Philip

<BR>We are leaving for Beijing, Yangtze and Shanghai on March 10th. It is our 2nd trip. We love Chinese antiques and plan on visiting the Liulichang district. Does anybody have any advice with what would be considered good bargaining discounts in the nice antique shops? Is Yueyatang for old objets d'art still open?<BR><BR>We will have a guide. Once we find an item we like, should we try to bargain for our best deal ~ then him try his hand? I am concerned our guide may try to strike a deal with the owner for a commission instead of trying to get us a better deal.<BR><BR>Any thoughts?<BR><BR>Thanks ~ Philip

Patty

It's been a very long time since I've been to Liulichang, but just a general observation - it seemed like the farther back you go down the street, the better the prices and the more willing the merchants were to come down on the price. It's usually better to do your own bargaining. Your guide may not be willing to bargain on your behalf, and even if he was, how do you know his bargaining skills are any better than yours?

Peter N-H

You should only shop in Liulichang if you already very knowledgeable about Chinese antiques, if you are just buying cheap souvenirs, or if you really don't care too much about price or authenticity.<BR><BR>The presence of credit card stickers in many shop windows should be enough to warn you off. Liulichang antique galleries are really places where foreigners who have no idea whatsoever of real local prices are separated from large sums for fake items.<BR><BR>Mind you, this description fits almost anywhere in mainland China selling antiques where foreigners are are expected. In general, you are better off in Hollywood Road, Hong Kong, but even then it's best to have a personal introduction from someone known as a serious customer.<BR><BR>If you want to shop in Beijing, however, you'd be better off trying some of the following:<BR><BR>The Panjiayuan weekend market. This is very colourful, with a wide range of practical goods as well as curios and antiques. Go early in the morning for the best stock. Although the market is now quite widely known to foreign visitors, prices still start lower than Liulichang, say only five to ten times what they should be, rather than ten to fifteen times in Liulichang.<BR><BR>Just south of Panjiayuan on the Third Ring Road you'll find Curio City, several stories of shops, some specialising in antiques and objets d'art from particular regions, such as Tibet. Again, it's all caveat emptor, but here the more serious antiques (or copies of them) are to be found, and this is much more aimed at (or aimed at fooling) the serious buyer than Liulichang is.<BR><BR>Another possibility would be a day trip to neighbouring Tianjin to the Shenyang Dao Jiuhuo Shichang, an antiques (and 'antiques') street market which like Panjiayuan above has some activitie during the week, but is best at weekends. That the selection is better and the prices lower than Panjiayuan is a bit of an open secret, but there are certainly far fewer foreign faces there, which is always a good thing for prices.<BR><BR>Don't bother with a guide in any of these cases, since what you fear is very likely to come to pass. Stall keepers have calculators to display figures to you, or you can carry one yourself, or use a pen and paper.<BR><BR>But be warned: a charmingly distressed Song dynasty celadon glazed bowl for Y500, is a made last month, buried in the ground for a while, knock-off worth a maximum of Y30.<BR><BR>Hope that helps.<BR><BR>Peter Neville-Hadley<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Philip

<BR>Patty and Peter,<BR><BR>Thank you for your reply.<BR><BR>Peter (or Patty) is Shanghai any better for antiques?<BR><BR>Thanks Philip<BR>

Peter N-H

I'm not familiar with Shanghai antique markets, but Shanghai is the city that feels itself most at home with foreigners, and a top tourist destination, so the problems will be the same or worse, I imagine. You probably won't do better than the places I mentioned in Beijing and Tianjin.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Patty

Sorry, I have no experience shopping for antiques in Shanghai. Peter is right, there is a very good chance that you'll be ripped off. Sometimes the more expensive the item, the more likely it is to be fake. I shop for fun and stick to relatively inexpensive items. I don't do it because I think it's a good investment or will increase in value. Good luck!

Mr E Date

Peter is 100% correct when talking about purchasing antiques in China. I work for America's oldest auction house and when I was in China I couldn't believe how I was lied to about so-called "antiques." I couldn't control my laughter, the fakery was so obvious. <BR><BR>I did, however, go to a place in the French Consession in Sanghai that had some high-quality antiques for sale. It was an old mansion with rooms full of vitrines filled with beautiful objects. The prices were very high, however. But, even here I was lied to, albeit, not as badly as in other places. Too many Americans with money and no clue help kindle this market.

arianna

Interesting discussion. Does anyone know of a temporary antique market operating in Beijing? <BR><BR>During a visit there a couple of years ago I briefly passed a very busy tin-rooved market alongside a major highway. A friend in the diplomatic circle at that time told me this was a local open secret for supply of interesting antiques. <BR><BR>Sadly the friend has now moved out of touch and I have no recall of the road. To answer this one would probably have to be living there and an active collector. <BR><BR>It remains to say caveat emptor. But to anyone already over familiar with the well exposed sources aforementioned this tantalising possibility is an option. <BR><BR>Happy hunting!

Peter N-H

Diplomatic types rarely have much idea of what's going on at ground level, or of real costs.<BR><BR>The market in question was probably Panjiayuan, however, which can be seen from the east third ring road.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

arianna

Hello Peter N-H,<BR>Thanks for the reply. I think it is still something other than the well trodden Farmer's Market PanJiaYuan and I'll let you know.<BR><BR>BTW....Did you hear that the wonderful Hua Lai Gallery in Donghuamen is to be torn down in June due to redevelopment of the area? Sad sign of the times.

Peter N-H

The figure going the rounds of some journalists in Beijing at the moment is that by 2008 only 25 hutong (alleys) will be left, although no one has anything with which to substantiate this.<BR><BR>The Donghuamen area started to come down about two years ago and already there's a major new north-south road up that side of the Forbidden City. A parallel road on the other side has taken out most of what little remained of the wall around the Imperial City, which once enclosed the Forbidden City and all of the Bei, Zhong and Nan Hai.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html