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thursdaysd Aug 24th, 2013 05:44 AM

Gang rape in India. Again.

Pity I got that 10 year visa....

annhig Aug 24th, 2013 12:09 PM

thursdays, there was an interesting report on woman's hour [BBC radio 4 daily at 10am] this week which co-incided with this horrible report, about how skin whitening is still endemic in India, with girls being encouraged to whiten their skin to get a "better" husband. "Eve teasing" and worse is also prevalent.

all symptomatic of the same attitude to women. Why is it that when these events occur, it is women's freedom that is curtailed. there would soon be an outcry if men were told to stay indoors.

rhkkmk - you might want to reflect upon why your remark was highly inappropriate.

Craig Aug 24th, 2013 12:26 PM

Please lighten up, thursdays and annhig. Yes, this is horrible but presumably thursdays will return to India sometime in the next 10 years and will be cautious about where she ventures. After all, Indian men's attitude toward women isn't exactly a new development. Of course, us western men don't have a clue as to how strongly you feel about this so we can only try to understand. There are many backward countries besides India where women are treated poorly or worse. I'm not sure avoiding them all as tourists would accomplish much, other than to deprive you of the positive experiences that are always there.

thursdaysd Aug 24th, 2013 01:04 PM

"Please lighten up, thursdays and annhig."

Another man who totally doesn't get it. Just what, pray tell, is "light" about rape? About gang rape? What if you were threatened with it?

"presumably thursdays will return to India sometime in the next 10 years"

I have already spent a total of four months in India over two visits, traveling solo. The probability of my doing so again is significantly reduced by these incidents.

"will be cautious about where she ventures"

Why should I visit a country where that is necessary in most areas when there are plenty of others that are safer. It is not women who should be curtailing their behavior it is MEN who should be trained better.

rhkkmk Aug 24th, 2013 02:30 PM

craig, lighten up and keep your comments to yourself

kikiv Aug 24th, 2013 04:14 PM

One can only imagine how many rape victims never come forward.

As in the case of the Swiss tourist and the student who died last year, this young woman was not even alone. They were all accompanied by men.

No matter how sympathetic a man is he will never understand just how vulnerable women are any where in the world.

Below are some rape statistics from the Dep't of Justice.
I was surprised to see Sweden as #3 among the countries with the highest rape rates. India is not on the list and the U.S is #6.

crellston Aug 24th, 2013 06:25 PM

I see they caught one of the men responsible. Hopefully they will catch the others and sentence them to long periods in prison where, if there is any natural justice, they will be subjected to gang rape, day after day. Perhaps then they will begin to understand what these women went through and maybe it will act as a deterrent to others.

Craig Aug 24th, 2013 06:59 PM

My point is just being reinforced by the comments above. Abuse of women occurs everywhere as has been pointed out in kikiv's statistics above. These incidents in India have not been well reported until recently but now they have been and hopefully things will change. They have of course been going on for a long time. Where exactly do you intend to travel to avoid this? There are dicey neighborhoods all over the planet where trouble lurks...

RajSharma Aug 24th, 2013 08:23 PM

The recent rape cases have been horrible and even one such incident can not be justified but will it be fair to a beautiful country like India to be avoided considering that every woman who comes here get hassled and attacked? If we will travel with such an attitude then no place is safe in this world because there is always a fear of being robbed or shot or raped. Such incidents can only stop when people would stand against not stepping back.

thursdaysd Aug 24th, 2013 09:09 PM

To suggest that all countries are equally dangerous is just silly.

annhig Aug 25th, 2013 03:07 AM

kiviv - those stats are interesting, and to me, counter-intuitive.

I wonder if Sweden's being 3rd in the list reflects their feeling more comfortable reporting rapes?

Egypt and Syria being on the "least no of rapes" list seems unlikely too, but that may reflect conditions as they were, not as they are now. or very low reporting rates.

Raj - yes it is a shame for countries where there are many wonderful things to see, that people are deterred from visiting by fears for their personal security. But I well understand how Thursdaysd feels, as a woman travelling alone in places that can be very different to what she is used to at home.

Craig - you might well say that nowhere is safe, but at home, or in places where one feels more at home, it can be easier to sense where is safe, and where not. We were thinking about a trip to India, but we may well "park" it until they have sorted themselves out, and stick to Europe instead, and I'd be surprised if we were alone in that.

thursdaysd Aug 25th, 2013 06:11 AM

ann - I suspect that Sweden is high on the list on the basis of a much broader definition of rape. I suspect places like Syria are lower because women would be ruined by reporting rape, and possibly forced to marry the rapist. It is also likely that in countries like Sweden - and the US - there is more assault that falls in the "date rape" category, whereas in places like India it is more likely to be actual stranger rape, as in this case. For a traveler, stranger rape is obviously more worrying.

dgunbug Aug 25th, 2013 06:52 AM

Thursday - I'm with you. Glad I had the opportunity to visit India and had intended on returning, but will not do so anytime soon based on these reports. Agree also that statistics are very deceiving.

kikiv Aug 25th, 2013 07:33 AM

@annhig I was also surprised by the stats and as I pointed out earlier, strongly suspect that many more incidences of rape go unreported in countries such as India, Syria etc where women are likely shunned by their community and somehow considered damaged goods after being raped.

I will be travelling to India with my husband and daughter next month and am also seriously concerned about our safety after the recent gang rapes against strangers but on the other hand I refuse to allow myself to live in fear.

jacketwatch Aug 25th, 2013 08:27 AM

Kiviv: where in India will U be going to? We will be there in early Oct. if you will be in Delhi say mid Oct. maybe we can have lunch.

kikiv Aug 25th, 2013 09:14 AM

Larry we will be in Delhi on 10/25 for a day before flying back home. Will you still be there?
Prior to then we will be traveling in Kolkata, West Bengal, Bihar, Orissa and Hardwar.

thursdaysd Aug 25th, 2013 09:37 AM

kikiv - sounds like an interesting trip, will you be posting a TR? I'd like to know how the Scheduled Tribes museum in Bhubaneshwar is doing.

jacketwatch Aug 25th, 2013 09:37 AM

Actually we won't be, sorry. We are due to arrive back in the US from BKK that day after a week there preceded by 2 wks. in India.

Enjoy. :-)

kikiv Aug 25th, 2013 10:47 AM

thursdaysd I think you are very brave to travel alone as you do. I really enjoy reading about your experiences and actually subscribed to your blog.
Although I am not as eloquent as you and many others whose reports I have read on this forum,I plan to share my impressions about my upcoming trip as there isn't much written about those areas on here.

Like you, we are going to be in Kolkata for Durga Puja and Bhubaneshwar is among one the cities in Orissa we will be visiting. I will be certain to give you an update of the museum.

Larry too bad we won't coincide in Delhi, perhaps on our next trip to India. I hope you enjoy your trip.

Elizabeth Aug 25th, 2013 11:21 AM

The one good in this horrible story is this: the Mumbai police responded with alacrity and professionalism, and have apparently found all five suspects, including one who had fled to Delhi. Which might be a daunting proposition in a country of this size, or anywhere really. There is no public ambivalence here, everyone is outraged about the rapists and supportive of the woman. The public response to these things is huge.

This you could not have expected in India even very recently, nor in the US for that matter as recently as 40 years ago, when a rape victim was still forced into a grey zone of interrogation of her "character" (as represented by her sexual behavior).

In the present climate, it is finally starting to be the case that rapists are recognized as criminals, victims as victims.

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