Hasn't anyone been to Burma?
Jun 15th, 2006, 06:16 AM
#21
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Have you spoken to others who have relatives in Burma? There are some issues around contacting relatives in Burma as it may set them up to be watched more closely by the government. I know of someone who visits relatives there and has had to be exceptionally careful.
Jun 15th, 2006, 06:35 AM
#23
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Nooo...this is the first I have heard about it..and now I think I may be appearing naive.
My parents left Burma over 55 years ago and basically lost contact with many of their relatives except for those who migrated to other parts of the world.We don't have much to do with people who have recently migrated from Burma. I am going to have to follow this up.
My parents left Burma over 55 years ago and basically lost contact with many of their relatives except for those who migrated to other parts of the world.We don't have much to do with people who have recently migrated from Burma. I am going to have to follow this up.
Jun 15th, 2006, 07:17 AM
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Credit cards are basically not accepted, Nor are traveler checks and there are no ATMs.At least not if you're an american because we have an embargo so there are no american banks etc. Which is why you should pay for as much as possible ahead of time and you will do that by doing an international bank transfer -- probably to a bank in thailand. At least that's what I did with Gracious Myanmar. Other agencies may let you pay in cash when you get there -- I much prefer not having to travel with all that money.
And the money you bring must be NEW bills and they have to avoid certain serial numbers.
And the money you bring must be NEW bills and they have to avoid certain serial numbers.
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:04 AM
#26
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Last year we went to Myanmar:
1 night - Yangon
1 night - Kalaw
3 nights - Inle Lake
1 night - Yangon
We used Discovery Pass with Bangkok Air roundtrip BKK-Yangon. We prepaid our flights and hotels through Gracious Myanmar (which was recommended by GloriaIf). The cost to wire the money cost about $40. We enjoyed our mini trip and hope to return next year to visit Bagan and Mandalay.
To mingle with the people and to help out, I bought a souvenier at a roadside stop. The young salesman said to me "Do you have a gift for me?" "A pen?" I didn't have a pen so he asked if I had lipstick for his friend (a young saleslady). I went back to the car to get the extra new lipstick in my luggage for her. They all smiled and waved goodbue as we went on our journey.
I like going with a guide as they took us to villages. In one village as we were walking through, he was pointing out the different type of houses. A lady was there and she invited us into her home to view it. She did not ask for anything. When we left, I shook her hand and passed her a dollar. It was unnoticeable to others around. I heard a dollar goes a long way in Myanmar.
We also brought candy but I think there are better things to take. I would like to take a polaroid camera on our next trip and take photos to give back to the people.
Sometimes people say don't talk to the people who pass our flowers at temples.
A young child toss a string of flowers on my shoulder and then pranced away. I called that young child back and took a picture of her with my DH. We gave her a dollar. The picture is now on our computer as a screensaver
We tipped our guides very well.
The people are so friendly.
It's like a movie set, back in time.
You will have a wonderful time in Myanmar.
1 night - Yangon
1 night - Kalaw
3 nights - Inle Lake
1 night - Yangon
We used Discovery Pass with Bangkok Air roundtrip BKK-Yangon. We prepaid our flights and hotels through Gracious Myanmar (which was recommended by GloriaIf). The cost to wire the money cost about $40. We enjoyed our mini trip and hope to return next year to visit Bagan and Mandalay.
To mingle with the people and to help out, I bought a souvenier at a roadside stop. The young salesman said to me "Do you have a gift for me?" "A pen?" I didn't have a pen so he asked if I had lipstick for his friend (a young saleslady). I went back to the car to get the extra new lipstick in my luggage for her. They all smiled and waved goodbue as we went on our journey.
I like going with a guide as they took us to villages. In one village as we were walking through, he was pointing out the different type of houses. A lady was there and she invited us into her home to view it. She did not ask for anything. When we left, I shook her hand and passed her a dollar. It was unnoticeable to others around. I heard a dollar goes a long way in Myanmar.
We also brought candy but I think there are better things to take. I would like to take a polaroid camera on our next trip and take photos to give back to the people.
Sometimes people say don't talk to the people who pass our flowers at temples.
A young child toss a string of flowers on my shoulder and then pranced away. I called that young child back and took a picture of her with my DH. We gave her a dollar. The picture is now on our computer as a screensaver
We tipped our guides very well.
The people are so friendly.
It's like a movie set, back in time.
You will have a wonderful time in Myanmar.
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:22 AM
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Lipstick is a big thing there. Women love it.
I also highly recommend going into villages -- it was the highlight of our trip.
And, yes, we tipped very well. Everywhere -- in the hotels, in restaurants and with our guides and drivers. What is not a lot to us is a fortune to them. The Burmese are wonderful people and they are very poor. Somehow tipping for services and letting them decide how to spend the money seemed to make more sense than to bring things from here which they may or may not need or want. They need money -- first and foremost. And they need contact. We had people in hotels cry when we left.
I also highly recommend going into villages -- it was the highlight of our trip.
And, yes, we tipped very well. Everywhere -- in the hotels, in restaurants and with our guides and drivers. What is not a lot to us is a fortune to them. The Burmese are wonderful people and they are very poor. Somehow tipping for services and letting them decide how to spend the money seemed to make more sense than to bring things from here which they may or may not need or want. They need money -- first and foremost. And they need contact. We had people in hotels cry when we left.
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:36 PM
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Gloria,
Good post. Everyone has a personal opinon on how to contribute. For me guides in places such as India, Africa, Burma, Bali have all discouraged giving handouts, as a way not to encourage begging. I always go directly to a school to give pens, paper, and money..Also taking photos of the people guides and even hotel staff and sending it back to the tour operater, hotel manager or guide to give to the person or family is so appreciated.
I also enjoy just buying localy from the people. Some of my best memories are going into homes and buying directly. I would hate to count how many slingshots we ended up with at Inkle Lake. But the kids were so enthustic about teaching us and lots of giggles were exchanged.
The one thing I have realized is to respect the culture and there values.
Good post. Everyone has a personal opinon on how to contribute. For me guides in places such as India, Africa, Burma, Bali have all discouraged giving handouts, as a way not to encourage begging. I always go directly to a school to give pens, paper, and money..Also taking photos of the people guides and even hotel staff and sending it back to the tour operater, hotel manager or guide to give to the person or family is so appreciated.
I also enjoy just buying localy from the people. Some of my best memories are going into homes and buying directly. I would hate to count how many slingshots we ended up with at Inkle Lake. But the kids were so enthustic about teaching us and lots of giggles were exchanged.
The one thing I have realized is to respect the culture and there values.
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:49 PM
#30
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We were in Burma for 2 weeks, January 2005. We took the boat from Mandalay to Bagan. This is a very placid river, no waves, I can't imagine getting seasick. The 2 stops the boat makes are for 5 minutes to load-unload cargo at very muddy riverbanks. See pictures buten.net/max/index.html --click on Myanmar--click on Ayeyarwady. It is more likely that if you drive to Bagan you would be carsick. It is about 300 kms. on rough bumpy roads. It would probably take 7-8 hours without stopping. The boat only runs 3 or 4 days a week. Make sure you coordinate this with your trip planning.
I also noted your plans to drive to Inle. Bagan to Inle is quite a bit further than 300 kms. You would probably arrive close to dinner time. At most you would get a glance at the lake and then leave the next morning. It is an hour to the airport. To experience Inle you must be on the lake in a boat for at least a day. We were there 4 days and went out 3 full days. It is magical, but you need more time. For pictures--the same site, click on Inle Lake.
I also noted your plans to drive to Inle. Bagan to Inle is quite a bit further than 300 kms. You would probably arrive close to dinner time. At most you would get a glance at the lake and then leave the next morning. It is an hour to the airport. To experience Inle you must be on the lake in a boat for at least a day. We were there 4 days and went out 3 full days. It is magical, but you need more time. For pictures--the same site, click on Inle Lake.
Jun 16th, 2006, 02:36 AM
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Albaaust,
While it has become clear from your posts that your planned trip to Burma is much more than a tourist trip, and it is more of a personal journey for you, it isn't possible to travel to Burma and not support the junta. Proceeds from tourism goes into the coffers of the Junta.
<<<<<<There are some issues around contacting relatives in Burma as it may set them up to be watched more closely by the government. I know of someone who visits relatives there and has had to be exceptionally careful.>>>>>>>
Wise words from Kathie and indicative of the wider implications.
When I read trip plans or trip reports relating to travel in Burma which are totally tourist based, I sometimes fear that these plans may have been made with disregard to the situation in Burma.
<<<<<<ignorant generalizations and political stereotypes>>>>>>
Craig, while you may not like Fuzzy's style of posting, I think it is unwise to dismiss his post about travel to Burma in this way.
This balanced article might help anyone thinking of travelling to Burma to make an informed choice.
http://www.responsibletravel.com/Copy/Copy901093.htm
The publisher Rough Guides has adopted an ethical stance with regard to Burma:
"There are occasional instances where any benefits (from tourism) are overshadowed by the nature of the social and political climate. Apartheid South Africa was an example. Burma, with its brutal dictatorship, state control of the economy and forced labour used to build its tourist infrastructure, is another. As long as the military regime remains in power and Aung San Suu Kyi - leader of the democratically elected National League for Democracy - requests that tourists do not visit, Rough Guides will not publish a guide to the country."
While it has become clear from your posts that your planned trip to Burma is much more than a tourist trip, and it is more of a personal journey for you, it isn't possible to travel to Burma and not support the junta. Proceeds from tourism goes into the coffers of the Junta.
<<<<<<There are some issues around contacting relatives in Burma as it may set them up to be watched more closely by the government. I know of someone who visits relatives there and has had to be exceptionally careful.>>>>>>>
Wise words from Kathie and indicative of the wider implications.
When I read trip plans or trip reports relating to travel in Burma which are totally tourist based, I sometimes fear that these plans may have been made with disregard to the situation in Burma.
<<<<<<ignorant generalizations and political stereotypes>>>>>>
Craig, while you may not like Fuzzy's style of posting, I think it is unwise to dismiss his post about travel to Burma in this way.
This balanced article might help anyone thinking of travelling to Burma to make an informed choice.
http://www.responsibletravel.com/Copy/Copy901093.htm
The publisher Rough Guides has adopted an ethical stance with regard to Burma:
"There are occasional instances where any benefits (from tourism) are overshadowed by the nature of the social and political climate. Apartheid South Africa was an example. Burma, with its brutal dictatorship, state control of the economy and forced labour used to build its tourist infrastructure, is another. As long as the military regime remains in power and Aung San Suu Kyi - leader of the democratically elected National League for Democracy - requests that tourists do not visit, Rough Guides will not publish a guide to the country."
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:34 AM
#32
"The publisher Rough Guides has adopted an ethical stance with regard to Burma:
"There are occasional instances where any benefits (from tourism) are overshadowed by the nature of the social and political climate. Apartheid South Africa was an example. Burma, with its brutal dictatorship, state control of the economy and forced labour used to build its tourist infrastructure, is another. As long as the military regime remains in power and Aung San Suu Kyi - leader of the democratically elected National League for Democracy - requests that tourists do not visit, Rough Guides will not publish a guide to the country."
Kippy, I hope you are not implying that those of us who have been to Burma and those considering going are unethical. Many of us who went put a lot of thought into wheather we should go before making that decision. Although Burma's regime is among the worst, there are many others that are very bad as well but nobody seems to be bothered that tourism is encouraged. Take China for example, where "state secrecy" laws are used to jail Chinese journalists indefinately if the government perceives a story to be the slightest bit negative about them. No one is screaming not to go to China however. While people are somewhat free to make money in China, they are not free to speak openly. To me, this is not much better.
Going to Burma is a choice that people must make for themselves. Those of us who have chosen to go should not be made to feel we are guilty of something, or, as another poster said, too ignorant to know better because we are American. Statements like that are nothing more than unmitigated bigotry.
"There are occasional instances where any benefits (from tourism) are overshadowed by the nature of the social and political climate. Apartheid South Africa was an example. Burma, with its brutal dictatorship, state control of the economy and forced labour used to build its tourist infrastructure, is another. As long as the military regime remains in power and Aung San Suu Kyi - leader of the democratically elected National League for Democracy - requests that tourists do not visit, Rough Guides will not publish a guide to the country."
Kippy, I hope you are not implying that those of us who have been to Burma and those considering going are unethical. Many of us who went put a lot of thought into wheather we should go before making that decision. Although Burma's regime is among the worst, there are many others that are very bad as well but nobody seems to be bothered that tourism is encouraged. Take China for example, where "state secrecy" laws are used to jail Chinese journalists indefinately if the government perceives a story to be the slightest bit negative about them. No one is screaming not to go to China however. While people are somewhat free to make money in China, they are not free to speak openly. To me, this is not much better.
Going to Burma is a choice that people must make for themselves. Those of us who have chosen to go should not be made to feel we are guilty of something, or, as another poster said, too ignorant to know better because we are American. Statements like that are nothing more than unmitigated bigotry.
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:43 AM
#33
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Again, there is no question that when you go to Burma some of your money goes to the junta but if you plan and think carefully, more can go to the people. I highly respect and admire "the lady" and, in fact, had a meeting with her for two hours when I went to Burma the first time -- arranged for me by a friend living here who aggressively works for the democracy movement. When I first met her and started working to effect change in Burma she urged me to stay out of the country. But her position as well as those of various democracy movement groups have changed over the years. Reason -- the embargo and people staying away have not worked. The junta is getting stronger and the people are getting poorer. They are now looking at countries like China where the worst period for the people was during the cultural revolution when they were isolated. When people started coming, the people benefited and while the country is still repressive, it is less. The burmese I met all said -- tell people about us. Please tell them to come. I have spent my entire life fighting for human rights both personally and recently professionally. One thing I've learned -- before you can have civil rights you need to have food and shelter. People care about the basics first -- they want to have healthy children. They want to be able to feed them and to live in something other than abject poverty. The isolation we have inflicted on Burma has made that poverty worse not better and I have made the decision that I will do whatever I can to aleviate it.
I respect those who make other decisions as long as the decision is made thoughtfully and rationally. I do not respect those who condemn others for doing careful research and coming up with a different position.
I suspect no one has read more on the subject of Burma or has spent as much time (non tourist related) raising money and working with advocates to effect change. I have friends who frequently go into the jungles (illegally) to help the hill tribes and others who are working on the thai border with refugees. I talk to all of them regularly and carefully about this issue and good people working towards the same goal have differences of opinion when it comes to tourism. There is no one answer. Everyone needs to decide for themselves but they should do it by doing a LOT of reading on both sides and should also really learn what is going on in the country.
I respect those who make other decisions as long as the decision is made thoughtfully and rationally. I do not respect those who condemn others for doing careful research and coming up with a different position.
I suspect no one has read more on the subject of Burma or has spent as much time (non tourist related) raising money and working with advocates to effect change. I have friends who frequently go into the jungles (illegally) to help the hill tribes and others who are working on the thai border with refugees. I talk to all of them regularly and carefully about this issue and good people working towards the same goal have differences of opinion when it comes to tourism. There is no one answer. Everyone needs to decide for themselves but they should do it by doing a LOT of reading on both sides and should also really learn what is going on in the country.
Jun 16th, 2006, 04:38 AM
#34
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This is the 'ba' part of the albaust partnership. It was with a big 'ho hum' that I left my work, at Al's request, to have a look at the responses to her questions on this noticeboard. Now, without a breath of 'ho hum' left, I want to thank respondents for contributing to a generous information exchange and for sharing thoughts on the ethical issues associated with tourism that should be stated openly and more often.
We have researched the situation in Burma and discussed it with Burmese friends and relatives. The consensus is that it is better to visit Burma and work against the isolation of the Burmese people than to stay away.
We have researched the situation in Burma and discussed it with Burmese friends and relatives. The consensus is that it is better to visit Burma and work against the isolation of the Burmese people than to stay away.
Jun 16th, 2006, 04:50 AM
#35
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I too appreciate the both the positive and negative thoughts expressed here on visiting Burma. We do intend to go next February.
Kippy, I was not dismissing fuzzy's position on Myanmar but I was and will continue to be critical of his ignorant generalizations about Americans and in this instance, the OP.
Kippy, I was not dismissing fuzzy's position on Myanmar but I was and will continue to be critical of his ignorant generalizations about Americans and in this instance, the OP.
Jun 16th, 2006, 04:56 AM
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Laurieco and Glorialf,
Thank you for your considered responses to my post. I visit this board regularly and respect your contributions. If my post has caused you personal offense then I apologise without reserve.
Of course the decision to travel to Burma or not is a personal one, but it is so important that in this instance that it is a fully informed decision.
My posting was intended to put the topic of travel to Burma into the wider context rather than just tourism. If my posting has caused upset and alienation then that is inexcusable.
Thank you for your considered responses to my post. I visit this board regularly and respect your contributions. If my post has caused you personal offense then I apologise without reserve.
Of course the decision to travel to Burma or not is a personal one, but it is so important that in this instance that it is a fully informed decision.
My posting was intended to put the topic of travel to Burma into the wider context rather than just tourism. If my posting has caused upset and alienation then that is inexcusable.
Jun 16th, 2006, 06:01 AM
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Kippy, I'm glad you posted. As many on this board know, I have planned trips to Burma 4 different times and have ended up cancelling each time because of the political situation. My stance is that it is important to consider the impact of one's travel to Burma. I know that some people, with careful consideration will opt to go to Burma, others, looking at the same information, will opt not to. Those people who have carefully considered the situation and opt to go will try to minimize the amount of their money that goes to the junta. They will endeavor to make contact with locals in a way that does not threaten to make the locals the target of increased government surveillance (or worse).
(By the way, a number of us have "chatted" about this before, including myself, Gloria, Craig and Laurie. You can search for previous posts on this topic.)
I worry when somone wants to go to Burma but refuses to consider the political situation. The junta has a policy of eradication of several of the minority groups in the country. The government uses forced labor to build many governemnt projects. There are whole areas of the country that are off limits to travelers. The junta says it's beacsue of "bandits" - it's because they don't want travelers to witness the atrocities of the military against the Burmese people.
For others considering travel to Burma, I'd suggest the Lonely Planet's article on whther or not to travel to Burma as a good, thought-provoking article. I'd also recommend taking a look at www.freeburma.org
(By the way, a number of us have "chatted" about this before, including myself, Gloria, Craig and Laurie. You can search for previous posts on this topic.)
I worry when somone wants to go to Burma but refuses to consider the political situation. The junta has a policy of eradication of several of the minority groups in the country. The government uses forced labor to build many governemnt projects. There are whole areas of the country that are off limits to travelers. The junta says it's beacsue of "bandits" - it's because they don't want travelers to witness the atrocities of the military against the Burmese people.
For others considering travel to Burma, I'd suggest the Lonely Planet's article on whther or not to travel to Burma as a good, thought-provoking article. I'd also recommend taking a look at www.freeburma.org
Jun 16th, 2006, 11:57 AM
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Kippy, I am disappointed that you did not apologize to me. Calling someone unwise is offensive and is the same as if I called you stupid. If indeed you do visit this board regularly then you would know that I am one that wants to do something positive for the locals at every destination I visit. I truly believe that there is no benefit to isolating the people of Myanmar. I also feel that there are human rights problems throughout the world and that governments are selective about how they deal with this. For example, many European countries (maybe not the UK) have an economic relationship with Iran so they in essence support the repressive regime there. I am sure you can agree that Iranians would surely benefit by the influence of outsiders.
Jun 16th, 2006, 02:26 PM
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Craig,
If you look at the timings of our latest posts this morning, when I started my second post only Laurieco and Glorialf's posts were there. I had to go and deal with something else while typing and as I have a very slow internet connection hadn't refreshed to find your and albaaust's posts.
If I had, of course I would have addressed you also. I am sorry when I misunderstood you when I thought you were dismissing Fuzzy's stance on Myanmar when you referred to his post, rather than making a more general point.
While I agree with you absolutely that there are human rights problems throughout the world, Burma has a particularly bad record and some of its atrocities have been carried out just to enable tourism. The lady herself has requested that tourists stay away.
The last thing I intended to do was to get personal about anybody's considered and informed decisions. The situation in Burma is something that simmers away in the background of my consciousness. Like I said before, I just wanted to put the subject of travel to Burma into the bigger picture.
Kathie, thank you for your response. I hadn't seen any chats before on this subject just more tourist based posts. I will get round to searching them out and reading them. I am heartened to see the other thread tapping into Gloria's particular wealth of knowledge on the subject.
Craig, while I probably don't read all your or anyone elses posts, I did follow your fairly recent trip report and your experiences with Ponheary in Siem Reap. I appreciated that and your also your subsequent open reflections.
albaaust, thank you for your response too - both of you! I hope that your original post hasn't gotten completely lost in all this.
If you look at the timings of our latest posts this morning, when I started my second post only Laurieco and Glorialf's posts were there. I had to go and deal with something else while typing and as I have a very slow internet connection hadn't refreshed to find your and albaaust's posts.
If I had, of course I would have addressed you also. I am sorry when I misunderstood you when I thought you were dismissing Fuzzy's stance on Myanmar when you referred to his post, rather than making a more general point.
While I agree with you absolutely that there are human rights problems throughout the world, Burma has a particularly bad record and some of its atrocities have been carried out just to enable tourism. The lady herself has requested that tourists stay away.
The last thing I intended to do was to get personal about anybody's considered and informed decisions. The situation in Burma is something that simmers away in the background of my consciousness. Like I said before, I just wanted to put the subject of travel to Burma into the bigger picture.
Kathie, thank you for your response. I hadn't seen any chats before on this subject just more tourist based posts. I will get round to searching them out and reading them. I am heartened to see the other thread tapping into Gloria's particular wealth of knowledge on the subject.
Craig, while I probably don't read all your or anyone elses posts, I did follow your fairly recent trip report and your experiences with Ponheary in Siem Reap. I appreciated that and your also your subsequent open reflections.
albaaust, thank you for your response too - both of you! I hope that your original post hasn't gotten completely lost in all this.
