probably won't be too much difference in cost anyway. I did try unchecking the boxes on hyperdia & it helped on one jaunt, but not the other. I just needed some research facts to back up my opinion. I don't want to leave the states without the pass cause there'll be no changing our minds once we get there. I just hope it's not too late to get the pass once (or should I say "if") I convince them. We're only 2 1/2 weeks from our departure!!

Is there a place where you can check the bus routes & fares like hyperdia?

You guys have been so helpful, thanks again.

Unfortunately, I've never seen anything official for bus routes in English. I have seen some general info on various info sites...and do know that bus from Kanazawa to Osaka/Kyoto/Nagoya takes about 4 hours and costs about 4000 yen (plus or minus a bit) each way per person and there are maybe 8 or so buses per day...if that helps at all.

Thanks for the idea on busses. I found a general site. It shows Kyoto to Hiroshima is 6600. http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2366.html
Unfortunately, the links that might show more detailed routes and fares are all in Japanese like you said. I know the obvious drawbacks to taking a bus vs. train like time, etc. Can you think of others I might not realize?

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mrwunrfl

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Seems like you've got conflicting priorities:
1) spend all time with daughter
2) see more of Japan
3) keep costs low

You can have two of those. Sounds to me like seeing more of Japan is a much lower priority to both your DD and DH.

Which would you choose between the following options for travelling between Osaka and Hiroshima:
1) 7500 yen and 6 hours
2) 10,000 yen and 1 hr 45 min
?

If your answer is the latter then you might take another look at japanrail.com for the JR West Sanyo area pass. It covers 4 days travel for 20,000 yen and includes Nozomi shinkansen which you could use between Shin Osaka and Hiroshima. You could also use it for the train between Hiroshima and Miyajimaguchi and, I expect but am not sure, the JR ferry to Miyajima. It can be purchased in Japan but I don't know if you have to have a tourist passport stamp to buy it. If you combined it with travel to Kyoto and/or Kansai airport then you would squeeze some extra value out of it.

For using hyperdia for your travel planning in Fukui-ken, you can use "Mikuni(Fukui)" as a destination for getting close to Tojimbo, according to the JNTO directions. For Echizen Ono use "Echizenono" and you will see that you can take JR all the way.

Actually, there is a bus center in downtown Hiroshima that is convenient to the Peace Park. Just a 5 or 10 minute walk. Getting to the PP from Hiroshima station requires riding a street car for several stops.

i,m travelling in japan in the last week
of march. and plan to do kyoto,hakone,
takayama and tokyo.landing in narita.I was told the JR pass for 7 days should take me to all these places.My doubts are would I be allowed to travel in the
shinkasen betw tokyo and kyoto.Can someone enlighten me about Ryokans reasonably priced in these areas and a probable tour plan for 7 days.Thnx